Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
On Tue, 12 May 2020 07:34:08 +0200, Fabrizio Diversi via Ql-Users wrote: > I am in the middle of multiple tests with CF/IDE and SD/IDE readers with > different type/size of CF and SD > > Few words about the 2 machine I am using : > > - Q40 with 1 IDE controller card with primary channel (master/slave) and > secondary (master/slave) on the same Card so in total 4 IDE devices: Wow, you are lucky to have one of those !... They were pretty rare, even back in the 90s, when the ISA bus was reigning in PCs. I never could get my hands on any in France, and I did search a lot ! > as primary master I have a classic 80 GB IDE HD (2 atari partition), as > slave I have a CDROM. On the secondary channel as a master I have an > IDE/CF adapter. (StarTech 3.5 Drive Bay IDE to single CF SSD adapter > card reader). The second ISA slot is occupied by ethernet card. SMSQ/E > 2.92 on rom, then I load newer SMSQ/E (3.36) from primary master disk. > All the different combination of CF/SD I use on the StarTech are fine. > The system is working well and stable . Q40 is very tolerant with any > CF/SD reader I tried to used: I also replaced main primary (master) > classic 80 GB with a single SD reader (Kalea Informatique - Adapteur > Convertisseur IDE 3.5 40 pin vers SD Card) and also everything works > fine. Which makes me wonder whether this could be a problem with the IDE controller on the ISA card, since it is this controller that "speaks" with the IDE devices... Yours could be of better quality, or have a wider range/more tolerant timings than mine... I might give a try with another multi I/O card, and see if I get better results with it. So far, whichever CF Card I plugged into the passive CF-Card to IDE adapter failed with I/O errors and lost interrupts reported by Linux and corrupted data when using them under SMSQ/E. I also received and tried with these two items in chain: 1.- IDE to SATA adapter: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00EOJNGC2 2.- SATA to SDHC card adapter: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0033RB2KE Here again, a total failure... Note that the IDE to SATA adapter works just fine under Linux when a SATA HD is plugged in it, but causes immediate crash under SMSQ/E as soon as I try to access the HD in any way (even for reading a single sector). Truth to be told, the ATA driver is very loosely (with regards to the ATA protocol) implemented in SMSQ/E (I know first hand, for when I wrote the ATAPI CD-ROM driver for the Q60, I came across problems due to failures to respect the DRQ and BUSY bits by the ATA driver of SMSQ/E, and I had to recourse to slower transfer methods in atomic (supervisor only) mode in my own driver to avoid data corruptions and crashes). I returned #2 to Amazon, and kept #1 (I'll use it for the PC in which sits my QXL). > - Q60: SMSQ/E 2.98 on Rom, 2 IDE cards ESIO v2.1, no ethernet. I had > also in the past a 2 slot ISA riser card to use the 2 IDE controller at > the same time with ethernet card (used with linux Shoestring), but at > the moment I removed the riser card (and linux) and I use the 2 IDE > cards in the single ISA slotᅵ with no Ethernet. An ISA riser/extender would be a nice thing to have... Sadly, they seem to sell at deliriously high prices, when you can find one on Internet. > as slave I have a toshiba 4GB SD inserted into a passive CF2SD adapter > type II (K komputer K Bay). Passive ?... I doubt it... SD cards got a serial interface, while CF cards got a parallel one (IDE-compatible). I could not find the "F2SD adapter type II K komputer K Bay" adapter on Internet. Probably not sold any more... :-/ Regards, Thierry. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
> If it is the drives, well, that's the problem Thierry has mentioned. By the way I doubt the ISA bus reset is required, which is adding to the delay. Neither QDOS Classic nor my own Utility ROMs use it. Never seen any issue. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Hi, > I could be wrong, and for sure I am, but I noted that smsq/e 3.36b in > eprom boots in an instant and I suspect that smsq/e 3.36 start so fast > that sometime for unknown reasons hangs before the boot, this explain > the few hangs I have. > Apart from spinning up mechanical drives, I don't quite understand why a faster boot would create any problems. And you said you boot from a CF card. If it is the drives, well, that's the problem Thierry has mentioned. The version you have should have the option to delay the boot process for a few seconds (in the WIN config section). If you wait a bit there, does that make a difference (when you get the new Eproms) ? