Re: [RCSE] Zoom Time

[Harley Michaelis]

Thanks, Dave. . .that's good stuff! Interesting that 107 fps equates to
72.95 MPH.

Crude Rule of thumb: 2/3 FPS = MPH  When I could run a 100 yard dash in 10
seconds (30 ft/sec), the coach said that was 20 MPH.
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 10:09 PM
Subject: [RCSE] Zoom Time


> < [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Hey guys, you have provided a great deal of  learned opinions about launch
> and zoom technique, how to determine altitude,  etc., but no one answered
the
> simple question:
>
> "How many seconds from  release to leveling out?">>
>
> Originally posted to RCSE on  10/17/04.
>
> >From Flight Data Recorder: says it was about 4.5 sec (+/-  0.5 sec
depending
> on the wind, launch quality, etc.). It's about 1/3 of the  total launch
time.
> This was not a full-size winch but the 1/3 factor is probably  reasonably
> scalable. Time was measured from the max velocity at  the 'dip' to max
> altitude/typical cruising speed. I timed a number of  3M ship, full bore
launches at TNT
> (including a few Icons). Total launch  time is about the same probably due
to
> faster tow speed with more powerful winch  system.
>
> Average of 9 launches.
> Time on  tow:   8.4  sec
> Height on tow:280 ft
> Speed  at release:   107 fps
> Time in  zoom: 4.4 sec
> Height (zoom  only): 107 ft
> Final  speed:   31.5  fps
> Final height:385 ft
> Total launch + zoom time ~ 12.8 sec
>
> - Dave R
>
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Re: [RCSE] Transfers?

[Arne Ansper]

Hi!
Martin Kopplow has developed really nice technique. He prints directly on 
kevlar. Check out his tailfeathers on the link below (you must join the 
SALglider group in Yahoo to see them).

Arne
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:07 +0200
From: martin kopplow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [SALglider] Printing on Kevlar with an inkjet pinter
Ok, I've uploaded two pictures to the SALglider photo section at

Printing on fabric has advantages over printing on tissue when the size of 
the print is relatively large or even covers the whole part. It saves 
weight. It does not add a layer to the layup, forming no stress raisers at 
it's edges. It also makes the building process a bit easier if used 
appropriately. For a small print, such as a logo, I'd go the tissue way, 
though.

First Picture ("Layout, print and result"): You can see a finished vert. 
full flying stab and a printed sheet of Kevlar or glass in front of the 
computer with the original layout on screen.

Second picture ("Bagging printed glass on balsa") You can see my 
vacbagging setup for a set of glassed balsa tailfeathers with cambered 
airfoil. The material under the part is somewhat flexible to allow the 
bagged part to sink in a little.

Procedure: I first make the layout using my computer. This has the artwork 
in it plus all the marks for positioning and trimming. Leave a little 
space around the parts and at the edges of the print area. Then I roll out 
as much Kevlar or glass as needed on my cutting bench, stroke/blow away 
all wrinkles. I spray a sheet of usual 80g/m^2 copy paper (the size my 
printer takes, in my case it is A4) very thin with 3M repositionable photo 
mount and let dry a minute or so. I then put the paper buttered side down 
on the fabric at 45°, stroke it on. I trim the fabric exactly to the size 
of the sheet by either using a roller cutter and steel ruler (glass) or 
the Kevlar scissors.

After preparing as many sheets as required, I go to my printer, put one in 
the paper feeder at a time and print on them in draft/economy mode. This 
ensures there is no excess ink soaking the fabric and blurring the image. 
Image resolution is limited to less than 30dpi or so by the distance 
between threads in the cloth, so there's no use in printing high 
resolution anyway. The first time I tried, I used a strip of tape to 
secure the sheet's LE when feeding into the printer, but that proved to be 
unnecessary, at least with my printer. It is - however - not recommended 
to try this with 90° cloth orientation: Threads (almost) parallel to the 
paper's edges will most probably get lose and tangle up the printer 
tractor. Cut the fabric somewhat smaller when 90° is required, so there's 
plain paper at the edges.

