Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steven Frederick]

I don't think it does but folding tires generally have higher end
compounds, sidewalls, etc, so they roll faster for that reason not the
folding bead...


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 10:49 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I still don't get how the bead affects the ride quality, whether for
> comfort or speed. Can anyone explain? From Jan's testing it would seem that
> the principal variable by an order of magnitude is casing construction.
>
> But I'd like to know if it does, 'cuz if it does, I need to swap out the
> wire bead Kojaks on the '03 for folding ones.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:52 PM, RJM  wrote:
>
>>  I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday.
>> The look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it.
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/22/2014 03:46 PM, RJM wrote:
I don't know if the bead affects performance, my suspicions would be 
that it doesn't, but I don't like wire beads because I find them 
harder to get onto a rim and I find them harder to pack for a spare. 
On longer rides and tours I often bring a spare tire and tube...wire 
beaded tires just don't work for that.


Back in the day, that's all we had; and there definitely is a way to 
make them work as spares.  You triple-coil them, just as places like 
Nashbar do for shipping today, and affix them on top of your luggage.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[jimmy johnsen]

Maybe we should ask Graham Obree about tires. At 50 years young isn't he still 
trying to break land speed records?Have you ever tried folding a wire bead? It 
can be done but it's easy to bend/crimp the wire. Can't see how that would sit 
straight after it's been crimped. On the other hand tubulars are cemented to a 
rim creating a solid bond! Track riders also solder their spokes together 
creating a very stiff wheel. They are high maintenance but are making a come 
back. Try changing a tubular in 15 degree weather. It's a bitch. Folding tires 
come closer to tubulars without the work involved. If your a pro and have 
someone changing tires for you it's a no brainer. But the market is driven by 
amateurs so folding bead rules. 



On Saturday, March 22, 2014 3:46 PM, RJM  wrote:
  
I don't know if the bead affects performance, my suspicions would be that it 
doesn't, but I don't like wire beads because I find them harder to get onto a 
rim and I find them harder to pack for a spare. On longer rides and tours I 
often bring a spare tire and tube...wire beaded tires just don't work for that. 

On Friday, March 21, 2014 9:49:54 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
I still don't get how the bead affects the ride quality, whether for comfort or 
speed. Can anyone explain? From Jan's testing it would seem that the principal 
variable by an order of magnitude is casing construction.
>
>
>But I'd like to know if it does, 'cuz if it does, I need to swap out the wire 
>bead Kojaks on the '03 for folding ones.
>
>
>
>On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:52 PM, RJM  wrote:
>
>I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday. The 
>>look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it.   -- 
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>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
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>Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Etats Unis
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[RJM]

I don't know if the bead affects performance, my suspicions would be that 
it doesn't, but I don't like wire beads because I find them harder to get 
onto a rim and I find them harder to pack for a spare. On longer rides and 
tours I often bring a spare tire and tube...wire beaded tires just don't 
work for that. 

On Friday, March 21, 2014 9:49:54 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I still don't get how the bead affects the ride quality, whether for 
> comfort or speed. Can anyone explain? From Jan's testing it would seem that 
> the principal variable by an order of magnitude is casing construction.
>
> But I'd like to know if it does, 'cuz if it does, I need to swap out the 
> wire bead Kojaks on the '03 for folding ones.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:52 PM, RJM >wrote:
>
>>  I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday. 
>> The look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it. 
>>  
>> -- 
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>
>
>
> -- 
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>
>  

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Philip Williamson]

Cool bikes! I'm a big fan of the Big Apples, and found them happily fast, with 
the Liteskin version on the rear. The Big Apples wouldn't go tubeless on my 
rims, though. I will try the Supermotos, but I might need a second wheelset (or 
build another bike).

I know what you mean about motoring along. It's very satisfying to get in the 
groove on a big bike with fat tires. And the fact that your friends think 
they're a DISadvantage is also fun...

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

That makes sense to me, too.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Joe Broach  wrote:

> All,
>
> I don't see how a wire bead could affect performance beyond the slight
> weight difference. It just so happens most supple sidewall, thin tread
> tires are folding bead. At least I think so.
>
> Best,
> joe
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:52 PM, RJM  wrote:
>
>>  I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday.
>> The look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it.
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Joe Broach]

All,

I don't see how a wire bead could affect performance beyond the slight
weight difference. It just so happens most supple sidewall, thin tread
tires are folding bead. At least I think so.

Best,
joe


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:52 PM, RJM  wrote:

> I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>>
>
>
>
> Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday. The
> look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it.
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

I still don't get how the bead affects the ride quality, whether for
comfort or speed. Can anyone explain? From Jan's testing it would seem that
the principal variable by an order of magnitude is casing construction.

But I'd like to know if it does, 'cuz if it does, I need to swap out the
wire bead Kojaks on the '03 for folding ones.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:52 PM, RJM  wrote:

> I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>>
>
>
>
> Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday. The
> look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it.
>
> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[RJM]

>
> I can't stand wire beads...much prefer a folding bead.
>



Just installed the Stampede Pass onto my Roadeo, first ride on Sunday. The 
look much better than the 25mm Continental tires I had on it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

Furious Freds, at a true 360 grams? Labeled 50 but measure 55 on my SnoCat
SuperLites.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 2:35 PM, jimmy johnsen  wrote:

> Patrick. Have any land speed/track records been broken on wire beads
> recently? If fat tires can be made lightweight I'll buy them. The Surly
> Knard 29x3 come in wire bead and folding. The wire version might last
> longer and have better protection but I'd much rather ride the lighter
> folding tire.They rotate quicker and have a sprinty/lively quality. What
> 44mm rims are you using? The Duallys? Have you tried the Surly Knard
> 700x41? I'm riding a heavy bike w. the Motos but if I can save some weight
> I will.
>
>
>   On Friday, March 21, 2014 3:37 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>  Thanks. 680 grams is 200 grams less than the original 700cX2.35 Big
> Apples, wire bead, and about 100 grams less than the "Litespeed" folding
> version.
>
> I may just try those some day. Right now I have the superest lighter-est
> Furious Freds on the Fargo, but they measure a paltry 55 mm on the 44 mm
> rims.
>
> With tubeless and Stan's the Super Moto should be fine.
>
> Does wire bead really slow a tire down? How would it affect the factors
> that determine rolling resistance -- ie, if tread depth and material, and
> sidewall suppleness are the same for all?
>
> #2: if anyone wants to buy a pair of VG 622X2.35 Weirwolfs, I will sell
> the pair for $50 + shipping.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, jimmy johnsen  wrote:
>
> Patrick. The Schwalbe website list them as 680 grams. Aren't the Apples
> wire bead? I don't ride wire bead tires. I think they are slow. I use to
> ride sew ups or tubulars on the track and road. A folding tire comes closer
> to the feel and speed of a sew up and will always beat a wire bead. Jan has
> more of a vintage roadie mentality. Grant's vibe is more recreational
> rider. I can't believe Grant doesn't carry the Super Motos. I like speed
> and comfort, not drag. You might as well have fast tires. There are plenty
> of other things on a bike to slow you down. You don't need something
> holding you back. So have the fastest tires. The only tire Grant designed
> that I liked was the Fatty Rump and that didn't come close to the Hetres.
> Both on the trail and road the Hetres rolled much better then Rump. Did I
> say I really like the Super Motos? I inflate them super high for the road
> and never feel bumps because of the volume and width of my rims. Maybe it's
> the combo of all the components on my present ride that it handles so well.
> Finding the right mix can be a challenge. There is nothing wrong with going
> fast. I still enjoy what's going on around me, but just at a faster pace. I
> don't know how the Motos will handle on anything other then my rides which
> is a mix of dirt/ hard pack and road. Just my opinion. Hobie
>
>
>   On Friday, March 21, 2014 2:57 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>  Hobie: do you know how much this tire weighs? I couldn't find that
> figure.
>
> If it is sufficiently lighter than the Big Apple, it will be a very nice
> tire for the sandy soils around here.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM, hobie  wrote:
>
> I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for
> gravel. I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan
> especially in the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of
> the bikes he reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more
> choices is a good thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it
> seems. So how they design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I
> remember buying a wool long sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because
> the turtleneck was to low. My reason for returning was. "This won't work on
> the east coast". That was about 6 years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC
> this year he would know what I'm talking about. Had to be the coldest
> winter ever. I think Grant even said he doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite
> tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned is the Schwalbe Super Moto at
> 29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. I'm using the Motos on a Jeff
> Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the
> fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like
> an auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack
> of drag from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike
> move very very fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some
> hills the fastest ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have
> enough speed going into a climb and can sustain it, nothing has come
> close.  I've used this same bike w. Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the
> woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff in the rear for east coast mtn.
> biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter bike for mtn biking. I
> presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are Blunt front,
> Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[jimmy johnsen]

Patrick. Have any land speed/track records been broken on wire beads recently? 
If fat tires can be made lightweight I'll buy them. The Surly Knard 29x3 come 
in wire bead and folding. The wire version might last longer and have better 
protection but I'd much rather ride the lighter folding tire.They rotate 
quicker and have a sprinty/lively quality. What 44mm rims are you using? The 
Duallys? Have you tried the Surly Knard 700x41? I'm riding a heavy bike w. the 
Motos but if I can save some weight I will. 



On Friday, March 21, 2014 3:37 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
  
Thanks. 680 grams is 200 grams less than the original 700cX2.35 Big Apples, 
wire bead, and about 100 grams less than the "Litespeed" folding version. 

I may just try those some day. Right now I have the superest lighter-est 
Furious Freds on the Fargo, but they measure a paltry 55 mm on the 44 mm rims.  

With tubeless and Stan's the Super Moto should be fine.

