[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
+1 for firefox website architecture style On Apr 10, 12:08 pm, Harald Schilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The right thing to do is to make Sage easier > > to install. > > Yes, of course, I wanted to point out where the problem is and how it > could be handled, the current issue with the Windows install, in my > opinion, is the lack of a native port. And then MSI!! > > MSI is necessary, because system administrators for networks of > computers use them like linux packages to push-install them on all > machines .. that's impossible for .exe setups !. so, i think, that's > the "best" solution, but i know this is not done until tomorrow... > (and there are admins who _only_ take msi packages and forget about > the rest ... too much work) > > @webpage: > > On Apr 10, 6:04 pm, Martin Albrecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > Btw. I think Harald is working on redesigning the website anyway. > > Yes, I'll try to make it easier ... less text, less clicks, gives a > higher information density. But it's also not done until tomorrow. > Personally, I don't like the firefox install site, but i'll collect > all ideas and mix something up. > > Harald --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The right thing to do is to make Sage easier > to install. Yes, of course, I wanted to point out where the problem is and how it could be handled, the current issue with the Windows install, in my opinion, is the lack of a native port. And then MSI!! MSI is necessary, because system administrators for networks of computers use them like linux packages to push-install them on all machines .. that's impossible for .exe setups !. so, i think, that's the "best" solution, but i know this is not done until tomorrow... (and there are admins who _only_ take msi packages and forget about the rest ... too much work) @webpage: On Apr 10, 6:04 pm, Martin Albrecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Btw. I think Harald is working on redesigning the website anyway. Yes, I'll try to make it easier ... less text, less clicks, gives a higher information density. But it's also not done until tomorrow. Personally, I don't like the firefox install site, but i'll collect all ideas and mix something up. Harald --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Martin Albrecht <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I reckon it needs to be WAY simpler than this. It needs to be a > > single click from the main page, labelled "Download Sage for > > Microsoft Windows", which goes straight to a self-extracting > > installer. The contents of README.txt need to be put on the screen > > without even needing to click on README.txt. > > I guess something like the firefox website would be feasible > >http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/ > > (I mean the green button-like thing) > > Btw. I think Harald is working on redesigning the website anyway. Yes, let's make it official. Harald Schilly is now the new official sagemath.org webmaster! And he's working on doing all kinds of cool stuff... And yes, browser detection, etc., for downloading Sage binaries is a great idea. Fortunately, there are many good examples out there to look at? Do you have a favorite site regarding the download process for their software? If so, speak up. Personally I agree with Martin that Firefox is quite good. -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
> I reckon it needs to be WAY simpler than this. It needs to be a > single click from the main page, labelled "Download Sage for > Microsoft Windows", which goes straight to a self-extracting > installer. The contents of README.txt need to be put on the screen > without even needing to click on README.txt. I guess something like the firefox website would be feasible http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/ (I mean the green button-like thing) Btw. I think Harald is working on redesigning the website anyway. Martin -- name: Martin Albrecht _pgp: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8EF0DC99 _www: http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~malb _jab: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:35 AM, mabshoff wrote: > On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than >> any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. >> I see no reason to compromise on this at all, since the >> goal is to provide a viable alternative to Mathematica, >> Maple, Matlab, and Magma. Part of this is that Sage must be >> as easy to install as those programs. > > Sage *is* easy to install provided one is capable of reading and > following README.txt. All the points about computer literacy aside > [insert "when I was young I had to walk both ways to school uphill" > rant] I believe that this is a sad, sad world when somebody who is > attempting to get a college education is incapable of following a > simple README.txt. And I am not asking people to do anything hard > here, i.e. Robert's argument that people should learn mathematics > instead of CS skills does not reflect reality, but to follow an url, > download a 1MB binary and install it. > > Other people in IRC have pointed out that my expectations of the > average college student seem rather high and not grounded in reality, > so I have no intention of opposing the switch to zip files for the > vmware image. But it is my understanding the people at a University > are supposed to acquire the skills to solve problems, i.e. become > capable to approach a problem they have never solved and solve