[RBW] Re: mechanical question
It means you're using good high-torque tools that won't damage the fastener. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
Using a torque wrench would help. May be over tightening. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
L O *L!* On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Peter Adler wrote: > Some of us would be grateful just to strip fasteners. > > I've ridden 50.4 5-pin French cranksets for a long time. For reasons > related to backward compatibility to bits developed in the 1930s, those > cranks/chainrings use 8mm fasteners, noticea smaller than the 10mm > chainring bolts common since the rise of Campagnolo. For reasons related to > limited materials access after WWII (and possibly French stubbornness), > said teeny connectors were typically made of wussy soft steel. This is an > unfortunate combination. > > I have a stash of TA/Stronglight/Nervar chainring bolts that I attempted > to tighten to the point where the connection wouldn't wiggle, when POP! the > head of the near-unobtainium hex bolt snapped off, leaving me with the > stump of the bolt plugging the near-unobtainium sleeved nut. I've hung onto > the nuts, in the wishful fantasy that someday I'll get a teeny-tiny > easy-out and extract the stumps, leaving me with nuts in case I ever find > replacement bolts. Yeah, right. > > VO sells substitute cyclotouriste bolts, but only for doubles. I harangued > them for years to get them to sell triples (same bolt, same spacers, same > nut with a longer sleeve), and they kept doing the VO classic "Well, maybe! > We'll see if there's a demand!", which is their polite way of saying "get > outta here, and stop bothering us with your fringy obsessions. We're not > actually trying to make parts for cyclotouristes; we're trying to make > parts that make you *look* like a cyclotouriste. Can't you see that > cassettes+compact doubles is all we care about?". I haven't tried to > harangue the new owners; maybe they'll be more interested. > > I've come to adopt the position of the great midcentury photographer Henri > Cartier-Bresson: When tightening the teeny French chainring bolts, there is > a *decisive moment*: the moment at which you've gotten the connector > tight enough to perform its function but not yet tight enough to destroy > the connector. Some days I feel that decisive moment, and other days I > *don't*. I try to avoid messing with my chainrings on the *don't* days. > And always root around in the bolt bins at the bike kitchen, looking for > the ones that got tossed in because they're obviously too small to be > useful for anything. > > Peter "if you love your weirdo chainring bolts, let them go. If they > break, they were never really yours" Adler > Berkeley, CA/USA > > PS for Patrick: It is equally well known that small children are resistant > to use the "sh" sound, as it is a weapon frequently used for small-child > oppression. > > "No, *you* be quiet, Daddy!" > > On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 3:41:31 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> O! Very well known! >> >> Patrick "torque it some more" Moore >> >> Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some >> elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!". >> >> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: >> >>> Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" >>> zone when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you >>> stripped it. >>> >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- *30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price contract. And still more! I am offering services in trade for a road bike, or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.* Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
Some of us would be grateful just to strip fasteners. I've ridden 50.4 5-pin French cranksets for a long time. For reasons related to backward compatibility to bits developed in the 1930s, those cranks/chainrings use 8mm fasteners, noticea smaller than the 10mm chainring bolts common since the rise of Campagnolo. For reasons related to limited materials access after WWII (and possibly French stubbornness), said teeny connectors were typically made of wussy soft steel. This is an unfortunate combination. I have a stash of TA/Stronglight/Nervar chainring bolts that I attempted to tighten to the point where the connection wouldn't wiggle, when POP! the head of the near-unobtainium hex bolt snapped off, leaving me with the stump of the bolt plugging the near-unobtainium sleeved nut. I've hung onto the nuts, in the wishful fantasy that someday I'll get a teeny-tiny easy-out and extract the stumps, leaving me with nuts in case I ever find replacement bolts. Yeah, right. VO sells substitute cyclotouriste bolts, but only for doubles. I harangued them for years to get them to sell triples (same bolt, same spacers, same nut with a longer sleeve), and they kept doing the VO classic "Well, maybe! We'll see if there's a demand!", which is their polite way of saying "get outta here, and stop bothering us with your fringy obsessions. We're not actually trying to make parts for cyclotouristes; we're trying to make parts that make you *look* like a cyclotouriste. Can't you see that cassettes+compact doubles is all we care about?". I haven't tried to harangue the new owners; maybe they'll be more interested. I've come to adopt the position of the great midcentury photographer Henri Cartier-Bresson: When tightening the teeny French chainring bolts, there is a *decisive moment*: the moment at which you've gotten the connector tight enough to perform its function but not yet tight enough to destroy the connector. Some days I feel that decisive moment, and other days I *don't*. I try to avoid messing with my chainrings on the *don't* days. And always root around in the bolt bins at the bike kitchen, looking for the ones that got tossed in because they're obviously too small to be useful for anything. Peter "if you love your weirdo chainring bolts, let them go. If they break, they were never really yours" Adler Berkeley, CA/USA PS for Patrick: It is equally well known that small children are resistant to use the "sh" sound, as it is a weapon frequently used for small-child oppression. "No, *you* be quiet, Daddy!" On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 3:41:31 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: > > O! Very well known! > > Patrick "torque it some more" Moore > > Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some > elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!". > > On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar > wrote: > >> Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" zone >> when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you stripped it. >> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: mechanical question
I'll second Joe's comment. The absolute worst allen keys are the kind that come along with something like a set of furniture from Ikea. They're made to be used once and that's about it. After that throw them away. It's well worth while to spend the coin to get a decent, high quality set of keys. They will fit better and hold up longer. I'll also give a +1 to Bill's previous comment. The smaller hex key bolts are the worst. Clearly, they are not intended to handle much torque. The most common place I've encountered a problem with these (non-bike) are in places like the headless hex bolts used to secure something like a thin mobile antenna wire to an antenna mount. Hopefully they don't get applied to bikes much except with accessories. On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 6:07:45 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote: > > Others have focused more on soft bolts, so I'll stress that a quality set > of allen keys helps a lot. I have a drawer full of cheap 5M allens that > have rounded off; I just bought a decent home mechanic's tool kit from > Pedro's which has good wrenches that fit solidly in allen-head bolts. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