Does wire bead really slow a tire down? How would it affect the factors that 
determine rolling resistance -- ie, if tread depth and material, and sidewall 
suppleness are the same for all? 

#2: if anyone wants to buy a pair of VG 622X2.35 Weirwolfs, I will sell the 
pair for $50 + shipping.



On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, jimmy johnsen  wrote:

Patrick. The Schwalbe website list them as 680 grams. Aren't the Apples wire 
bead? I don't ride wire bead tires. I think they are slow. I use to ride sew 
ups or tubulars on the track and road. A folding tire comes closer to the feel 
and speed of a sew up and will always beat a wire bead. Jan has more of a 
vintage roadie mentality. Grant's vibe is more recreational rider. I can't 
believe Grant doesn't carry the Super Motos. I like speed and comfort, not 
drag. You might as well have fast tires. There are plenty of other things on a 
bike to slow you down. You don't need something holding you back. So have the 
fastest tires. The only tire Grant designed that I liked was the Fatty Rump and 
that didn't come close to the Hetres. Both on the trail and road the Hetres 
rolled much better then Rump. Did I say I really like the Super Motos? I 
inflate them super high for the road and never feel bumps because of the volume 
and width of my rims. Maybe it's
 the combo of all the components on my present ride that it handles so well. 
Finding the right mix can be a challenge. There is nothing wrong with going 
fast. I still enjoy what's going on around me, but just at a faster pace. I 
don't know how the Motos will handle on anything other then my rides which is a 
mix of dirt/ hard pack and road. Just my opinion. Hobie 
>
>
>
>On Friday, March 21, 2014 2:57 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>  
>Hobie: do you know how much this tire weighs? I couldn't find that figure.
>
>
>If it is sufficiently lighter than the Big Apple, it will be a very nice tire 
>for the sandy soils around here. 
>
>
>
>On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM, hobie  wrote:
>
>I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for gravel. 
>I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan especially in 
>the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of the bikes he 
>reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more choices is a good 
>thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it seems. So how they 
>design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I remember buying a wool long 
>sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because the turtleneck was to low. My 
>reason for returning was. "This won't work on the east coast". That was about 
>6 years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC this year he would know what I'm 
>talking about. Had to be the coldest winter ever. I think Grant even said he 
>doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned 
>is the Schwalbe Super Moto at 29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. 
>I'm using the Motos on a Jeff
 Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the 
fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like an 
auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack of drag 
from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike move very very 
fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some hills the fastest 
ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have enough speed going into a 
climb and can sustain it, nothing has come close.  I've used this same bike w. 
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff 
in the rear for east coast mtn. biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter 
bike for mtn biking. I presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are 
Blunt front, Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front and rear tires. 
Great, fast stable ride for tech. MTN biking. I'm using a 165mm crank because 
of the low BB on the
 ECR. BIG TIRES ARE SUPER MOTO!
>>
>>On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrot

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. 680 grams is 200 grams less than the original 700cX2.35 Big Apples,
wire bead, and about 100 grams less than the "Litespeed" folding version.

I may just try those some day. Right now I have the superest lighter-est
Furious Freds on the Fargo, but they measure a paltry 55 mm on the 44 mm
rims.

With tubeless and Stan's the Super Moto should be fine.

Does wire bead really slow a tire down? How would it affect the factors
that determine rolling resistance -- ie, if tread depth and material, and
sidewall suppleness are the same for all?

#2: if anyone wants to buy a pair of VG 622X2.35 Weirwolfs, I will sell the
pair for $50 + shipping.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:28 PM, jimmy johnsen  wrote:

> Patrick. The Schwalbe website list them as 680 grams. Aren't the Apples
> wire bead? I don't ride wire bead tires. I think they are slow. I use to
> ride sew ups or tubulars on the track and road. A folding tire comes closer
> to the feel and speed of a sew up and will always beat a wire bead. Jan has
> more of a vintage roadie mentality. Grant's vibe is more recreational
> rider. I can't believe Grant doesn't carry the Super Motos. I like speed
> and comfort, not drag. You might as well have fast tires. There are plenty
> of other things on a bike to slow you down. You don't need something
> holding you back. So have the fastest tires. The only tire Grant designed
> that I liked was the Fatty Rump and that didn't come close to the Hetres.
> Both on the trail and road the Hetres rolled much better then Rump. Did I
> say I really like the Super Motos? I inflate them super high for the road
> and never feel bumps because of the volume and width of my rims. Maybe it's
> the combo of all the components on my present ride that it handles so well.
> Finding the right mix can be a challenge. There is nothing wrong with going
> fast. I still enjoy what's going on around me, but just at a faster pace. I
> don't know how the Motos will handle on anything other then my rides which
> is a mix of dirt/ hard pack and road. Just my opinion. Hobie
>
>
>   On Friday, March 21, 2014 2:57 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>  Hobie: do you know how much this tire weighs? I couldn't find that
> figure.
>
> If it is sufficiently lighter than the Big Apple, it will be a very nice
> tire for the sandy soils around here.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM, hobie  wrote:
>
> I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for
> gravel. I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan
> especially in the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of
> the bikes he reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more
> choices is a good thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it
> seems. So how they design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I
> remember buying a wool long sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because
> the turtleneck was to low. My reason for returning was. "This won't work on
> the east coast". That was about 6 years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC
> this year he would know what I'm talking about. Had to be the coldest
> winter ever. I think Grant even said he doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite
> tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned is the Schwalbe Super Moto at
> 29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. I'm using the Motos on a Jeff
> Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the
> fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like
> an auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack
> of drag from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike
> move very very fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some
> hills the fastest ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have
> enough speed going into a climb and can sustain it, nothing has come
> close.  I've used this same bike w. Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the
> woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff in the rear for east coast mtn.
> biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter bike for mtn biking. I
> presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are Blunt front,
> Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front and rear tires. Great,
> fast stable ride for tech. MTN biking. I'm using a 165mm crank because of
> the low BB on the ECR. BIG TIRES ARE SUPER MOTO!
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>
> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs
> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website
> description of a Conti tire:
>
> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for
> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo
> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the
> bumps..."
>
> Steve
>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To uns

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[jimmy johnsen]

Patrick. The Schwalbe website list them as 680 grams. Aren't the Apples wire 
bead? I don't ride wire bead tires. I think they are slow. I use to ride sew 
ups or tubulars on the track and road. A folding tire comes closer to the feel 
and speed of a sew up and will always beat a wire bead. Jan has more of a 
vintage roadie mentality. Grant's vibe is more recreational rider. I can't 
believe Grant doesn't carry the Super Motos. I like speed and comfort, not 
drag. You might as well have fast tires. There are plenty of other things on a 
bike to slow you down. You don't need something holding you back. So have the 
fastest tires. The only tire Grant designed that I liked was the Fatty Rump and 
that didn't come close to the Hetres. Both on the trail and road the Hetres 
rolled much better then Rump. Did I say I really like the Super Motos? I 
inflate them super high for the road and never feel bumps because of the volume 
and width of my rims. Maybe it's
 the combo of all the components on my present ride that it handles so well. 
Finding the right mix can be a challenge. There is nothing wrong with going 
fast. I still enjoy what's going on around me, but just at a faster pace. I 
don't know how the Motos will handle on anything other then my rides which is a 
mix of dirt/ hard pack and road. Just my opinion. Hobie



On Friday, March 21, 2014 2:57 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
  
Hobie: do you know how much this tire weighs? I couldn't find that figure.

If it is sufficiently lighter than the Big Apple, it will be a very nice tire 
for the sandy soils around here. 



On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM, hobie  wrote:

I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for gravel. 
I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan especially in 
the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of the bikes he 
reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more choices is a good 
thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it seems. So how they 
design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I remember buying a wool long 
sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because the turtleneck was to low. My 
reason for returning was. "This won't work on the east coast". That was about 6 
years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC this year he would know what I'm 
talking about. Had to be the coldest winter ever. I think Grant even said he 
doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned 
is the Schwalbe Super Moto at 29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. I'm 
using the Motos on a Jeff
 Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the 
fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like an 
auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack of drag 
from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike move very very 
fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some hills the fastest 
ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have enough speed going into a 
climb and can sustain it, nothing has come close.  I've used this same bike w. 
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff 
in the rear for east coast mtn. biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter 
bike for mtn biking. I presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are 
Blunt front, Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front and rear tires. 
Great, fast stable ride for tech. MTN biking. I'm using a 165mm crank because 
of the low BB on the
 ECR. BIG TIRES ARE SUPER MOTO!
>
>On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs the 
>supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
>description of a Conti tire:
>>
>>"...It has a good, 
stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for more support should you 
ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo tread. Mounts 
easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the bumps..."
>>
>>Steve
>> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

Hobie: do you know how much this tire weighs? I couldn't find that figure.

If it is sufficiently lighter than the Big Apple, it will be a very nice
tire for the sandy soils around here.