it by > thinking about it. I don't want to sound like an elitist jerk [too > late I guess], but if you are foiled by a 7zip archive maybe we have a > case of PEBKAC :) [look it up if you don't know what that is ;)] I don't think the issue is whether or not the prospective user is capable of following instructions. The real issue is the cost-benefit analysis for the prospective user. I think there are a lot of potential users who might have vaguely heard about Sage from a colleague/teacher/whoever, and get to sagemath.org, and have to figure out what to do next. For many of these people, we now have their eyeballs for about 15 seconds. If they can't figure out how to download and start using Sage with less neurons than it takes to get distracted by the newspaper or their cup of coffee or whatever, then we lose them. The thing is, they *don't care about Sage yet*, and if the coffee smells better, they'll go for the coffee. So for this reason I advocate we push this even further. We should try to absolutely minimise the number of clicks needed to get them running Sage on their own machine. Currently on sagemath.org, they have to do the following: (1) click on download, (2) click on Microsoft Windows Binary (note that many users may not even know what "binary" means), (3) figure out that they need to download the zip file, i.e. click on it (note that many users at this stage might never have seen an apache-served directory listing) I reckon it needs to be WAY simpler than this. It needs to be a single click from the main page, labelled "Download Sage for Microsoft Windows", which goes straight to a self-extracting installer. The contents of README.txt need to be put on the screen without even needing to click on README.txt. david --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 8:35 AM, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than > > any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. > > I see no reason to compromise on this at all, since the > > goal is to provide a viable alternative to Mathematica, > > Maple, Matlab, and Magma. Part of this is that Sage must be > > as easy to install as those programs. > > Sage *is* easy to install provided one is capable of reading and > following README.txt. I think the most productive definition of "easy" to to have potential Sage users -- ranging from students to college professors to professionals -- test out the process and report their experiences. If they say it is "easy", then it is easy. If they say it isn't, then it isn't. Simple as that. We've done that a lot recently at UW, and the conclusion is that we have room to improve. Regarding: > > We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than > > any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. > This is very reasonable IMO. > Would it be feasible and reasonable to provide several ways of > installations, with brief comments which one should be chosen? That is feasible. Unfortunately having "several ways of installation" can be the opposite of easy... so let's be careful. -- William > All the points about computer literacy aside > [insert "when I was young I had to walk both ways to school uphill" > rant] I believe that this is a sad, sad world when somebody who is > attempting to get a college education is incapable of following a > simple README.txt. And I am not asking people to do anything hard > here, i.e. Robert's argument that people should learn mathematics > instead of CS skills does not reflect reality, but to follow an url, > download a 1MB binary and install it. > > Other people in IRC have pointed out that my expectations of the > average college student seem rather high and not grounded in reality, > so I have no intention of opposing the switch to zip files for the > vmware image. But it is my understanding the people at a University > are supposed to acquire the skills to solve problems, i.e. become > capable to approach a problem they have never solved and solve it by > thinking about it. I don't want to sound like an elitist jerk [too > late I guess], but if you are foiled by a 7zip archive maybe we have a > case of PEBKAC :) [look it up if you don't know what that is ;)] > > > > -- William > > Cheers, > > Michael > > > > > -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than > any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. > I see no reason to compromise on this at all, since the > goal is to provide a viable alternative to Mathematica, > Maple, Matlab, and Magma. Part of this is that Sage must be > as easy to install as those programs. Sage *is* easy to install provided one is capable of reading and following README.txt. All the points about computer literacy aside [insert "when I was young I had to walk both ways to school uphill" rant] I believe that this is a sad, sad world when somebody who is attempting to get a college education is incapable of following a simple README.txt. And I am not asking people to do anything hard here, i.e. Robert's argument that people should learn mathematics instead of CS skills does not reflect reality, but to follow an url, download a 1MB binary and install it. Other people in IRC have pointed out that my expectations of the average college student seem rather high and not grounded in reality, so I have no intention of opposing the switch to zip files for the vmware image. But it is my understanding the people at a University are supposed to acquire the skills to solve problems, i.e. become capable to approach a problem they have never solved and solve it by thinking about it. I don't want to sound like an elitist jerk [too late I guess], but if you are foiled by a 7zip archive maybe we have a case of PEBKAC :) [look it up if you don't know what that is ;)] > -- William Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