After printing, it is a good idea to let the ink dry a few minutes, then I 
stick tape (non elastic, but sticky) on the fabric all around the edges 
and press on tightly. The tape overlaps at the corners, that's important. 
If I print more than one part on a sheet, I also put a tape in between the 
parts. Now I cut the parts apart (fabric still on the paper) right in the 
middle of the tape.

I prepare my bagging rig, resin and tools, and only now I peel off the 
paper. Grab the paper with one hand, the tape with the other and slowly 
pull apart. Because of every cloth part being framed by the tape, it will 
not get irreversibly distorted during the process, even if this may look 
like it at first glance. I leave the tape on and put the fabric on the 
bench and blow on them: Just like magic, they will return to their 
original shape, use no fingers, just take a deep breath and blow on top of 
it. Then I wet it with epoxy and roll it dry, with the tape still on. Now 
I put the lower side fabric on a piece of overhead film (print looks 
mirrored now), put the core on top (can see exactly where, because of the 
printed reference marks) with the tape still on and place a piece of 
wetted out carbon roving around the edges of the core (thin one at TE). 
Now I put the top skin cut on another overhead film, put it on the core, 
adjust referring to the printed marks, put a sheet of prepared plastic 
film over everything, seal around the edges with acrylic and switch on the 
vac rig at max. It's getting noisy now in the shop, so I rather get into 
the kitchen and have a beer.

After cured, I trim off excess fabric and the tape, sand the edges and so 
on. The result is in photo #1.

Now I'm looking for a large format printer, that will feed Kevlar right 
off the roll :-) or at least allow printing the size of a wing panel. I 
could make nice wing paintjobs that way, or I could even print on the 
outmost layer of my Kevlar fuselages. I could take a digital photo and 
pri

Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[Martin Usher]

>
> >Studying the NRA as a "political model" is not a bad idea<
>

I think the AOPA might be a better model. They appear to have an effective
legislative program in place to protect general aviation from the excesses
of government. Their interests overlap our interests so maybe the AMA should
try to work with them, bulk up a bit so they don't look like a small bunch
of oddball hobbyists that like to play with bits of wood and tissue paper.

Martin Usher

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[RCSE] Zoom Time

[RegDave]

<>

Originally posted to RCSE on  10/17/04.

>From Flight Data Recorder: says it was about 4.5 sec (+/-  0.5 sec depending 
on the wind, launch quality, etc.). It's about 1/3 of the  total launch time. 
This was not a full-size winch but the 1/3 factor is probably  reasonably 
scalable. Time was measured from the max velocity at  the 'dip' to max 
altitude/typical cruising speed. I timed a number of  3M ship, full bore launches at 
TNT 
(including a few Icons). Total launch  time is about the same probably due to 
faster tow speed with more powerful winch  system.

Average of 9 launches.
Time on  tow:   8.4  sec
Height on tow:280 ft
Speed  at release:   107 fps
Time in  zoom: 4.4 sec
Height (zoom  only): 107 ft
Final  speed:   31.5  fps
Final height:385 ft
Total launch + zoom time ~ 12.8 sec

- Dave R
 
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Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[Denoferth]

>Studying the NRA as a "political model" is not a bad idea<

And why not? I love to hear the NRA bashers rant on about the effect we have 
on the government, our government. I and thousands like me ARE the NRA. Just 
private citizens who happen to believe that freedom IS protected by the private 
ownership of firearms. It ain't about duck hunting, Mr. Kerry! We who know 
something about firearms must always fight against those who act out of 
ignorance of and prejudice toward firearms. We do this by calling and writing our 
representatives about issues that effect us. Isn't that precisely what citizens 
are expected to do in a representative government? Who could perceive this as 
somehow bad? I was taught in civics class many years ago that that was what 
representative government was all about. Our elected officials can't represent us 
if they don't know where we stand on issues up for a vote. It really does not 
matter whether it is a phony "semiautomatic assault rifle" issue or depriving 
us of model airplane flying areas, it is up to each of us to be informed about 
the issues and inform our representatives how we expect them to vote for us. 
The real power in our system is in the voting out of office those who can't 
bring themselves to represent our views. It certainly worked with Gore. We 
expect elected politicians to represent us, not "vote their conscience" once in 
office when they feel safe. You may hate the NRA for your own reasons but the 
example is still worth studying. Dennis in NH
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[RCSE] Simple zoom question. . .no answers given