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM, hobie  wrote:

> I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for
> gravel. I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan
> especially in the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of
> the bikes he reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more
> choices is a good thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it
> seems. So how they design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I
> remember buying a wool long sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because
> the turtleneck was to low. My reason for returning was. "This won't work on
> the east coast". That was about 6 years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC
> this year he would know what I'm talking about. Had to be the coldest
> winter ever. I think Grant even said he doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite
> tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned is the Schwalbe Super Moto at
> 29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. I'm using the Motos on a Jeff
> Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the
> fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like
> an auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack
> of drag from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike
> move very very fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some
> hills the fastest ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have
> enough speed going into a climb and can sustain it, nothing has come
> close.  I've used this same bike w. Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the
> woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff in the rear for east coast mtn.
> biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter bike for mtn biking. I
> presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are Blunt front,
> Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front and rear tires. Great,
> fast stable ride for tech. MTN biking. I'm using a 165mm crank because of
> the low BB on the ECR. BIG TIRES ARE SUPER MOTO!
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>>
>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs
>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website
>> description of a Conti tire:
>>
>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for
>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo
>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the
>> bumps..."
>>
>> Steve
>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[hobie]

I think the Hetres 650b tires are fantastic! Very fast, plenty fat for 
gravel. I like what Jan is doing. I'd like to see fatter tires from Jan 
especially in the 29/700 size. Say 29x2.0. I doubt he will because most of 
the bikes he reviews or rides can only handle up to 40mm? Having more 
choices is a good thing. Both Jan and Grant do ride different terrain it 
seems. So how they design a tire has a lot to do with their hood. I 
remember buying a wool long sleeve jersey from Riv and returning it because 
the turtleneck was to low. My reason for returning was. "This won't work on 
the east coast". That was about 6 years ago. If Grant could have ridden NYC 
this year he would know what I'm talking about. Had to be the coldest 
winter ever. I think Grant even said he doesn't know "COLD".   My favorite 
tire of all and it's rarely ever mentioned is the Schwalbe Super Moto at 
29x2.35. Very big tires but super super fast. I'm using the Motos on a Jeff 
Jones Diamond frame w. a Rohloff rear/ Paul 135mm front hub. This is the 
fastest most stable ride ever. Once up to speed the bike motors along like 
an auto. It's kinda like the A-10 bomber. The straight chain line and lack 
of drag from a cassette, derailler, precise shifting etc makes this bike 
move very very fast. The bike is not lightweight but I've gotten up some 
hills the fastest ever in my life time. Some hills, not all. If I have 
enough speed going into a climb and can sustain it, nothing has come 
close.  I've used this same bike w. Maxxis Ardent 2.4 front and rear in the 
woods. The extra weight of the Rohloff in the rear for east coast mtn. 
biking is very noticeable. I prefer a lighter bike for mtn biking. I 
presently have a Surly ECR for mtn. biking. The rims are Blunt front, 
Pacenti DL 31 rear/ Hadley SS 5 cogs. Knard front and rear tires. Great, 
fast stable ride for tech. MTN biking. I'm using a 165mm crank because of 
the low BB on the ECR. BIG TIRES ARE SUPER MOTO!

On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>
> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs 
> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
> description of a Conti tire:
>
> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
> bumps..."
>
> Steve
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[stonehog]

The MSOs work well, and look great (i might add) on the 
Hunqapillar: https://flic.kr/p/kpCU2r
I'm going to fender up the Hilsen with some Zeppelins to cover the Barlow 
Pass's tonight: https://flic.kr/p/kTv33e

I guess we should chat more, Chen!  I'll let you know how they work.  

My take on tires is that they make a HUGE difference in my enjoyment. 
 That's for me - not everyone obsesses about tires like some of us.  I like 
a supple, light tire, and don't mind the flats I occasionally get.  That 
said, I believe all flats happen on rear wheels while it's raining, and 
usually within the first 100 miles on the tires.  I once removed my newish 
Gran Bois Cypres tires after having 2 flats in one ride, and left them on 
the bench for a few months.  I then put 'em back on and rode at least 2k 
miles with no flats.  I've also gotten flats on beefy tires, and that's the 
ultimate letdown...

Brian Hanson
Seattle, WA
(currently experimenting with low-trail 650B)

On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 12:37:31 PM UTC-7, Christopher Chen wrote:
>
> I'm of two minds.
>
> I have the Barlow Pass Compass tires on the way and I'm seriously 
> considering trying out some of those 700x40C Clement MSOs I saw on Will's 
> Hillborne: I heard they come out to 38 on a 24mm rim and that's damn near 
> perfect for lil' ol' me.
>
> They look so Manly.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Jim Bronson 
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about getting an Xpress as a spare tire, after having 5 
>> flats on 2 different Pari-Motos.  I replaced the back tire with a spare 
>> after the 3rd flat, and proceeded to have two more.  
>>
>> If a rider is going to have to install the spare tire, I think there's 
>> some merit in that spare being a little tougher.
>>
>> I'm also considering trying out the Compass Loup Loup Pass as a rear 
>> tire, and keeping the Pari-Motos on the front, at least until my supply of 
>> Pari-Motos runs out.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Toshi Takeuchi 
>> 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats.  One was
>>> a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
>>> running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
>>> rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
>>> care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
>>> work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
>>> armored tank tires, just in case :).
>>>
>>> For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
>>> speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
>>> just luck.
>>>
>>> The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
>>> The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
>>> the Lierre or the new Compass offering.
>>>
>>> If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
>>> the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
>>> are almost as good as the Hetre :).
>>>
>>> Toshi
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down! 
>>
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>
>
>
> -- 
> "I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I think the Xpress would make an excellent spare tire and is a fine
tire. Using the Pari-Moto up front and a more durable rear tire makes
a ton of sense.  I rode over 600 miles on my Pari-Motos and the front
still had the little rubber-new tire things attached in the center,
whereas the rear had worn away the tread pattern in the very center.

Toshi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Dan McNamara]

Although - Soma has something in the works that might just fill this need.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/02/22/soma-fab-hits-the-gravel-w-new-cazadero-low-profile-knobby-tires/




On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Dan McNamara  wrote:

> Currently not really. At least that I am aware of. There has been a fair
> amount of chatter about this in the 650B Google Group over the last year
> and i know a number of people had contacted Clement about a 650B version
> and gotten responses requesting more info on their bike and how it was set
> up. But no info about a possible model based on the MSO.
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/650b/oxAfZnB62YI
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Coconutbill wrote:
>
>> is there a 650b equivalent for such a tire?
>>>
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Dan McNamara]

Currently not really. At least that I am aware of. There has been a fair
amount of chatter about this in the 650B Google Group over the last year
and i know a number of people had contacted Clement about a 650B version
and gotten responses requesting more info on their bike and how it was set
up. But no info about a possible model based on the MSO.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/650b/oxAfZnB62YI




On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Coconutbill  wrote:

> is there a 650b equivalent for such a tire?
>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Coconutbill]

>
> is there a 650b equivalent for such a tire?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Dan McNamara]

I like the MSO tires. Have them on the XO-4 and the Black Mountain Monster
Cross. You can get the 60tpi for less than $35. The 120tpi (which are nice)
can be found to $50. No flats yet. Manly? Yes!




On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Chris Chen  wrote:

> I'm of two minds.
>
> I have the Barlow Pass Compass tires on the way and I'm seriously
> considering trying out some of those 700x40C Clement MSOs I saw on Will's
> Hillborne: I heard they come out to 38 on a 24mm rim and that's damn near
> perfect for lil' ol' me.
>
> They look so Manly.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about getting an Xpress as a spare tire, after having 5
>> flats on 2 different Pari-Motos.  I replaced the back tire with a spare
>> after the 3rd flat, and proceeded to have two more.
>>
>> If a rider is going to have to install the spare tire, I think there's
>> some merit in that spare being a little tougher.
>>
>> I'm also considering trying out the Compass Loup Loup Pass as a rear
>> tire, and keeping the Pari-Motos on the front, at least until my supply of
>> Pari-Motos runs out.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Toshi Takeuchi wrote:
>>
>>> I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats.  One was
>>> a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
>>> running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
>>> rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
>>> care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
>>> work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
>>> armored tank tires, just in case :).
>>>
>>> For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
>>> speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
>>> just luck.
>>>
>>> The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
>>> The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
>>> the Lierre or the new Compass offering.
>>>
>>> If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
>>> the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
>>> are almost as good as the Hetre :).
>>>
>>> Toshi
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Chris Chen]

I'm of two minds.

I have the Barlow Pass Compass tires on the way and I'm seriously
considering trying out some of those 700x40C Clement MSOs I saw on Will's
Hillborne: I heard they come out to 38 on a 24mm rim and that's damn near
perfect for lil' ol' me.

They look so Manly.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:22 PM, Jim Bronson  wrote:

> I'm thinking about getting an Xpress as a spare tire, after having 5 flats
> on 2 different Pari-Motos.  I replaced the back tire with a spare after the
> 3rd flat, and proceeded to have two more.
>
> If a rider is going to have to install the spare tire, I think there's
> some merit in that spare being a little tougher.
>
> I'm also considering trying out the Compass Loup Loup Pass as a rear tire,
> and keeping the Pari-Motos on the front, at least until my supply of
> Pari-Motos runs out.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Toshi Takeuchi  wrote:
>
>> I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats.  One was
>> a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
>> running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
>> rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
>> care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
>> work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
>> armored tank tires, just in case :).
>>
>> For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
>> speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
>> just luck.
>>
>> The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
>> The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
>> the Lierre or the new Compass offering.
>>
>> If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
>> the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
>> are almost as good as the Hetre :).
>>
>> Toshi
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jim Bronson]

I'm thinking about getting an Xpress as a spare tire, after having 5 flats
on 2 different Pari-Motos.  I replaced the back tire with a spare after the
3rd flat, and proceeded to have two more.

If a rider is going to have to install the spare tire, I think there's some
merit in that spare being a little tougher.

I'm also considering trying out the Compass Loup Loup Pass as a rear tire,
and keeping the Pari-Motos on the front, at least until my supply of
Pari-Motos runs out.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Toshi Takeuchi  wrote:

> I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats.  One was
> a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
> running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
> rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
> care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
> work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
> armored tank tires, just in case :).
>
> For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
> speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
> just luck.
>
> The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
> The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
> the Lierre or the new Compass offering.
>
> If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
> the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
> are almost as good as the Hetre :).
>
> Toshi
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I use Soma Xpress 650b on my commuter and have had two flats.  One was
a thorn after 0.5 miles riding, and the other was a pinch flat after
running over a large, unseen object that caused me to crash down on my
rear wheel. For peace of mind it's good for the commuter and I don't
care about saving time on my 30 minute (each way) commute and extra
work means more exercise, which I need! Maybe I should be running some
armored tank tires, just in case :).