O! Very well known! Patrick "torque it some more" Moore Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!". On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" zone > when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you stripped it. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
I figured this out when I broke off the bolt in one of my Ergon grips. Now I have a Ritchey 5NM wrench that I use for everything around the handlebars and stem clamp. To the OP, I would also add it is VERY easy to strip a bolt if the bolt is soft metal and the hex wrench is hardened. I had it happen on two out of four bolts on my crankset. I felt like an idiot taking it to a mechanic but I'm sure they see stuff like that on a regular basis. I also told them to trash those aluminum chainring bolts and get me some steel ones. On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 4:35:09 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: > > One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque > proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit more > tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago incident, > where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- she had bought > a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the saddle to an efficient > height, and I said something amusing about being uptight and overtightening > bolts and nuts. > > Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, that > one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding this or > that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of bolt/nut > integrity. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
On 04/23/2017 05:35 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit more tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago incident, where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- she had bought a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the saddle to an efficient height, and I said something amusing about being uptight and overtightening bolts and nuts. Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, that one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding this or that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of bolt/nut integrity. Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" zone when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you stripped it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question
One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit more tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago incident, where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- she had bought a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the saddle to an efficient height, and I said something amusing about being uptight and overtightening bolts and nuts. Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, that one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding this or that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of bolt/nut integrity. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: mechanical question
It's more common with smaller allen keys. 3mm allen heads are the worst. Many of the hardware kits for racks come with a bunch of 3mm pan head bolts and a free allen wrench. The wrench sucks so it's easy to round it out. Rack hardware should be pretty tight, but 3mm pan heads are horrible. If that's possibly your situation, replace all the 3mm pan head M5 bolts with 4mm or 5mm button head M5 bolts. Aside from the special case of all-too-common 3mm pan head bolts, cheap or worn tools, low quality fasteners and overtightening are all possible causes. Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 12:58:27 PM UTC-7, Jim S. wrote: > > This might be an obvious thing that I'm just not aware of. So I ask. > > When I tighten or untighten bolts with a hex wrench, sometimes the wrench > gets stuck in the bolt. Is this a common problem? Is this caused by > something dumb that I'm doing? Thanks in advance for your expertise. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: mechanical question
Jim, I do know what you mean, and it does happen to me as Deacon describes. I always take it that I am reaching some sort of limit (of the screw or bolt), either designed or not... sometimes the bolts are actually relatively soft, inexpensive, and not meant to be re-used many times. I was putting a rack accessory on a Yuba Mundo and the bolts provided were pretty questionable. I guess the point is that one should be aware of the torque needed on something... I used to wrench down things beyond reason and that was a problem. But if the problem happens too quickly with a screw or bolt, on something I think should be tightened more than the bolt or screw seems designed for, then I normally make a note to find better, harder, higher quality bolts and/or screws... or I suppose also checking my allen wrenches!? Just to show I am evolving, small steps anyway, I have even broken out a torque wrench lately on things I did not want to guess at and that were important. If you ever do completely round out an allen-type bolt, I have used a Dremel to cut a slice across the head, then use a flat blade screw driver to get it out. I then say some level of thanks to the "powers that be" and promise to never do that again... or try not to. Bob -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: mechanical question
Well, I can eventually get them separated with some tapping, or banging, as the case may be, but I was wondering if there's some obvious way to avoid the problem, that I just don't know. I concede up front that it might be a dopey question. On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 3:13:56 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote: > > If by "stuck" you mean that a gentle wiggle or tap shakes it loose and > then it can be pulled out, yes, that happens to me often. I've never had it > happen more severely than that though. > > With abandon, > Patrick > > On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 1:58:27 PM UTC-6, Jim S. wrote: >> >> This might be an obvious thing that I'm just not aware of. So I ask. >> >> When I tighten or untighten bolts with a hex wrench, sometimes the wrench >> gets stuck in the bolt. Is this a common problem? Is this caused by >> something dumb that I'm doing? Thanks in advance for your expertise. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: mechanical question
If by "stuck" you mean that a gentle wiggle or tap shakes it loose and then it can be pulled out, yes, that happens to me often. I've never had it happen more severely than that though. With abandon, Patrick On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 1:58:27 PM UTC-6, Jim S. wrote: > > This might be an obvious thing that I'm just not aware of. So I ask. > > When I tighten or untighten bolts with a hex wrench, sometimes the wrench > gets stuck in the bolt. Is this a common problem? Is this caused by > something dumb that I'm doing? Thanks in advance for your expertise. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