[Harley Michaelis]

Hey guys, you have provided a great deal of learned opinions about launch
and zoom technique, how to determine altitude, etc., but no one answered the
simple question:

"How many seconds from release to leveling out?"







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Re: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[Steve Meyer]

There has been quite a bit of analysis on what is the optimal angle on Hand 
Launch gliders for max altitude.  Everything points to 90 degrees as soon 
as possible out of your hand as the optimal for maximum height.

I wonder why that is not the same with 3 meter planes.
I zoom at 60 deg if I need to get some where quick or punch through a 
headwind to some wave lift.  Most the time my zoom is greater than 60 deg, 
closer to 80.

Steve Meyer
LSF IV
SOAR
At 09:40 PM 10/20/2004, Mark Williams wrote:
George,
I have many times used the additional energy from the zoom to gain distance
upwind, thus a shallower than vertical pull up. Which is why, I guess I tend
toward that zoom profile in the range of 45 to 60 degrees. So, your comment
confirms some of my initial deductions on this subject. Sometimes here in
the breezy Midwest even carrying ballast it is difficult to cover enough air
upwind of the desired landing point. It would still seem to me that if the
lift vector is horizontal that equates to lost energy or altitude.
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RE: [RCSE] Number of seconds in the zoom???

[Sheldon - YNT uDesign]

An ALTi2 will give you all the info you need at the fast sampling rate of
0.1 seconds...Along with your altitude of course. Then you'll know both
parameters and can work on improving them.

And...I've just gotten the latest batch of ALTi2's in and they're ready to
ship.

(I know, shameless plug...But what a GREAT stocking stuffer!) 

-Sheldon-
YNT uDesign
US Home of the ALTi2

-Original Message-
From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 9:33 PM
To: Harley Michaelis
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Number of seconds in the zoom???


This is difficult to do yourself.  Stylus stopwatch function only does
whole seconds.

At 02:39 PM 10/20/2004, Harley Michaelis wrote:
>At the recent Northwest Soaring Society Tournament, I was watching launches
>and counting the seconds between release and leveling out. 4 seconds was
>typical and Les Grammer with an Icon Icon was getting 5, but at a
relatively
>shallow angle.
>
>For those of you who feel they zoom well, have you counted seconds in that
>segment of the launch and if so, what amount of time are you actually
>zooming?

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[RCSE] "Paul Siegel Dominates F5J Electric Soaring...Again!"

[GordySoar]

HI guys, 
For those of you who thought Cincinnati soaring wizard Paul Siegel was 
afraid to face my dominance at the Great Pumpkin Fly this past weekend, you are 
only partly wrong!
He was busy defending his WORLD title in Arizona!
Here's the website and a clip of the story.  
For those of you who haven' t had the honor of knowing and flying with both 
Paul and his brother Rudy, you're truly missing out.  They are both 
ambi-soarus.  Flying everything well from foamy combat, Nats Champ DHLG, 
OVSS series dominance, DS and all ranges of electrics.
Read this and applaud!Gordy
 
 
http://www.soarabq.org
 


  
  

  F5J 2004 Electric Soaring 
  World Challenge Over!
  Broadband 
  Version - More Photos
  After three days of often windy weather, courageous 
  flying and skilled performances, the 2004 F5J ESWC successfully completed. 
  Paul Siegel once again has demonstrated his mastery of F5J, winning both 7 
  cell and Unlimited events. 
  However, no round was a freebie, and many pilots were 
  within striking distance of the top three positions in each event. Buzz 
  Averill and Bruce Twining were close in 7 cell, and Bruce also came close 
  in Unlimited, leading before the last round. On Sunday Lenny Keer 
  surpassed first day leaders Fred McClung and Dennis Renner to win Speed 
  400.