For brevets, the PariMoto made a huge difference in terms of perceived
speed and comfort, and I've never flatted those, but it's probably
just luck.

The Hutchinsons are good, but I think there are nice wider options.
The Soma B-line is probably an economical step up in speed as well as
the Lierre or the new Compass offering.

If I were going to ride 38s on brevets, then I would probably go with
the (not-extra light) Lierre or Compass offering. Bubba promises they
are almost as good as the Hetre :).

Toshi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Evan Baird]

Just fill your Schwalbes with helium. I heard that works really well.

On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 9:45:19 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
>
> We need one special tire, forged deep in the heart of a volcano. A tire 
> that is supple, fast, flatproof, quiet, cheapONE TIRE TO RULE THEM ALL!
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Coconutbill 
> > wrote:
>
>> well spoken, Larry.
>> that's what I was trying at.
>>
>> -evan
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Lynne Fitz]

maybe that is why my times on brevets have been slower :-)  Currently riding on 
Soma Xpress 650b.  Sturdy - only two flats in 4000 miles (glass and a wire).  
But the past year has been unexplainably dismal.

Was riding the Hutchinsons before.  Maybe I'll go back.  Or try the new Compass 
650b (Loup Loup?  Babyshoe Pass?  need the narrower one).

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Peter Morgano]

We need one special tire, forged deep in the heart of a volcano. A tire
that is supple, fast, flatproof, quiet, cheapONE TIRE TO RULE THEM ALL!


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Coconutbill  wrote:

> well spoken, Larry.
> that's what I was trying at.
>
> -evan
>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Coconutbill]

well spoken, Larry.
that's what I was trying at.

-evan

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steve Palincsar]

If you can specify the criteriia you can test and find the tires that best meet 
them.

Ron Mc  wrote:

>there is no such thing as best tire, there is only favorite 
>
>On Monday, March 17, 2014 7:50:01 PM UTC-5, LF wrote:
>>
>> "Best Tire" depends on what type of riding you do, how much total
>weight 
>> you are pedaling, how much you mind flats, and personal preference. A
>160# 
>> randonnair on a light weight bike might prefer a different tire than
>a 200# 
>> commuter/ occasional off roader on a "country" bike. It's also a
>challenge 
>> to separate out "best" from a functional point of view, and the
>identity 
>> issues intractable from our buying choices.
>> Best,
>> Larry
>>
>> On Friday, March 14, 2014 5:59:31 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires. 
>(vs 
>>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW
>website 
>>> description of a Conti tire:
>>>
>>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and
>for 
>>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead.
>Combo 
>>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging
>out the 
>>> bumps..."
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>
>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Ron Mc]

there is no such thing as best tire, there is only favorite 

On Monday, March 17, 2014 7:50:01 PM UTC-5, LF wrote:
>
> "Best Tire" depends on what type of riding you do, how much total weight 
> you are pedaling, how much you mind flats, and personal preference. A 160# 
> randonnair on a light weight bike might prefer a different tire than a 200# 
> commuter/ occasional off roader on a "country" bike. It's also a challenge 
> to separate out "best" from a functional point of view, and the identity 
> issues intractable from our buying choices.
> Best,
> Larry
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 5:59:31 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:
>>
>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs 
>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
>> description of a Conti tire:
>>
>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
>> bumps..."
>>
>> Steve
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[LF]

"Best Tire" depends on what type of riding you do, how much total weight 
you are pedaling, how much you mind flats, and personal preference. A 160# 
randonnair on a light weight bike might prefer a different tire than a 200# 
commuter/ occasional off roader on a "country" bike. It's also a challenge 
to separate out "best" from a functional point of view, and the identity 
issues intractable from our buying choices.
Best,
Larry

On Friday, March 14, 2014 5:59:31 AM UTC-7, stevef wrote:
>
> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs 
> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
> description of a Conti tire:
>
> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
> bumps..."
>
> Steve
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Ron Mc]

could just be that your tire more readily picks up small shards in the 
rain, held by the surface tension of water.  They make more trips around 
and get pressed into the rubber - good argument for tire wipers.  

On Monday, March 17, 2014 2:43:43 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> "Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we 
> encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that 
> things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats 
> seems even more skewed than normal. "
>
> I always blame that on the fact that bits of glass are nearly invisible 
> when the road is wet.  That and Murphy's Law, of course.  Some people have 
> speculated that wet and sharp things slice into your tire more easily than 
> those same sharp things do when dry.  
>
> On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:27:06 PM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I agree with you Philip.  I weigh 270 and I get lots of flats on wider 
>> tires, including 5 flats on this last weekend's Houston Randonneurs 600K.
>>
>> Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we 
>> encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that 
>> things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats 
>> seems even more skewed than normal.  
>>
>> I also replaced the tire after flat #3, and I still got 2 more flats.  If 
>> I would have had a rock hard tire like a Continental Gatorskin that would 
>> have been more flat resistant, I would have put it on after the 5th flat.  
>> I had no more spare tubes after that and I am not particularly good at 
>> patching tubes.
>>
>> Let's just say it was quite an interesting ride.  At the 315 mile mark, I 
>> got to the control with 3 minutes to spare.  Thankfully, I was able to make 
>> up some of the time between there and the end thanks to a very strong 
>> tailwind.
>>
>> Some of the other things that the ride featured was pulling off the road 
>> multiple times for a race to let the various pelotons go by, riding on the 
>> shoulder of a freeway, cows that chose to run alongside the fence as we 
>> rode, wading over flooded water crossings (not recommended!), the passage 
>> of a cold front, nearly perpendicular wind and rain, and the aforementioned 
>> arrival with 3 minutes to spare a control.  I'm super sore.
>>
>> Well anyway better get back to my naperr I mean, work.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 1:10 PM, Philip Williamson > > wrote:
>>
>>> I weigh 240 lbs as well (more, recently), and have plenty of flats on 
>>> fatter tires, too. I do feel fast on the Vee Rubber "Flying V" and the Soma 
>>> C-Lines. Flying Vs are tubeless, the C-Lines have tire savers (wire 
>>> thornflickers). I got a flat in a C-line as soon as I changed gears (fixed) 
>>> and didn't re-adjust the tire saver to graze the tire. 
>>>
>>> One set of tires starts leaking as soon as the pressure hits 60lbs. I 
>>> think there's a wire in the tread that isn't exposed to the tube until the 
>>> pressure expands everything. 
>>>
>>> So I think some of the "fewer flats" benefits of wider tires are 
>>> reserved for lighter riders.
>>>
>>> Philip
>>> www.biketinker.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:01:18 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:


 I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most 
> nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3 
> Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my 
> Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, 
> although 
> I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first 
> tires 
> wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had 
> flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a 
> go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I 
> had 
> flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was 
> putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier 
> ride. 
> It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. 
> I 
> switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still 
> much 
> more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns 
> since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or 
> smoother 
> than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been 
> higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward 
> Grant's 
> tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the 
> light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I 
> was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit 
> higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride 
> was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Bill Lindsay]

"Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we 
encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that 
things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats 
seems even more skewed than normal. "

I always blame that on the fact that bits of glass are nearly invisible 
when the road is wet.  That and Murphy's Law, of course.  Some people have 
speculated that wet and sharp things slice into your tire more easily than 
those same sharp things do when dry.  

On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:27:06 PM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> I agree with you Philip.  I weigh 270 and I get lots of flats on wider 
> tires, including 5 flats on this last weekend's Houston Randonneurs 600K.
>
> Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we 
> encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that 
> things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats 
> seems even more skewed than normal.  
>
> I also replaced the tire after flat #3, and I still got 2 more flats.  If 
> I would have had a rock hard tire like a Continental Gatorskin that would 
> have been more flat resistant, I would have put it on after the 5th flat.  
> I had no more spare tubes after that and I am not particularly good at 
> patching tubes.
>
> Let's just say it was quite an interesting ride.  At the 315 mile mark, I 
> got to the control with 3 minutes to spare.  Thankfully, I was able to make 
> up some of the time between there and the end thanks to a very strong 
> tailwind.
>
> Some of the other things that the ride featured was pulling off the road 
> multiple times for a race to let the various pelotons go by, riding on the 
> shoulder of a freeway, cows that chose to run alongside the fence as we 
> rode, wading over flooded water crossings (not recommended!), the passage 
> of a cold front, nearly perpendicular wind and rain, and the aforementioned 
> arrival with 3 minutes to spare a control.  I'm super sore.
>
> Well anyway better get back to my naperr I mean, work.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 1:10 PM, Philip Williamson 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>> I weigh 240 lbs as well (more, recently), and have plenty of flats on 
>> fatter tires, too. I do feel fast on the Vee Rubber "Flying V" and the Soma 
>> C-Lines. Flying Vs are tubeless, the C-Lines have tire savers (wire 
>> thornflickers). I got a flat in a C-line as soon as I changed gears (fixed) 
>> and didn't re-adjust the tire saver to graze the tire. 
>>
>> One set of tires starts leaking as soon as the pressure hits 60lbs. I 
>> think there's a wire in the tread that isn't exposed to the tube until the 
>> pressure expands everything. 
>>
>> So I think some of the "fewer flats" benefits of wider tires are reserved 
>> for lighter riders.
>>
>> Philip
>> www.biketinker.com
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:01:18 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most 
 nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3 
 Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my 
 Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, although 
 I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first tires 
 wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had 
 flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a 
 go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I 
 had 
 flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was 
 putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier ride. 
 It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. I 
 switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still much 
 more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns 
 since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or 
 smoother 
 than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been 
 higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward 
 Grant's 
 tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the 
 light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I 
 was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit 
 higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride 
 was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on a 
 lot 
 of weight, nearly 40 lbs, to around 240, so I can't imagine feeling fast 
 on 
 any tire. But I had flat issues and after not all that many miles the tan 
 sidewalls began to show threads. I came to the conclusion that Jan was not 
 wrong, but that I was too heavy for such a supple tire. Now this year I've 
 lost weight and to encourage me have set a goal to ride br

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jim Bronson]

I agree with you Philip.  I weigh 270 and I get lots of flats on wider
tires, including 5 flats on this last weekend's Houston Randonneurs 600K.