Dear William, On Apr 10, 4:40 pm, "William Stein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than > any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. This is very reasonable IMO. Would it be feasible and reasonable to provide several ways of installations, with brief comments which one should be chosen? Such as a self-extracting thing with the comment "This is the easiest way to download Sage (you are just two clicks away)", and another one "This option is preferred if your internet connection has restricted bandwidth"? In that way, one would fit the requirements of various types of users. Cheers Simon --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
> > Incidentally, here are last weeks download numbers on sagemath.org and > > sage.math.washington.edu (2 of the download sites): > > > > Linux Binary: 81 > > OS X Binary: 42 > > Source: 76 > > VMware: 95 > > > > TOTAL: 294 > > I agree with all this but really just want to pipe in one comment since by > coincidence I looked at the download stats for sage.scipy. What was (to me) > unusualy was the *huge* spike in downloads over the winder break last > December). > (Nearly a 10-fold increase.) That was when Sage got on the cover of slashdot, and there were articles in tons of papers about Sage winning Trophees du Libre. > I would be very interested in knowing if this > 294 number increases around the end of next month, when the summer > break starts for a lot of colleges. 294 in one week is unusually high. -- william --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 10:40 AM, William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Harald Schilly > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Apr 10, 2:14 pm, mhampton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > A link to 7zip.org right by the archive or in the install instructions > > > would help. > > > > will be there ... > > > > > > > but I'm not convinced that computer literacy of any depth > > > as increased ... > > > > Yes, especially because I think that's far more general. That computer > > literacy only increases, if there is some interest/force/reward to > > master the problems [e.g. nobody knows more about graphic cards + > > drivers than active gamers!], but this applies to all areas in life. > > Humans constantly optimize themselves and new things with a barrier > > are avoided, if there are other shorter path to accomplish the task. > > Even if in a long term period the initial higher investment would have > > the greater return of investment. So, emphasis should be in explaining > > why an open system with involvement of everybody is better than a > > closed up encapsulated for-profit one. Then the motivation is higher > > to master install instructions. > > But, disclaimer, that's just my private theory concerning the "dumb > > colorful point and click" vs. "complex and fast functionality" war ;) > > We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than > any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. > I see no reason to compromise on this at all, since the > goal is to provide a viable alternative to Mathematica, > Maple, Matlab, and Magma. Part of this is that Sage must be > as easy to install as those programs. > > I don't think we should try to convince people > to install a difficult-to-install version of Sage because it will be better > for them in the long run. The right thing to do is to make Sage easier > to install.That's been my philosophy since I started Sage, and is > why Sage comes as a complete install, instead of something incomplete > with a huge number of dependencies. > > Until now the main goal has been growing the developer community, > so a lot of effort has gone into making Sage easy to install *for > developers*. I think Sage is in fact easier to install for developers > (i.e., to get a full developer environment setup) than most math > software projects. By this I mean that if one were to > become a Magma developer the barrier to getting everything setup > on your system to do development would I think > be higher than for Sage. > > Incidentally, here are last weeks download numbers on sagemath.org and > sage.math.washington.edu (2 of the download sites): > > Linux Binary: 81 > OS X Binary: 42 > Source: 76 > VMware: 95 > > TOTAL: 294 I agree with all this but really just want to pipe in one comment since by coincidence I looked at the download stats for sage.scipy. What was (to me) unusualy was the *huge* spike in downloads over the winder break last December). (Nearly a 10-fold increase.) I would be very interested in knowing if this 294 number increases around the end of next month, when the summer break starts for a lot of colleges. > > -- William > > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Harald Schilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Apr 10, 2:14 pm, mhampton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > A link to 7zip.org right by the archive or in the install instructions > > would help. > > will be there ... > > > > but I'm not convinced that computer literacy of any depth > > as increased ... > > Yes, especially because I think that's far more general. That computer > literacy only increases, if there is some interest/force/reward to > master the problems [e.g. nobody knows more about graphic cards + > drivers than active gamers!], but this applies to all areas in life. > Humans