[RCSE] The Zoom?

[Mark Williams]

George,

I have many times used the additional energy from the zoom to gain distance
upwind, thus a shallower than vertical pull up. Which is why, I guess I tend
toward that zoom profile in the range of 45 to 60 degrees. So, your comment
confirms some of my initial deductions on this subject. Sometimes here in
the breezy Midwest even carrying ballast it is difficult to cover enough air
upwind of the desired landing point. It would still seem to me that if the
lift vector is horizontal that equates to lost energy or altitude.

Jim,

The two articles from DP and JW were very informative and greatly
appreciated. I have flown with both of these men at the TNT and with JW at
the Last Fling of Summer as well. They both know of what they speak. They
truly do launch high and I do not recall, all though the old gray matter may
be failing, seeing either go vertical after leaving the line. I have gone to
similar set-ups to what they both describe for the towed portion of the
launch. Full span equal camber, a fairly aft tow hook position and an
elevator preset that allows "hands off" towing in almost any wind condition.
But, that applies to the towing portion of the launch, not the zoom or
kinetic energy to altitude conversion portion of the launch. I would really
like to learn how to optimize that portion, since I am satisfied I can
usually get what I want while on the line. Joe's mention of climb out at
around, but greater that 60 degrees begins to touch on what I am interested
in learning about.

Mark W.



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[RCSE] Zoom zoom zoom....the sound of RCSD articles?

[GordySoar]

Hey, you forgot to ask for Gordy's opinion on the 
subject.  :P
 
No need to ask, since I did two seperate articles on 
the subject.
One on Tow Hook location and why, one on Launch 
Camber, available for free download from RCSD.
 
"Hooked Up My Camber and headedUP!"
"There Is No CG with A Tow Hook"
 
I figured instead of guessing at setups and proceedures, 
why not figure it out for real?  Yep I used the Picolario and a few hundred 
test launches around the countryafter reading JW and DP's 
articles.
 
Then after flying a few thousand times this season and 
observing the overall benefit of an 'optimized' launch, I often got a reality 
check like this past weekend in Cincywhere guys got full 500'+ launches and 
yet landed before two guys who had popped off at about 50' or so, and surfed 
carefully two win the round...seldom getting higher than 100'
 
Don't get me wrong, I'll take the full launch everytime 
over a popoff, but those guys knew what to do with the available air, regardless 
of what altitude of that air.
 
SImple rules of thumb for those of you who are looking 
to improve your launches.
Keep it simple, don't get all dramatic with throwing, 
pulsing, diving, and pinging.
Set you full trailing edge at about 3/8".
Don't have your tow hook so far back that your sailplane 
pops vertical out of your hand.  A little forward will keep you from 
stalling over into the ground or popping off.
Develop a consistant pattern for every single launch and 
repeat it.
Don't do the cool oh so sexy, dip and 
pop.
When you get near apex, remove your 
camber.
Stand on the pedal for a 1,001, 1002 count (composites 
or moldies)
Let off the pedal, THEN pull upagain after you let 
off the pedal.
 
What you will get is consistant launches that will allow 
you to transition into the more agressive technique.What you won't get is 
tangled in the winch line, pushed back over your head in windy 
condtions
A loss of 50' to 100' dive to recover 
from.
Far reduced abuse to airframe and linkage and 
servo/battery systems.
 
For those of us who are sub-JW, DP, or BC, it makes sense to let 
those of less experience and skill to transistion thru the learning curve the 
same way you did.IF they learn it the way we did, they'll likely understand 
it and be able to tune it...themselves ='s a lot more fun for them 
:-)
 
or not :-)
Gordy
Soaring Tullahoma tomorrow with Herb, Ben, Chuck 
Anderson and Fly'n Brian, and maybe even Kendal :-)
 
 
 

Re: [RCSE] Number of seconds in the zoom???