Interestingly, I got all my flats during the times of rain that we
encountered.  I got no flats when the road was dry.  I understand that
things get washed loose when it rains, but 5 rainy flats vs 0 dry flats
seems even more skewed than normal.

I also replaced the tire after flat #3, and I still got 2 more flats.  If I
would have had a rock hard tire like a Continental Gatorskin that would
have been more flat resistant, I would have put it on after the 5th flat.
I had no more spare tubes after that and I am not particularly good at
patching tubes.

Let's just say it was quite an interesting ride.  At the 315 mile mark, I
got to the control with 3 minutes to spare.  Thankfully, I was able to make
up some of the time between there and the end thanks to a very strong
tailwind.

Some of the other things that the ride featured was pulling off the road
multiple times for a race to let the various pelotons go by, riding on the
shoulder of a freeway, cows that chose to run alongside the fence as we
rode, wading over flooded water crossings (not recommended!), the passage
of a cold front, nearly perpendicular wind and rain, and the aforementioned
arrival with 3 minutes to spare a control.  I'm super sore.

Well anyway better get back to my naperr I mean, work.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 1:10 PM, Philip Williamson <
philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I weigh 240 lbs as well (more, recently), and have plenty of flats on
> fatter tires, too. I do feel fast on the Vee Rubber "Flying V" and the Soma
> C-Lines. Flying Vs are tubeless, the C-Lines have tire savers (wire
> thornflickers). I got a flat in a C-line as soon as I changed gears (fixed)
> and didn't re-adjust the tire saver to graze the tire.
>
> One set of tires starts leaking as soon as the pressure hits 60lbs. I
> think there's a wire in the tread that isn't exposed to the tube until the
> pressure expands everything.
>
> So I think some of the "fewer flats" benefits of wider tires are reserved
> for lighter riders.
>
> Philip
> www.biketinker.com
>
>
> On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:01:18 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>>
>>
>> I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most
>>> nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3
>>> Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my
>>> Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, although
>>> I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first tires
>>> wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had
>>> flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a
>>> go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I had
>>> flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was
>>> putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier ride.
>>> It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. I
>>> switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still much
>>> more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns
>>> since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or smoother
>>> than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been
>>> higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward Grant's
>>> tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the
>>> light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I
>>> was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit
>>> higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride
>>> was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on a lot
>>> of weight, nearly 40 lbs, to around 240, so I can't imagine feeling fast on
>>> any tire. But I had flat issues and after not all that many miles the tan
>>> sidewalls began to show threads. I came to the conclusion that Jan was not
>>> wrong, but that I was too heavy for such a supple tire. Now this year I've
>>> lost weight and to encourage me have set a goal to ride brevets again. I
>>> continue to read Jan's blog and want to try his new line of Compass tires.
>>> I've ordered the Stampede Pass 32s to replace my current Jack Browns. I
>>> didn't get the extra light version this time. If Jan is right, and I tend
>>> to think he is, then the decrease in rolling resistence over the course of
>>> a 200, 300 or 400km brevet should result in less riding time, or less
>>> energy expended, or both. If it results in more flats, though, I have to
>>> wonder if there is really a net gain. The tires should be here next week
>>> and I'm looking forward to using them on training rides leading up to the
>>> May 7th, 200km brevet.
>>>
>>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou

[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Philip Williamson]

I weigh 240 lbs as well (more, recently), and have plenty of flats on 
fatter tires, too. I do feel fast on the Vee Rubber "Flying V" and the Soma 
C-Lines. Flying Vs are tubeless, the C-Lines have tire savers (wire 
thornflickers). I got a flat in a C-line as soon as I changed gears (fixed) 
and didn't re-adjust the tire saver to graze the tire. 

One set of tires starts leaking as soon as the pressure hits 60lbs. I think 
there's a wire in the tread that isn't exposed to the tube until the 
pressure expands everything. 

So I think some of the "fewer flats" benefits of wider tires are reserved 
for lighter riders.

Philip
www.biketinker.com


On Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:01:18 AM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>
>
> I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most 
>> nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3 
>> Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my 
>> Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, although 
>> I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first tires 
>> wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had 
>> flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a 
>> go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I had 
>> flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was 
>> putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier ride. 
>> It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. I 
>> switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still much 
>> more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns 
>> since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or smoother 
>> than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been 
>> higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward Grant's 
>> tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the 
>> light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I 
>> was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit 
>> higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride 
>> was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on a lot 
>> of weight, nearly 40 lbs, to around 240, so I can't imagine feeling fast on 
>> any tire. But I had flat issues and after not all that many miles the tan 
>> sidewalls began to show threads. I came to the conclusion that Jan was not 
>> wrong, but that I was too heavy for such a supple tire. Now this year I've 
>> lost weight and to encourage me have set a goal to ride brevets again. I 
>> continue to read Jan's blog and want to try his new line of Compass tires. 
>> I've ordered the Stampede Pass 32s to replace my current Jack Browns. I 
>> didn't get the extra light version this time. If Jan is right, and I tend 
>> to think he is, then the decrease in rolling resistence over the course of 
>> a 200, 300 or 400km brevet should result in less riding time, or less 
>> energy expended, or both. If it results in more flats, though, I have to 
>> wonder if there is really a net gain. The tires should be here next week 
>> and I'm looking forward to using them on training rides leading up to the 
>> May 7th, 200km brevet. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ron; they sound ideal for the Ram (mostly errand riding but I want
my errand bike to feel fast) when the PRs wear out. I know that the PRs
felt faster than the earlier 35 mm Kojaks but of course were deadly for
goatheads without sealant. Perhaps the SBs will split the difference.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> Patrick, the air volume difference between the Parigis and Biancas is
> noteworthy.  They have the same tread pattern, and the Biancas have an
> extra puncture layer, making them only 80g heavier.  The Bianca sidewalls
> feel a bit thinner.  Even though they rate the Biancas as 30mm, they
> measure 33 on my Synergy rims.  I moved the Parigis to my daughter's
> load-hauler, and she can ride them at 65 psi (she likes the speed and the
> ride), but I couldn't ride them below 90.  I can ride the Biancas at 55 psi
> rear and 50 psi front (all 215 pounds of me).  They feel super elastic,
> absorb everything, and still ride fast - if I bump to 70/60 for dry
> pavement, they're every bit as fast as the Parigis.  They completely fill
> my 43mm fenders.
>
> On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:24:10 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Ron -- Any idea how similar the SBs are to the Parigi Roubaix?
>>
>> Speaking of slower rolling, I just learned something. My daughter's new
>> used MTB came with heavy knobbies+thorn proof tube+liner+Slime tire combos
>> pumped rock hard. I let out air until I could flex the tire with a firm
>> squeeze; but discovered that, at modestly lower pressures, the drag from
>> this combination is remarkably high. I guess that is why the bike shop
>> pumps such combos up so high. I daresay that you could remove all the air
>> and still have the tire combo support the rider.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement
>>> on macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.)
>>>  My Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were
>>> intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was
>>> pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> Albuquerque, NM, USA
>>
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Ron Mc]

Patrick, the air volume difference between the Parigis and Biancas is 
noteworthy.  They have the same tread pattern, and the Biancas have an 
extra puncture layer, making them only 80g heavier.  The Bianca sidewalls 
feel a bit thinner.  Even though they rate the Biancas as 30mm, they 
measure 33 on my Synergy rims.  I moved the Parigis to my daughter's 
load-hauler, and she can ride them at 65 psi (she likes the speed and the 
ride), but I couldn't ride them below 90.  I can ride the Biancas at 55 psi 
rear and 50 psi front (all 215 pounds of me).  They feel super elastic, 
absorb everything, and still ride fast - if I bump to 70/60 for dry 
pavement, they're every bit as fast as the Parigis.  They completely fill 
my 43mm fenders.  

On Monday, March 17, 2014 12:24:10 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Ron -- Any idea how similar the SBs are to the Parigi Roubaix?
>
> Speaking of slower rolling, I just learned something. My daughter's new 
> used MTB came with heavy knobbies+thorn proof tube+liner+Slime tire combos 
> pumped rock hard. I let out air until I could flex the tire with a firm 
> squeeze; but discovered that, at modestly lower pressures, the drag from 
> this combination is remarkably high. I guess that is why the bike shop 
> pumps such combos up so high. I daresay that you could remove all the air 
> and still have the tire combo support the rider.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Ron Mc  >wrote:
>
>> Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement 
>> on macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.) 
>>  My Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were 
>> intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was 
>> pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.  
>>
>>
>> -- 
> Albuquerque, NM, USA
>  
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

Ron -- Any idea how similar the SBs are to the Parigi Roubaix?