constantly optimize themselves and new things with a barrier > are avoided, if there are other shorter path to accomplish the task. > Even if in a long term period the initial higher investment would have > the greater return of investment. So, emphasis should be in explaining > why an open system with involvement of everybody is better than a > closed up encapsulated for-profit one. Then the motivation is higher > to master install instructions. > But, disclaimer, that's just my private theory concerning the "dumb > colorful point and click" vs. "complex and fast functionality" war ;) We should make Sage as easy or easier to install than any of Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, or Magma. I see no reason to compromise on this at all, since the goal is to provide a viable alternative to Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, and Magma. Part of this is that Sage must be as easy to install as those programs. I don't think we should try to convince people to install a difficult-to-install version of Sage because it will be better for them in the long run. The right thing to do is to make Sage easier to install.That's been my philosophy since I started Sage, and is why Sage comes as a complete install, instead of something incomplete with a huge number of dependencies. Until now the main goal has been growing the developer community, so a lot of effort has gone into making Sage easy to install *for developers*. I think Sage is in fact easier to install for developers (i.e., to get a full developer environment setup) than most math software projects. By this I mean that if one were to become a Magma developer the barrier to getting everything setup on your system to do development would I think be higher than for Sage. Incidentally, here are last weeks download numbers on sagemath.org and sage.math.washington.edu (2 of the download sites): Linux Binary: 81 OS X Binary: 42 Source: 76 VMware: 95 TOTAL: 294 -- William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 2:14 pm, mhampton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A link to 7zip.org right by the archive or in the install instructions > would help. will be there ... > but I'm not convinced that computer literacy of any depth > as increased ... Yes, especially because I think that's far more general. That computer literacy only increases, if there is some interest/force/reward to master the problems [e.g. nobody knows more about graphic cards + drivers than active gamers!], but this applies to all areas in life. Humans constantly optimize themselves and new things with a barrier are avoided, if there are other shorter path to accomplish the task. Even if in a long term period the initial higher investment would have the greater return of investment. So, emphasis should be in explaining why an open system with involvement of everybody is better than a closed up encapsulated for-profit one. Then the motivation is higher to master install instructions. But, disclaimer, that's just my private theory concerning the "dumb colorful point and click" vs. "complex and fast functionality" war ;) h --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
An anecdote: I have been unable to get 95% of my students to install sage on their own machines; in at least two cases they got hung up on 7zip and came to me for help. Probably several more got stuck and didn't come for help. (To be fair: I haven't tried that hard to push personal installs, since I supply three powerful servers for a class of 12 people, and its easier to collaborate on the servers.) A link to 7zip.org right by the archive or in the install instructions would help. Its funny, I often listen to faculty who are not great with computers marvel at the skills of the "net" generation (or whatever "buzzword" generation), but I'm not convinced that computer literacy of any depth as increased at all since my generation (I'm in my mid-thirties) and if anything I think it might have gone down as people get more and more removed from the underpinnings. -M. Hampton On Apr 10, 5:24 am, Harald Schilly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Apr 10, 4:29 am, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > dortmund.de> wrote: > > It is *341* MB vs. *601* MB, > > that's really huge. > > > Well, I prefer not to use self extracting executables either,... > > Well, I don't see a problem in using a self extracting 7z archive. A > note on the download site with short instructions and a link to > 7zip.org should help everybody. It's really bad to have users unable > to handle compressed archives, because they will have problems with > the vmware system, too. Therefore we need to include good instructions > on the website. > (I'll try to cover these issues in my current design for the next > website) > > h --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 4:29 am, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] dortmund.de> wrote: > It is *341* MB vs. *601* MB, that's really huge. > Well, I prefer not to use self extracting executables either,... Well, I don't see a problem in using a self extracting 7z archive. A note on the download site with short instructions and a link to 7zip.org should help everybody. It's really bad to have users unable to handle compressed archives, because they will have problems with the vmware system, too. Therefore we need to include good instructions on the website. (I'll try to cover these issues in my current design for the next website) h --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