[Steve Meyer]

This is difficult to do yourself.  Stylus stopwatch function only does 
whole seconds.

At 02:39 PM 10/20/2004, Harley Michaelis wrote:
At the recent Northwest Soaring Society Tournament, I was watching launches
and counting the seconds between release and leveling out. 4 seconds was
typical and Les Grammer with an Icon Icon was getting 5, but at a relatively
shallow angle.
For those of you who feel they zoom well, have you counted seconds in that
segment of the launch and if so, what amount of time are you actually
zooming?
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FW: [RCSE] Transfers?

[Aradhana Singh Khalsa]

Tape a flat piece of tissue paper (like you use for wrapping a gift) onto
some inkjet cardstock, set the printer driver to adjust for cardstock, and
print normally. The ink doesn't run at all. YMMV depending on your printer
and ink.

The tissue goes onto the mylar first, oriented to face outwards.

See a picture of a layup in this post on RCGroups.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2334949&postcount=8

Aradhana Singh Khalsa



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [RCSE] Transfers?


Does anyone have ideas for transferring art work  out of an ink jet printer
onto mylars for bagging wings, etc.? Seems like this  should be do-able by
some
transfer method but no luck so far. Kind of a pain to  cut out a mask for
spray painting. There must be an easier way.

- Dave R

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Re: Re: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[Steve Meyer]

Weight will help achieve a longer zoom. :-)
At 12:57 PM 10/20/2004, Pat McCleave wrote:
Guys,
Joe and Daryl are great launchers without a doubt but I still think the 
guy that launches the best I have ever seen is Troy Lawicki.  It seems 
like his planes just keep going and going and going like there is an 
Energizer Bunny Inside.  Troy if you are out there maybe you could chime 
in on your technique.  My guess it has a lot to do with practice, practice 
and more practice.

See Ya,
Pat McCleave
Wichita, KS
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[RCSE] Thank you Richard Jones

[Peter Salomon]

I just received a Royal Evo radio that I purchased used from Richard Jones 
through the RSCE.  Richard thank you very much. The radio arrived in 
perfect condition and a day before it was supposed to. Your packaging job 
was the best I have ever seen. better than any professional RC vendor I 
have dealt with. congratulations on your newest family addition. I hope you 
are getting to sleep through the night and are finding some time to fly as 
well.
Aloha Pete Salomon

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RE: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[targetdrone]

Hey, you forgot to ask for Gordy's opinion on the subject.  :P

I have seen many, many guys dive too deep and catch the line on on their
stabs.  DOH!
I have never done that.  I tend to tension the line a bit more just
before dipping the nose quickly and pinging off at a medium-steep angle.

Wiggle your sticks
David Judson


-Original Message-
From: George Voss 
Subject: [RCSE] The Zoom?

Joe and Daryl, please chime in on this discussion, as you two are the
experts in this field.  gv


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Re: [RCSE] Transfers?

[brian]

I've used a similar technique to the one linked below,
except you can actually put the graphic directly on the
mylar instead of closest to the core on the layup.
Simply wet out the spot on the mylar that the illustration
is going to be and place it on the mylar.  Then proceed
with your layup as normal.
Here's a link to one of my results on a SGII wing:
http://www.nonsilence.com/soaring/pics/sg2logoonwing.jpg
Jon Stone wrote:
here's one fellow's article on the topic.
http://www.rc-soar.com/tech/graphics.htm
- Original Message -
 > Does anyone have ideas for transferring art work  out of an ink jet
printer
 > onto mylars for bagging wings, etc.? Seems like this  should be 
do-able by
some
 > transfer method but no luck so far. Kind of a pain to  cut out a mask 
for
 > spray painting. There must be an easier way.