Speaking of slower rolling, I just learned something. My daughter's new
used MTB came with heavy knobbies+thorn proof tube+liner+Slime tire combos
pumped rock hard. I let out air until I could flex the tire with a firm
squeeze; but discovered that, at modestly lower pressures, the drag from
this combination is remarkably high. I guess that is why the bike shop
pumps such combos up so high. I daresay that you could remove all the air
and still have the tire combo support the rider.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement on
> macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.)  My
> Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were
> intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was
> pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.
>
>
> --
Albuquerque, NM, USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Ron Mc]

Patrick, my buddy and I were rolling Saturday in mixed wet/dry pavement on 
macadam to polymer-reinforced concrete.  (It was a great fender ride.)  My 
Strada Biancas consistently out rolled his Marathon Supremes.  We were 
intentionally going slow over the wet, but literally half the time he was 
pedaling, I was coasting or even braking.  

On Sunday, March 16, 2014 10:07:15 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> +1 for the Kojaks, at least the 559X32s. They aren't proof against thorns, 
> but they do pretty well for the way they roll.
>
> The Big Apples (I used 3 pairs of the 60s) were as close as anything to 
> thorn PROOF without special tubes or sealant, yet they rolled pretty damn' 
> good for all their bulk.
>
> OTOH, no flats at all for almost 700 miles on the Stan's-ified Parigi 
> Roubaix or in some 50 miles (so far, on goathead dirt) the almost-as-light, 
> Stan's-ified and tubeless Schwalbe Furious Freds.
>  
> I have to say that Schwalbe does make some very nice tires.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Matthew J 
> > wrote:
>
>> I switched from Schwalbe Supremes to Grand Bois.  The ride difference is 
>> immediately and profoundly obvious.  
>>>
>>> I fully understand that some people ride in conditions where flat 
>> protection is more important than other considerations.  With Schwalbe that 
>> protection comes with a big loss of riding pleasure.
>>
>> Of the Schwlabes I've ridden, the Kojaks provide the best combination of 
>> smooth ride and flat protection.  Even the Kojak does not come close to the 
>> Grand Bois Extra Leger.
>>  
>> -- 
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
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>  
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Patrick Moore]

+1 for the Kojaks, at least the 559X32s. They aren't proof against thorns,
but they do pretty well for the way they roll.

The Big Apples (I used 3 pairs of the 60s) were as close as anything to
thorn PROOF without special tubes or sealant, yet they rolled pretty damn'
good for all their bulk.

OTOH, no flats at all for almost 700 miles on the Stan's-ified Parigi
Roubaix or in some 50 miles (so far, on goathead dirt) the almost-as-light,
Stan's-ified and tubeless Schwalbe Furious Freds.

I have to say that Schwalbe does make some very nice tires.


On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Matthew J  wrote:

> I switched from Schwalbe Supremes to Grand Bois.  The ride difference is
> immediately and profoundly obvious.
>>
>> I fully understand that some people ride in conditions where flat
> protection is more important than other considerations.  With Schwalbe that
> protection comes with a big loss of riding pleasure.
>
> Of the Schwlabes I've ridden, the Kojaks provide the best combination of
> smooth ride and flat protection.  Even the Kojak does not come close to the
> Grand Bois Extra Leger.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[JL]

I would just like to point something out, for the sake of the archive. While 
this is a positive thread with all participants having a fun discussion about 
tires, there is something odd about having a thread called "X on Y" when X is 
not part of the thread.  We all get it, and no one is being bad, or mean, or 
misrepresenting the ideas.  Thankfully this also isn't a tire debate, nor an us 
vs. them thread. Let's change the name: Tires in the Goldilocks zone? 


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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

84 inches?  You're a beast!

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Philip Williamson
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 2:31 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

I think tires can make a big difference, and could easily bridge that gap 
between "good" and "great."

I put Marathon Supremes on a bike, after running 700x60 Big Apples, and the 
Marathons felt doggier. Plus I was measurably slower against my friends, and up 
timed climbs. I just switched them for 29x2.1 Vee Rubber mini-knobbies, and 
they are much faster, both in feel and empirically.
Tubeless setups, same bike, same rims, same gearing, different performance. The 
only other change was wider bars, but I don't climb out of the saddle on a 
geared bike on the pavement.

I would love to try Supermoto tires, and I'd put the BAs back on a bike, but 
I'm unlikely to ever use those Marathons again. They really did make me 
disappointed in the bike I'd bought. 

Big Apples on frame 1: reasonably fast with the lunchtime roadies. Single 
Marathon Supreme on the back, noticeably slower. Frame 2 with both tires 
Marathon Supremes, rear tubeless: slower yet. The Marathons did well in the 
dirt, though, which was unexpected. Frame 2 with Vee Rubber knobbies, both 
tubeless: superfun, way faster. I was now towing or dropping riders who had 
been towing me. 20 seconds faster up the 1 mile climb than my previous fastest, 
which was set on my Quickbeam, 84" gear, C-lines.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Tim Gavin]

I like this game.  I ride fast and heavy, just like the aircraft I flew for
5 years--the B-1B .  I love the
ride of 700c 26mm Cerf Blue tires on my Gofast Giordana, and I love the
ride of the 650b 38mm Lierre tires on my Riv Road.


On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Matthew J  wrote:

> I switched from Schwalbe Supremes to Grand Bois.  The ride difference is
> immediately and profoundly obvious.
>>
>> I fully understand that some people ride in conditions where flat
> protection is more important than other considerations.  With Schwalbe that
> protection comes with a big loss of riding pleasure.
>
> Of the Schwlabes I've ridden, the Kojaks provide the best combination of
> smooth ride and flat protection.  Even the Kojak does not come close to the
> Grand Bois Extra Leger.
>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Matt Lynch]

I primarily commute an average of 150 miles a week year round in the 
Pacific Northwest.  On cold winter mornings at 5:00 AM the last thing I 
want is a flat. At first I was disappointed with the Schwalbe Supremes 
because I had four flats in the first couple thousand miles.  Than, after 
reading several threads about lower tire pressures I decided to 
experiment.  I stopped pumping them up to 80 psi and started pumping them 
up to only 50-60 psi.  Sometimes I went as low as 40 psi.  I haven't had a 
flat in 4,000+ miles! (knock-on-wood) and ride quality has improved.

I would like to try a livelier tire though.  Taking the advice on this 
thread into consideration, I will probably talk myself into a set of winter 
and summer tires.  And maybe I will do just that :>)  

Matt

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Matthew J]

I switched from Schwalbe Supremes to Grand Bois.  The ride difference is 
immediately and profoundly obvious.  
>
> I fully understand that some people ride in conditions where flat 
protection is more important than other considerations.  With Schwalbe that 
protection comes with a big loss of riding pleasure.

Of the Schwlabes I've ridden, the Kojaks provide the best combination of 
smooth ride and flat protection.  Even the Kojak does not come close to the 
Grand Bois Extra Leger.

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Philip Williamson]

I think tires can make a big difference, and could easily bridge that gap 
between "good" and "great."

I put Marathon Supremes on a bike, after running 700x60 Big Apples, and the 
Marathons felt doggier. Plus I was measurably slower against my friends, and up 
timed climbs. I just switched them for 29x2.1 Vee Rubber mini-knobbies, and 
they are much faster, both in feel and empirically.
Tubeless setups, same bike, same rims, same gearing, different performance. The 
only other change was wider bars, but I don't climb out of the saddle on a 
geared bike on the pavement.

I would love to try Supermoto tires, and I'd put the BAs back on a bike, but 
I'm unlikely to ever use those Marathons again. They really did make me 
disappointed in the bike I'd bought. 

Big Apples on frame 1: reasonably fast with the lunchtime roadies. Single 
Marathon Supreme on the back, noticeably slower. Frame 2 with both tires 
Marathon Supremes, rear tubeless: slower yet. The Marathons did well in the 
dirt, though, which was unexpected. Frame 2 with Vee Rubber knobbies, both 
tubeless: superfun, way faster. I was now towing or dropping riders who had 
been towing me. 20 seconds faster up the 1 mile climb than my previous fastest, 
which was set on my Quickbeam, 84" gear, C-lines.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Michael]

>
> You can buy from Compass with confidence.
>
I have had nothing but excellent customer service from them, and they are 
delightful to do business with.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[ted]

Though if the guys myth was formed by riding a Sam with little Ben schwalbes at 
30psi you might be wrong.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[ted]

152 plus shipping

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[ted]

Mat,
I doubt that you could tell any difference in the ride of an Asian Sam and a 
Wisconsin one. Please put yourself at ease over that.
Tires can make quite a difference. Pressure, width and construction all make a 
difference. Sometimes the tires on test bikes at RBW are at very low pressure, 
you might try reducing the amount of air you put in your tires. If the tires 
you rode on the test bike were Jack Browns there are two versions of that tire, 
one with and one without an anti puncture layer. The lighter version of the 
Jack Brown, and the heavier version of the similar width tire from Compas Bikes 
may ride similarly.
I have ridden the same bike with both 45mm Schwalbe fatties and 32mm Grand 
Boise Cypres tires. They give very different rides. I have another bike with 
the lighter Jack Browns on it. Being a different bike (and with larger wheels) 
it's harder to draw comparisons but I think the lighter Jack Browns and the 
normal Cypres are similar.
The best way to decide what's best for you is to ride the various tires 
yourself. Of course that may be more trouble and/or cost than its worth to you.