> I personally dislike the idea of extracting things as self-extracting > executables, both because I don't think people should get in the > habit of downloading and double-clicking on .exe files, and also > because it means the VM-ware image can't be (easily) accessed from > non-windows boxes. > > - Robert Thinking about the issue some more. We could provide two installers for the VMWare image: a) an MSI installer which would enable the user to actually uninstall Sage properly b) a 7zip compressed image for all the rest of the people who are not using Windows Thought? Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 9, 10:29 pm, mabshoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED] dortmund.de> wrote: > It is *341* MB vs. *601* MB, i.e. Winzip is 80% larger than 7z. If it > were 10% I couldn't care less. And an 80% size increase is something > that is noticeable at the end of the month. Bandwidth isn't free, in > the end somebody has to pay for it. Is this at Winzip's maximum compression level? 7z is certainly a more obscure format than Winzip's, and the average Windows user would not have it installed. If the only instruction that 7-zip needs to be installed is in the "README.txt" file on the download page, the user might not even read it -- Windows users are not primed to automatically open files named "README". Even if you are using 7-zip, you would have more success by including the 7-zip file and the README in a single (uncompressed) zip archive. Also, it might be worth noting that Winzip (the software) can decompress bzip2 and gzip formats as well, and those formats might offer compression to less than 601 MB. On the other hand, Winzip itself is getting rarer, because of Windows's built-in support for the format (as "compressed folders"). Independent of the compression format, it might also be a good idea to have Sage available through physical CDs on various college campuses, and include in the "Getting Sage" instructions a pointer to where one might obtain Sage. You would probably find volunteer students/faculty at many universities. This would not only help the user get Sage, but also help him/her get it installed, have more packages installed by default, and save you bandwidth. --Shreevatsa --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
Hi, I have no intention of starting a flame war either. :) > > Instead of switching to to Winzip I would much rather use the "Self- > > extracting capability for 7z format" of 7zip. Bandwidth is a finite > > resource and I am not convinced that using some crappy old compression > > technology is the answer. > > Bandwidth is cheap, and though finite we are nowhere near reaching > the limit. An additional 65MB/download or so is much cheaper than > extra support and lost users. We can always offer both formats for > savy users who want to save on download time. If bandwidth is an > issue on the user side (I doubt that extra 65MB is going to change > their mind about downloading it) that is what the DVD option at lulu > is for (which, I just checked, has sold 8 times since I put it up two > weeks ago). It is *341* MB vs. *601* MB, i.e. Winzip is 80% larger than 7z. If it were 10% I couldn't care less. And an 80% size increase is something that is noticeable at the end of the month. Bandwidth isn't free, in the end somebody has to pay for it. > > And people who are unaware of the existence > > of any compression format beyond zip out there will still click on an > > executable. > > I personally dislike the idea of extracting things as self-extracting > executables, both because I don't think people should get in the > habit of downloading and double-clicking on .exe files, and also > because it means the VM-ware image can't be (easily) accessed from > non-windows boxes. Well, I prefer not to use self extracting executables either, but we are talking about a crowd that is unlikely to know the difference. And you can still access self extracting executables via command line utilities on non-Windows platforms. It isn't elegant, but it works. > - Robert Cheers, Michael --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 9, 2008, at 5:18 PM, mabshoff wrote: > On Apr 10, 1:19 am, "Yi Qiang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> William forgot to CC sage-devel. >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:18 PM >> Subject: Re: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary >> To: Yi Qiang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Yi Qiang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> > When creating binary releases for Sage in the future, could we >> please >> > put out a release in the 'zip' format as well as '7z'? >> >> > The success rate of installing Sage in my algebraic geometry >> class is >> > incredibly low. Today 2 students told me they couldn't get Sage >> > working on their Windows machines so they gave up and used Maple >> > instead. >> >> > Both of them were stuck at trying to _decompress_ Sage. They >> had no >> > idea what 7zip was and asked why we use 7zip, instead of >> WinZip, which >> > everyone knows and for which Windows has support built-in. I >> told them >> > about how the compression ratio is better for 7zip. Their >> comment was >> > "it's already such a big download anyways, what's the >> difference?" >> >> > I think using zip instead of 7z removes one of the many hoops >> users >> > have to jump through to get Sage working on their Windows box. >> >> +1 >> >> I very strongly agree with this. I've completely *replaced* the >> 7z file with >> a zip file, updated the readme, etc. +1 I agree with this move. > > Sigh. To put it mildly