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Re: [RCSE] Transfers?

[Jon Stone]

Title: Re: [RCSE] Transfers?






here's one fellow's article on the topic.


http://www.rc-soar.com/tech/graphics.htm



- Original Message - 

> Does anyone have ideas for transferring art work  out of an ink jet

printer

> onto mylars for bagging wings, etc.? Seems like this  should be do-able by

some

> transfer method but no luck so far. Kind of a pain to  cut out a mask for

> spray painting. There must be an easier way.

[RCSE] Transfers?

[RegDave]

Does anyone have ideas for transferring art work  out of an ink jet printer 
onto mylars for bagging wings, etc.? Seems like this  should be do-able by some 
transfer method but no luck so far. Kind of a pain to  cut out a mask for 
spray painting. There must be an easier way.

- Dave R  

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[RCSE] Number of seconds in the zoom???

[Harley Michaelis]

At the recent Northwest Soaring Society Tournament, I was watching launches
and counting the seconds between release and leveling out. 4 seconds was
typical and Les Grammer with an Icon Icon was getting 5, but at a relatively
shallow angle.

For those of you who feel they zoom well, have you counted seconds in that
segment of the launch and if so, what amount of time are you actually
zooming?


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Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[JIM EALY]

RCSEr's
Ed and Tom are making perfectly good sense and I have no doubt that driving to
your local flying field will be a thing of the past in ten years.  Look how
long it took AMA and how much work it was to get the extra freqs. I've been
flying RC since 1957 part-time and in ten years I planned on flying RC full
time. But I really suspect that a few retirement villages with a structured
field - not near a potential threat and the AMA site at Muncie will be all that
is left - if we give the GOV advanced notice and they remember to put it on the
day/duty officer's sheet.
  *
Grass roots ARE needed - but the AMA needs to have started protecting our
"rights/priviledge" five years ago - or at least right after 9 11.
**
Insurance, Model Aviation, Dues are NOT important compared to our
"right/priviledge" to fly where and when we would like.
 
Just IMHO
Jim
AMA Life Member #43

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:27:51 +, "Ed Jett" wrote:

> Thomas is correct.  We need to be more organized and direct to the lawmakers 
> about any issue that has the potential to affect our hobby.  Unfortunately, 
> that is the truth about politics.  Now that the military is getting into RC 
> in a big way, we can expect a lot of pressure in the future.  If we are not 
> diligent, we will have a tough time.
> 
> Now, that said,our hobby (i.e., we as members) and our "Academy" needs to do 
> more to protect our rights as modelers and flyers than we currently do. 
> Studying the NRA as a "political model" is not a bad idea.  In fact, 
> studying the organization as a whole would be enlightening.  For instance, 
> take a look at their membership cost and the benefits that clubs and members 
> get for their membership money.  What about the fact that the organization 
> itself acts as a watchdog on legislative issues and will organize grass 
> roots opposition when appropriate.  Compare that to our AMA.
> 
> I personally believe we need to fiercely preserve all of the freedoms we 
> have.
> 
> How many modelers and flyers are out there freelancing (i.e, not AMA 
> members)?  A LOT more than there are members.  There is room to grow the 
> organization and the membership needs a more active organization.
> 
> We certainly could use a "Charlton Heston", but we don't need a "Smith and 
> Wesson"; we need a "Bill Ruger".
> 
> Just my opinions.  You are free to disagree.
> EJ
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Thomas Koszuta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
> 
> 
> >We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the 
> > restriction or not.  "They" need to know that anytime they push against a 
> > model flyer we will all push back.  Why do you think that it is legal to 
> > buy assault rifles again?  Because NRA does not let any restriction go 
> > unprotested.  It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil.
> >
> >Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman 
> > like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have 
> > any problems again.
> >
> > Tom Koszuta
> > Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers
> > Buffalo, NY
> 
> 
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and
"unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that
subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME
turned off.
> 
> 

Jim Ealy
Education by Demonstration
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RE: [RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

[Rick Meredith]

What kind of permit do you need to fly at Laguna Niguel? I used to fly there
a lot but it's been a while. I just moved a few miles away and have been
thinking about getting back into flying.  