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Tim]

> I will preface this post by saying that I tend to not have the most 
> nuanced tastes with anything, i.e. wine, food, cars. But I have 3 
> Rivendells. Homer, Hunqa and Roadeo. I by far put the most miles on my 
> Homer, which I've had for 3 years now. I've mostly run Riv tires, although 
> I had Schwalbe Marathon Racer 28s when I got it. They were the first tires 
> wider than 23s I had used. Contrary to everything I've read, I rarely had 
> flats on my old, too small, stiff, go-fast Cannondale, and before that a 
> go-fast Raleigh, but once I went to the wider Schwalbes on the Homer, I had 
> flat after flat. I was careful about mounting and air pressure, and I was 
> putting in lots of miles training for a cross country, Southern Tier ride. 
> It was really frustrating. I'll bet that season I had close to 20 flats. I 
> switched to Roly Polys later that year and had fewer flats, but still much 
> more than the old 23s pumped to 110psi. I've mostly ridden Jack Browns 
> since. With all these tires I have never felt that I was faster or smoother 
> than any other tire. The biggest difference in comfort to me has been 
> higher volume, lower pressure, which has had me leaning more toward Grant's 
> tire philosophy. Las spring I bought a set of Gran Bois Extra Legers, the 
> light, supple tire, after reading Jan's blog. Again, I didn't feel like I 
> was riding any faster, and the Jan's recommendation is to go with a bit 
> higher pressure due to the suppleness of the sidewalls, and thus the ride 
> was not as cushy as the Jack Brown's. I have to add that I had put on a lot 
> of weight, nearly 40 lbs, to around 240, so I can't imagine feeling fast on 
> any tire. But I had flat issues and after not all that many miles the tan 
> sidewalls began to show threads. I came to the conclusion that Jan was not 
> wrong, but that I was too heavy for such a supple tire. Now this year I've 
> lost weight and to encourage me have set a goal to ride brevets again. I 
> continue to read Jan's blog and want to try his new line of Compass tires. 
> I've ordered the Stampede Pass 32s to replace my current Jack Browns. I 
> didn't get the extra light version this time. If Jan is right, and I tend 
> to think he is, then the decrease in rolling resistence over the course of 
> a 200, 300 or 400km brevet should result in less riding time, or less 
> energy expended, or both. If it results in more flats, though, I have to 
> wonder if there is really a net gain. The tires should be here next week 
> and I'm looking forward to using them on training rides leading up to the 
> May 7th, 200km brevet. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Deacon Patrick]

Matt,

Can't hurt to try new tires, except put a wee dent in your wallet! I was 
astonished how big a difference in trail and died road riding there was 
between the 50mm Dureeme and the 2.25" Smart Sams, so while that is 
obviously a different type of riding, yes, the tire can make a huge 
difference.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Friday, March 14, 2014 10:53:23 PM UTC-6, Matt Lynch wrote:
>
> I purchased a Sam Hillborne after an extended test ride at RBW.  I've put 
> close to 7,000 miles on my bike and have yet to duplicate the ride I 
> experienced on their test bike.  I've always had in the back of my mind the 
> problem was that I bought a Taiwanese model whereas, unbeknownst to me, I 
> test rode a Waterford built Sam.  But there's no way RBW would pull a bait 
> and switch like that...and that's assuming there even is a difference.  So 
> reading this thread I'm thinking it could be the tires.  I'm still trying 
> to wear out my original Schwalbe Supremes so I don't have anything else to 
> compare.  The demo bike I rode had those RBW tires with the checker board 
> tread.  Could there really be that much difference?  And if so, are Jan's 
> recommendations that much sweeter?
>
> Don't get me wrong.  I've hardly ridden my other bikes at all since 
> getting the Hillborne.  I am a happy camper.  But I also have to accept the 
> fact that I'm am a person who lives in the camp of high value and 
> durability.  So when it comes right down to it, I'm just trying to figure 
> out if I may just be my own worst enemy when it comes to tires.
>
> Matt
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Interesting. I too have Supremes on my Sam Hillborne. I had Marathon Pluses on 
my last bike, so I'm pretty happy with them. I can't be messing with flats on 
my way to work so the Supremes are staying on for a while. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[justinaugust]

I would say without reservation that swapping tires from Schwalbe to anything 
else - Panaracer, Soma. gran Bois - will get you closer to that mythical 
Riv-ride. 

-j

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/15/2014 12:53 AM, Matt Lynch wrote:
I purchased a Sam Hillborne after an extended test ride at RBW.  I've 
put close to 7,000 miles on my bike and have yet to duplicate the ride 
I experienced on their test bike. I've always had in the back of my 
mind the problem was that I bought a Taiwanese model whereas, 
unbeknownst to me, I test rode a Waterford built Sam.  But there's no 
way RBW would pull a bait and switch like that...and that's assuming 
there even is a difference.  So reading this thread I'm thinking it 
could be the tires.  I'm still trying to wear out my original Schwalbe 
Supremes so I don't have anything else to compare.  The demo bike I 
rode had those RBW tires with the checker board tread. Could there 
really be that much difference?  And if so, are Jan's recommendations 
that much sweeter?


Don't get me wrong.  I've hardly ridden my other bikes at all since 
getting the Hillborne.  I am a happy camper.  But I also have to 
accept the fact that I'm am a person who lives in the camp of high 
value and durability.  So when it comes right down to it, I'm just 
trying to figure out if I may just be my own worst enemy when it comes 
to tires.


Matt, how much money would it cost to buy a pair of the best tires 
available and try them?  $120?



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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Matt Lynch]

I purchased a Sam Hillborne after an extended test ride at RBW.  I've put 
close to 7,000 miles on my bike and have yet to duplicate the ride I 
experienced on their test bike.  I've always had in the back of my mind the 
problem was that I bought a Taiwanese model whereas, unbeknownst to me, I 
test rode a Waterford built Sam.  But there's no way RBW would pull a bait 
and switch like that...and that's assuming there even is a difference.  So 
reading this thread I'm thinking it could be the tires.  I'm still trying 
to wear out my original Schwalbe Supremes so I don't have anything else to 
compare.  The demo bike I rode had those RBW tires with the checker board 
tread.  Could there really be that much difference?  And if so, are Jan's 
recommendations that much sweeter?

Don't get me wrong.  I've hardly ridden my other bikes at all since getting 
the Hillborne.  I am a happy camper.  But I also have to accept the fact 
that I'm am a person who lives in the camp of high value and durability.  
So when it comes right down to it, I'm just trying to figure out if I may 
just be my own worst enemy when it comes to tires.

Matt

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Philip Williamson]

That's a beautiful and apt metaphor. 

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Scott G.]

Moderation in all things,

Schwalbe Ultremo 28mm, not as fragile as a GB, but not a flying tank.

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Coconutbill]

>
> I'm glad there's so many tire choices in 650b... 
>
 
I had been riding B-lines but recently switched to an ultra-economical pair 
of TourRides... no flats in months! 
Granted, I think the TourRides may be less responsive than ultra-light 
supple tires, but  I see these as two distinctly different tires for 
distinct purposes. For the longest time my A.H.H. was my only bicycle, and 
vehicle. In my case, the harder Continental tires have been a godsend when 
carrying groceries and riding offroad.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 05:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I want to play!



Grant?



If not, then surely it must be one of the list members who were so 
wrapped up in the coffee grinder for use while camping discussion a 
couple of weeks ago.  This rig probably has one of those full-bore $3000 
espresso machines included.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Bill Lindsay]

I want to play!



Grant?





Jan?


The rivbike.com page that will annoy the "supple-philes" is this one: 
 http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=90

The quote that will get you is "Forget thin sidewalls"


>>>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[ted]

way off topic but,
the SR71 was developed after the U2 and removed from service before it so 
yea the U2 is arguably superior to its shorter lived progeny.

On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:19:05 AM UTC-7, Allan in Portland wrote:
>
> U2 superior to the 
> SR71? 
> Bah!
>
> Though sorry you missed our Dalles Mtn 60 last weekend as the subject of 
> those aircraft did come up. :)
>
> -Allan
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>  On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:
>>  
>> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making 
>> his decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely 
>> be willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin 
>> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread 
>> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>>  
>>
>> Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's 
>> another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was 
>> tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs 
>> Jan approaches:
>>
>> *Grant*
>>
>>
>> A-10
>>
>>
>> vs 
>>
>> *Jan*
>>
>>
>> U-2
>>
>> (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each 
>> type ever developed...)
>>
>>  

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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Evan Baird]

There is a reason the Fatty Rumpkin forcefield tires are made as burly as 
they make them.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[RJM]

Yes, and also, Grant and the crew at riv seem to be more into bike touring, 
or at least loading the bike with heavy stuff if needed. I would imagine a 
bike set up for doing s24o's at Mt. Diablo will need different and sturdier 
tires than a bike set up for randonneuring. 
 
Just look at some pictures of the riv folk riding their bikes and compare 
them to Jan and his buddies ridingtwo different tasks and they require 
different tires. 
 

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:36:06 AM UTC-5, AaronY wrote:

> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his 
> decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be 
> willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin 
> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread 
> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains. 
>
> -Aaron Young
> The Dalles, OR
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:23 AM, tdusky  >wrote:
>
>> From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy, 
>> Riding on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work. 
>> Tom Dusky
>> Huntington Woods, MI 
>>
>>
>> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote: 
>>>
>>>  Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  
>>> (vs the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
>>> description of a Conti tire:
>>>
>>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
>>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
>>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
>>> bumps..."
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[HunqRider]

I recently learned about the new Jan's new Compass tires, and I bought the 
700x38c Barlow Pass version, with the extra-light sidewalls.  Only had a 
chance to ride them once so far, but it felt like an improvement over my 
old 700x40c Schwalbe Marathon Duremes.  They felt like they would "spin-up" 
from a dead stop a lot faster, which makes sense since I think the weight 
savings is about 100g per tire; much less rotating mass.  At full speed 
they were fine, didn't get any flats, even when I rode right through a pile 
of broken glass shards (couldn't avoid it).  I ran them at 60 psi on my 
Velocity Synergy rims, and this lower PSI probably helped with avoiding 
punctures (I used to run the Duremes at 70-80 psi).  Gotta get more riding 
time with them, but so far I'm a fan.  The all-black look of the tires is 
sweet too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[pb]

Jan:

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jan Heine]

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:25:49 AM UTC-7, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> You can't make something fly just by making it light.  
>

You are totally right. You cannot make a great tire just by making it 
light, either. 