this borders on the insane. I am all for user > friendliness, but if you are attending college and you are not capable > following simple instructions to install a piece of software than > maybe you aren't ready to use computer algebra software. Sage itself > isn't some program that my virtual aunt Tilly uses to do some basic > computer task, but a full fledged CAS where RTFM is required to use it > beyond the "1+1" stage. Having done my fair share of work as an admin > I can understand that software can be hard to use and/or intimidating, > but this reminds me of a user friendly carton a while back where > instead of a sign at an amusement ride where it said "You must be this > tall to ride this ride" it said "You must be this smart to use the > Internet". The little hand did point above chimp, but below cave man I > will spare you the rest of this rant, but the initial version in my > head did feature a couple choice words I prefer not to write in a > public forum. > I don't want to fan a flame war, but there are a lot of people who would rather spend their time learning about (e.g.) algebraic geometry and what Sage can do for them in that domain then how to decompress an obscure file format. One of the great things about Sage is that it is an easy distribution of math software, and we shouldn't loose site of this goal. I think it is especially important to lower the amount of effort required before there is any return on the investment. > Instead of switching to to Winzip I would much rather use the "Self- > extracting capability for 7z format" of 7zip. Bandwidth is a finite > resource and I am not convinced that using some crappy old compression > technology is the answer. Bandwidth is cheap, and though finite we are nowhere near reaching the limit. An additional 65MB/download or so is much cheaper than extra support and lost users. We can always offer both formats for savy users who want to save on download time. If bandwidth is an issue on the user side (I doubt that extra 65MB is going to change their mind about downloading it) that is what the DVD option at lulu is for (which, I just checked, has sold 8 times since I put it up two weeks ago). > And people who are unaware of the existence > of any compression format beyond zip out there will still click on an > executable. I personally dislike the idea of extracting things as self-extracting executables, both because I don't think people should get in the habit of downloading and double-clicking on .exe files, and also because it means the VM-ware image can't be (easily) accessed from non-windows boxes. - Robert --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: Fwd: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary
On Apr 10, 1:19 am, "Yi Qiang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > William forgot to CC sage-devel. > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: William Stein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:18 PM > Subject: Re: use zip instead of 7zip for distributing the sage binary > To: Yi Qiang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Yi Qiang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > When creating binary releases for Sage in the future, could we please > > put out a release in the 'zip' format as well as '7z'? > > > The success rate of installing Sage in my algebraic geometry class is > > incredibly low. Today 2 students told me they couldn't get Sage > > working on their Windows machines so they gave up and used Maple > > instead. > > > Both of them were stuck at trying to _decompress_ Sage. They had no > > idea what 7zip was and asked why we use 7zip, instead of WinZip, which > > everyone knows and for which Windows has support built-in. I told them > > about how the compression ratio is better for 7zip. Their comment was > > "it's already such a big download anyways, what's the difference?" > > > I think using zip instead of 7z removes one of the many hoops users > > have to jump through to get Sage working on their Windows box. > > +1 > > I very strongly agree with this. I've completely *replaced* the 7z file with > a zip file, updated the readme, etc. Sigh. To put it mildly this borders on the insane. I am all for user friendliness, but if you are attending college and you are not capable following simple instructions to install a piece of software than maybe you aren't ready to use computer algebra software. Sage itself isn't some program that my virtual aunt Tilly uses to do some basic computer task, but a full fledged CAS where RTFM is required to use it beyond the "1+1" stage. Having done my fair share of work as an admin I can understand that software can be hard to use and/or intimidating, but this reminds me of a user friendly carton a while back where instead of a sign at an amusement ride where it said "You must be this tall to ride this ride" it said "You must be this smart to use the Internet". The little hand did point above chimp, but below cave man I will spare you the rest of this rant, but the initial version in my head did feature a couple choice words I prefer not to write in a public forum. Instead of switching to to Winzip I would much rather use the "Self- extracting capability for 7z format" of 7zip. Bandwidth is a finite resource and I am not convinced that using some crappy old compression technology is the answer. And people who are unaware of the existence of any compression format beyond zip out there will still click on an executable. > -- William Oh well, Michael "kids, get off my lawn" Abshoff --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