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-Original Message-
From: Jeff Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

> From Tustin? Let us assume -moving- traffic for the moment. LOL! Less 
> than 25 minutes down the CA 55 freeway to the I405 freeway north.

You don't need to go all the way north to Brookhurst.

55 south to 405 north.
Exit at Harbor and turn left (south).
Continue south past Baker and Adams.
Turn right on Wilson (west).
Go through 2 more signals, and then there's a stop sign at Canyon.
Turn right on Cayon and it dead ends into parking lot for Fairview part
(school to the right).

You can look this up on http://www.mapquest.com

look for intersection of Canyon Dr and Wilson, in Costa Mesa.

There's also a good slope site with a nice view in Laguna Niguel.
You need a permit to fly there, but not to watch. There's also a hill (Kite
Hill) nearby that you can fly at (no permit required).
Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site. About a 200 foot slope up to a
canyon ridge, then another shallow 40 feet to canyon floor.
This site was featured in a couple of the endless lift videos.

Directions, 55 south to the 405 south. Exit on Alicia west/south (right
turn). Continue for about 8 miles. You'll pass Moulton Pkwy, and as
approaching Aliso Creek, you'll see the canyon.
Continue on Alicia past Aliso Creek, up the hill, then turn right on
Highlands. Take the 3rd driveway to the right, which is the entrance to
HillCrest Estates, a gated community, but just the the guard you're there to
go to the park and the guard will let you in. Continue about 1/4 (north) and
you'll see a small 3 car parking lot to the left. Park there or near there
and then enter the gate to get to the park.
A nice canyon view from there, and good lift when wind comes from the west
which it usually does. This is my favorite slope site in the area, but
probably because it's only 20 minutes from where I live.


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[RCSE] Fwd: QUASOAR 99" OR 123" sailplane.

[DUTCHMANN30]

 
--- Begin Message ---
 
--- Begin Message ---
FOR SALE- Quasoar, standard 99" / unlimted 123" sailplane, stab and rudder built, wings ready to sheet, nothing done to the fiberglass fuselage, every thing else in box, ACE kit.   $145.00 + shipping

  Ron Cate
    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
FOR SALE - Quasoar standard 99" / unlimited 123" sailplane, stab and rudder built, wings ready to sheet, nothing done to the fiberglass fuselage, every thing else in box, ACE RC kit.  $145.00 + shipping.

   Ron Cate
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- End Message ---

RE: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[Howard Mark]

OK - so who are YOU voting for as AMA president?
More of the same - no action - head in the sand?
Think about that. 

Mark



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Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[Ed Jett]

Thomas is correct.  We need to be more organized and direct to the lawmakers 
about any issue that has the potential to affect our hobby.  Unfortunately, 
that is the truth about politics.  Now that the military is getting into RC 
in a big way, we can expect a lot of pressure in the future.  If we are not 
diligent, we will have a tough time.

Now, that said,our hobby (i.e., we as members) and our "Academy" needs to do 
more to protect our rights as modelers and flyers than we currently do. 
Studying the NRA as a "political model" is not a bad idea.  In fact, 
studying the organization as a whole would be enlightening.  For instance, 
take a look at their membership cost and the benefits that clubs and members 
get for their membership money.  What about the fact that the organization 
itself acts as a watchdog on legislative issues and will organize grass 
roots opposition when appropriate.  Compare that to our AMA.

I personally believe we need to fiercely preserve all of the freedoms we 
have.

How many modelers and flyers are out there freelancing (i.e, not AMA 
members)?  A LOT more than there are members.  There is room to grow the 
organization and the membership needs a more active organization.

We certainly could use a "Charlton Heston", but we don't need a "Smith and 
Wesson"; we need a "Bill Ruger".