Aircraft design, especially in the early days before prodigious horsepower 
could lift even huge weights, was a careful balance of lightness and 
strength. On bicycles, we still live in that age, because we cannot 
increase the horsepower much. Even a professional racer puts out only 
little more than a single horsepower, and not for long!

Back to tires, there are many factors that have to be considered. We could 
make our tires lighter, but only at the expense of a greatly reduced 
longevity. We'd gain very little in speed, so to me, the trade-off was not 
worth it. The art lies in making the right compromises, and of course, 
everybody will value different compromises depending on how they ride. 
There is no "perfect" tire, but a variety of perfect tires optimized for 
different riding styles.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/14/2014 12:25 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:
You can't make something fly just by making it light. While weight is 
certainly a critical parameter in determining performance as stated in 
payload/range and speed, no airplane needs to be "light enough to 
fly".  It needs to have enough lift from it's wings to overcome 
whatever weight it is trying to fly with, and enough thrust to propel 
the aircraft to a forward speed high enough where the wings produce 
the required lift, while overcoming aerodynamic drag.


You're in Seattle, just look down the road to Everett where they build 
the 777 and 747.  The max gross takeoff weight of a 747-8, the current 
production model, is nearly 1 million pounds.  The max gross takeoff 
weight of the heaviest current 777 model, the 777-300ER, is 766,000lbs.


Someone mentioned the U-2 earlier.  While a beautiful and graceful 
aircraft, the wing characteristics and the altitude it flies at cause 
it to have a very nasty "coffin corner" where the speeds available at 
cruise between mach buffet (overspeed) and stall speed are very 
small.  It's a good plane to look at but it's quite tricky to fly.


"Good" and "easy to fly" are not synonyms.The U2 has been in service 
since 1957 and is in service today.  Can there be better evidence that 
it's good at its job?




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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jim Bronson]

You can't make something fly just by making it light.  While weight is
certainly a critical parameter in determining performance as stated in
payload/range and speed, no airplane needs to be "light enough to fly".  It
needs to have enough lift from it's wings to overcome whatever weight it is
trying to fly with, and enough thrust to propel the aircraft to a forward
speed high enough where the wings produce the required lift, while
overcoming aerodynamic drag.

You're in Seattle, just look down the road to Everett where they build the
777 and 747.  The max gross takeoff weight of a 747-8, the current
production model, is nearly 1 million pounds.  The max gross takeoff weight
of the heaviest current 777 model, the 777-300ER, is 766,000lbs.

Someone mentioned the U-2 earlier.  While a beautiful and graceful
aircraft, the wing characteristics and the altitude it flies at cause it to
have a very nasty "coffin corner" where the speeds available at cruise
between mach buffet (overspeed) and stall speed are very small.  It's a
good plane to look at but it's quite tricky to fly.


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Jan Heine  wrote:

> Any airplane must be light enough to fly, and strong enough to survive
> turbulence. It's a fine balancing act, and it's the reason why Rene Herse's
> bikes are so amazing: He learned his craft building prototype aircraft,
> including the first plane to fly across the Atlantic the hard way - against
> the westerly winds. His vision has greatly influenced how I see bikes:
> Light enough to fly, but strong enough to survive turbulence. So we don't
> make "event" tires, but we also don't make "bullet-proof" tires you can
> ride even without air in them.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> www.bikequarterly.com
>
> Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/
>
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>>  On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:
>> Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's
>> another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was
>> tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs
>> Jan approaches:
>>
>> *Grant*
>>
>>
>> A-10
>>
>>
>> vs
>>
>> *Jan*
>>
>>
>> U-2
>>
>> (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each
>> type ever developed...)
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jan Heine]

Any airplane must be light enough to fly, and strong enough to survive 
turbulence. It's a fine balancing act, and it's the reason why Rene Herse's 
bikes are so amazing: He learned his craft building prototype aircraft, 
including the first plane to fly across the Atlantic the hard way – against 
the westerly winds. His vision has greatly influenced how I see bikes: 
Light enough to fly, but strong enough to survive turbulence. So we don't 
make "event" tires, but we also don't make "bullet-proof" tires you can 
ride even without air in them.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:
> Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's 
> another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was 
> tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs 
> Jan approaches:
>
> *Grant*
>
>
> A-10
>
>
> vs 
>
> *Jan*
>
>
> U-2
>
> (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each type 
> ever developed...)
>
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Bill Gibson]

I'm just glad I can choose both! When I ride on pretty good to poor
surfaces I can one, when I ride through cactus, goatheads, glass, and
flint, I can choose the other. I can underbike, and I can overbike!


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Allan in Portland
wrote:

> U2 superior to the 
> SR71?
> Bah!
>
> Though sorry you missed our Dalles Mtn 60 last weekend as the subject of
> those aircraft did come up. :)
>
> -Allan
>
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>  On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:
>>
>> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making
>> his decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely
>> be willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin
>> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread
>> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>>
>>
>> Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's
>> another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was
>> tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs
>> Jan approaches:
>>
>> *Grant*
>>
>>
>> A-10
>>
>>
>> vs
>>
>> *Jan*
>>
>>
>> U-2
>>
>> (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each
>> type ever developed...)
>>
>>   --
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-- 
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Allan in Portland]

U2 superior to the 
SR71? 
Bah!

Though sorry you missed our Dalles Mtn 60 last weekend as the subject of 
those aircraft did come up. :)

-Allan

On Friday, March 14, 2014 7:49:30 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>  On 03/14/2014 10:36 AM, Aaron Young wrote:
>  
> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his 
> decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be 
> willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin 
> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread 
> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>  
>
> Outweighs those performance gains for a specific type of riding.  It's 
> another example of 'horses for courses.'  When this thread began, I was 
> tempted to post a couple of photos illustrating & comparing the Grant vs 
> Jan approaches:
>
> *Grant*
>
>
> A-10
>
>
> vs 
>
> *Jan*
>
>
> U-2
>
> (Note, that both examples represent perhaps the best aircraft of each type 
> ever developed...)
>
>  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Ron Mc]

Weighting advantages and disadvantages is why tires are a such a personal 
choice, and nothing about tire choices can ever be made empirical.  

On Friday, March 14, 2014 9:36:06 AM UTC-5, AaronY wrote:
>
> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his 
> decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be 
> willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin 
> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread 
> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>
> -Aaron Young
> The Dalles, OR
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:23 AM, tdusky  >wrote:
>
>> From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy, 
>> Riding on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.
>> Tom Dusky
>> Huntington Woods, MI
>>
>>
>> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs 
>>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
>>> description of a Conti tire:
>>>
>>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
>>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
>>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
>>> bumps..."
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Jim Bronson]

Another vote for the pure cycling joy of light, easy rolling tires.


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Steven Frederick  wrote:

> I can certainly find either type of tire useful in some applications.  I
> just thought this was kind of a nifty summation of his preferences...
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Aaron Young <1ce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making
>> his decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely
>> be willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin
>> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread
>> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>>
>> -Aaron Young
>> The Dalles, OR
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:23 AM, tdusky  wrote:
>>
>>> From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy,
>>> Riding on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.
>>> Tom Dusky
>>> Huntington Woods, MI
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:

 Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs
 the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website
 description of a Conti tire:

 "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and
 for more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead.
 Combo tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging
 out the bumps..."

 Steve

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Steven Frederick]

I can certainly find either type of tire useful in some applications.  I
just thought this was kind of a nifty summation of his preferences...

Steve


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Aaron Young <1ce...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his
> decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be
> willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin
> tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread
> and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.
>
> -Aaron Young
> The Dalles, OR
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:23 AM, tdusky  wrote:
>
>> From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy,
>> Riding on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.
>> Tom Dusky
>> Huntington Woods, MI
>>
>>
>> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs
>>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website
>>> description of a Conti tire:
>>>
>>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for
>>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo
>>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the
>>> bumps..."
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[Aaron Young]

I too prefer Joy over Work.  However, I think Grant is probably making his
decision based on more than just the feel of the tire.  He would likely be
willing to concede that a lighter tire with a supple(r) casing and thin
tread might provide a superior ride, but the benefits of a thicker tread
and stiffer sidewall outweigh those performance gains.

-Aaron Young
The Dalles, OR


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:23 AM, tdusky  wrote:

> From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy, Riding
> on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.
> Tom Dusky
> Huntington Woods, MI
>
>
> On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>>
>> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs
>> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website
>> description of a Conti tire:
>>
>> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for
>> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo
>> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the
>> bumps..."
>>
>> Steve
>>
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[RBW] Re: Grant on tires

[tdusky]

>From my own experience, Riding on tires that Jan likes is pure joy, Riding 
on tires that Grant likes is work. I prefer joy over work.
Tom Dusky
Huntington Woods, MI

On Friday, March 14, 2014 8:59:31 AM UTC-4, stevef wrote:
>
> Interesting encapsulation of Grant's preference for beefier tires.  (vs 
> the supple casing, light racy tires Jan espouses)  From the RBW website 
> description of a Conti tire:
>
> "...It has a good, stiff sidewall for reduced flex and fatigue, and for 
> more support should you ever have to ride it dead flat. Wire bead. Combo 
> tread. Mounts easily and as straight as an arrow, with no massaging out the 
> bumps..."
>
> Steve
>

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