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Well, you can bring up the OS from ROM without working mass storage. That's definitely an advantage, especially for the early days, when we didn't have fast storage (i.e. floppy only). Compared to the Atari, that's ROM-TOS vs. Disk-TOS (but not running from ROM) Tobias > Am 12.05.2020 um 19:12 schrieb Ralf Reköndt via Ql-Users > : > > A simple bootstrap loader would do the trick, right? Why a complete SMSQ/E in > EPROM? As far as I remind, TT has written such one, having it it one of my TT > disks (for Atari). > > Am 12.05.2020 um 18:28 schrieb Peter Graf via Ql-Users: >> Ralf Reköndt via Ql-Users wrote: >>> Hmm, so why use it in an EPROM? >> You need some kind of ROM to boot the machine and load the OS. This can be a >> separate loader, like inside the Q68, but then it needs to access mass >> storage to load the OS. In case of the Q40 and Q60, the OS can boot >> completely without any mass storage, which is faster. >> ___ QL-Users Mailing List > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Yep, I am using last version of 3.36b. I revert back to initial original eprom, waiting the brand new Eprom (10 items exactly the same) i ordered from China Unfortunately I bought 4 eprom second hand from eBay, they are branded ST M27C1024 12F even if they look different from external: 2 have round window and 2 have rectangular window. Moreover the programmer (Signstek TL866II Plus)fails if I check the "Check ID" button, well it fails for 3 of them and for the remaining one it pass, not a good sign. As I said in the previous post using SMSQ/E 3.36b in eprom and booting the QXL.WIN from the Syba SD-ADA45006 CF reader _works most of the time,_ but sometime Q60 stops at initial screen (white/red) not moving forward and I need to switch off/on again. When Q60 start, I also tried to lrespr again 3.36b but apparently nothing change. In summary booting from old eprom (differently from Thierry) I have a very stable situation even if i exchange the different CF/SD readers I have at home (4), all of them works. Booting from new 3.36 eprom I have experienced sometime (very few) hangs at initial screen with Syba reader, and replacing it with the other CF/SD readers even worst getting a blank screen and nothing else. I could be wrong, and for sure I am, but I noted that smsq/e 3.36b in eprom boots in an instant and I suspect that smsq/e 3.36 start so fast that sometime for unknown reasons hangs before the boot, this explain the few hangs I have. Thats all for the moment, waiting the new eprom for restart the tests. Fabrizio On 12/05/2020 13:14, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote: Hi, Yes, thanks, that will be in the next version of SMSQE. I sent Fabrizio a preview version with that fix already included, I presume that is what Fabrizio is using I'm not sure whether that is his problem, though. Woflgang Just a question - what happens if you re-load (per LRESPR ,not automatically at boot time) Yes, I was about to ask the same question, but you bet me to it. It is probably the same issue as the one I encountered with my HD that is too slow to show up on the IDE bus when SMSQ/E v3 is cold-booted from the ROM. LRESPRing again SMSQ/E v3.36 would definitely expose this, if the card is seen after such a warm reboot. I'm posting again here (but in-lined, this time, since the list does not propagate attachments) the (quick and dirty) patch I made for my HD and SMSQ/E in EPROM, and which introduces a 5s delay before querying the IDE drives on boot: --- diff -durN smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm --- smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-16 09:30:29.0 +0200 +++ smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-21 21:47:22.0 +0200 @@ -83,6 +83,13 @@ jsr hd_1sec move.l d0,hdl_1sec(a3) + move.l d5,-(sp) + move.w #250,d5 ; wait 5 seconds (250 frames) +wait5s + jsr hd_1sec + dbrad5,wait5s + move.l (sp)+,d5 + lea q40_wn1+2,a0; configured name lea hdl_end(a3),a1 ; names lie after device defn (linkage) block bsr norm_nm ; copy & normalise name - Thierry. ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
A simple bootstrap loader would do the trick, right? Why a complete SMSQ/E in EPROM? As far as I remind, TT has written such one, having it it one of my TT disks (for Atari). Am 12.05.2020 um 18:28 schrieb Peter Graf via Ql-Users: Ralf Reköndt via Ql-Users wrote: Hmm, so why use it in an EPROM? You need some kind of ROM to boot the machine and load the OS. This can be a separate loader, like inside the Q68, but then it needs to access mass storage to load the OS. In case of the Q40 and Q60, the OS can boot completely without any mass storage, which is faster. ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Ralf Reköndt via Ql-Users wrote: > Hmm, so why use it in an EPROM? You need some kind of ROM to boot the machine and load the OS. This can be a separate loader, like inside the Q68, but then it needs to access mass storage to load the OS. In case of the Q40 and Q60, the OS can boot completely without any mass storage, which is faster. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users wrote: > Fabrizio Diversi via Ql-Users wrote: >> This issue seems to address newer SMSQ/E in Eprom, I used second >> hand ST M27C1024 eprom 120ns. I ordered completely new eprom from >> China the same Brand but with 100ns.not sure where is the >> problem. > > SMSQ/E never executes from EPROM, it is always copied to RAM first. So > any problem with the EPROM would certainly result in an instant crash. Since the Q60 has no separate loader like the Q68, SMSQ/E has to execute from EPROM at first, to do the copying. If the EPROM has a timing problem on the borderline, it is possible that only very little data is corrupted during the copying process from ROM to RAM. Which could result in something that is not an immediate crash. (I'm not saying it is a timing problem.) ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Hmm, so why use it in an EPROM? Am 12.05.2020 um 15:48 schrieb Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users: Fabrizio Diversi via Ql-Users wrote: This issue seems to address newer SMSQ/E in Eprom, I used second hand ST M27C1024 eprom 120ns. I ordered completely new eprom from China the same Brand but with 100ns.not sure where is the problem. SMSQ/E never executes from EPROM, it is always copied to RAM first. So any problem with the EPROM would certainly result in an instant crash. But once it boots the EPROM is not used again anyway. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Fabrizio Diversi via Ql-Users wrote: > This issue seems to address newer SMSQ/E in Eprom, I used second > hand ST M27C1024 eprom 120ns. I ordered completely new eprom from > China the same Brand but with 100ns.not sure where is the > problem. SMSQ/E never executes from EPROM, it is always copied to RAM first. So any problem with the EPROM would certainly result in an instant crash. But once it boots the EPROM is not used again anyway. Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Hi, Yes, thanks, that will be in the next version of SMSQE. I sent Fabrizio a preview version with that fix already included, I presume that is what Fabrizio is using I'm not sure whether that is his problem, though. Woflgang > >> Just a question - what happens if you re-load (per LRESPR ,not >> automatically at boot time) > > Yes, I was about to ask the same question, but you bet me to it. > > It is probably the same issue as the one I encountered with my HD that > is too slow to show up on the IDE bus when SMSQ/E v3 is cold-booted > from the ROM. > > LRESPRing again SMSQ/E v3.36 would definitely expose this, if the card > is seen after such a warm reboot. > > I'm posting again here (but in-lined, this time, since the list does > not propagate attachments) the (quick and dirty) patch I made for my > HD and SMSQ/E in EPROM, and which introduces a 5s delay before querying > the IDE drives on boot: > > --- > diff -durN smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm > smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm > --- smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-16 09:30:29.0 +0200 > +++ smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-21 21:47:22.0 > +0200 > @@ -83,6 +83,13 @@ > jsr hd_1sec > move.l d0,hdl_1sec(a3) > > + move.l d5,-(sp) > + move.w #250,d5 ; wait 5 seconds (250 frames) > +wait5s > + jsr hd_1sec > + dbrad5,wait5s > + move.l (sp)+,d5 > + > lea q40_wn1+2,a0; configured name > lea hdl_end(a3),a1 ; names lie after device defn (linkage) > block > bsr norm_nm ; copy & normalise name > - > > Thierry. > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List > ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
On Tue, 12 May 2020 10:27:07 +0200, Wolfgang Lenerz via Ql-Users wrote: > Just a question - what happens if you re-load (per LRESPR ,not > automatically at boot time) Yes, I was about to ask the same question, but you bet me to it. It is probably the same issue as the one I encountered with my HD that is too slow to show up on the IDE bus when SMSQ/E v3 is cold-booted from the ROM. LRESPRing again SMSQ/E v3.36 would definitely expose this, if the card is seen after such a warm reboot. I'm posting again here (but in-lined, this time, since the list does not propagate attachments) the (quick and dirty) patch I made for my HD and SMSQ/E in EPROM, and which introduces a 5s delay before querying the IDE drives on boot: --- diff -durN smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm --- smsqe336src/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-16 09:30:29.0 +0200 +++ smsqe336src-patched/dv3/q40/hd/init.asm 2020-04-21 21:47:22.0 +0200 @@ -83,6 +83,13 @@ jsr hd_1sec move.l d0,hdl_1sec(a3) + move.l d5,-(sp) + move.w #250,d5 ; wait 5 seconds (250 frames) +wait5s + jsr hd_1sec + dbrad5,wait5s + move.l (sp)+,d5 + lea q40_wn1+2,a0; configured name lea hdl_end(a3),a1 ; names lie after device defn (linkage) block bsr norm_nm ; copy & normalise name - Thierry. ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] Memory cards and the Q60 (was Re: SMSQE 3.36)
Hi, (...) > - Same Q60 as before but with SMSQ/e 3.36 on rom..here the situation > is more complex. (...) Just a question - what happens if you re-load (per LRESPR ,not automatically at boot time) 1 - the same version of SMSQ/E as the one in your Eproms? 2 - the same as the one you would load when in the first configuration (if they are not the same) Does that change anything? Wolfgang ___ QL-Users Mailing List