Just my opinions.  You are free to disagree.
EJ
- Original Message - 
From: "Thomas Koszuta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models


   We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the 
restriction or not.  "They" need to know that anytime they push against a 
model flyer we will all push back.  Why do you think that it is legal to 
buy assault rifles again?  Because NRA does not let any restriction go 
unprotested.  It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil.

   Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman 
like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have 
any problems again.

Tom Koszuta
Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers
Buffalo, NY

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Re: [RCSE] Re: Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site.

[Bill Malvey]

On 10/20/04 10:41 Jeff Reid wrote:

> AMA is covering this site with an umbrella policy in addition
> to the normal AMA member coverage.

  And once again all that means is that the site is covered by the same
insurance any club site can get. It does not mean that the site is an
"official" site, that AMA approved it or anything else.

AMA offers site insurance to ALL chartered clubs to cover the site owner in
addition to the normal insurance coverage offered to members.


~~~
Bill Malvey

 


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Re: Re: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[Pat McCleave]

Guys,

Joe and Daryl are great launchers without a doubt but I still think the guy that 
launches the best I have ever seen is Troy Lawicki.  It seems like his planes just 
keep going and going and going like there is an Energizer Bunny Inside.  Troy if you 
are out there maybe you could chime in on your technique.  My guess it has a lot to do 
with practice, practice and more practice.

See Ya,

Pat McCleave
Wichita, KS



> 
> From: "James V. Bacus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2004/10/20 Wed PM 01:15:19 EDT
> To: "'RCSE'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] The Zoom?
> 
> Daryl:  http://www.nesail.com/articledetail.php?articleID=2
> 
> Joe:  http://www.nesail.com/articledetail.php?articleID=24
> 
> 
> At 11:12 AM 10/20/2004, George Voss wrote:
> >Joe and Daryl, please chime in on this discussion, as you two are the
> >experts in this field.  gv
> 
> Jim
> Downers Grove, IL
> Member of the Chicago SOAR club,  AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV
> ICQ: 6997780   AIM: InventorJim   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
> 
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> 

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[RCSE] Re: Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site.

[Jeff Reid]

AMA is covering this site with an umbrella policy in addition
to the normal AMA member coverage.
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Re: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[James V. Bacus]

Daryl:  http://www.nesail.com/articledetail.php?articleID=2
Joe:  http://www.nesail.com/articledetail.php?articleID=24
At 11:12 AM 10/20/2004, George Voss wrote:
Joe and Daryl, please chime in on this discussion, as you two are the
experts in this field.  gv
Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club,  AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ: 6997780   AIM: InventorJim   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
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RE: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[James V. Bacus]

At 07:40 AM 10/20/2004, Anker Berg-Sonne wrote:
What has been written is good, but not complete.
Mark asked about zoom technique, not about launch technique and you are 
traveling into the latter pretty deeply.


A) Staying on the line too long, sometimes even overshooting the turnaround.
When you stay on the line too far the winch just pulls the plane towards the
ground.
Also, standing on the pedal too much does the same thing.

B) Not applying manual up elevator during the later part of the tow. This
prevents you from applying maximum stretch to the winch line. Of course, you
don't want to break your plane or the winch line.
I have my models setup so they pull hard with out dialing in any elevator 
preset or use on launch.  I have pulled to stretch the line before ping, 
but everything has a yin-yang effect to it so the bad part of this is that 
you will slow the model down by doing this, and it can be a pretty bad 
trade off.  It works with mono better than the 290lb cord we usually use on 
our winches.


C) Not throwing properly, using battery energy to bring the plane up to 
flying speed.
Or throwing the model already rotated...  but I shouldn't take the topic 
away from the zoom.  8-)

Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club,  AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ: 6997780   AIM: InventorJim   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
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[RCSE] The Zoom?

[George Voss]

Mark, my qualifications are in line with yours...I'm none of the below
either.  However I've asked a number of people over the years as to the
typical way to maximize the zoom.  I'm not the best "zoomer" by far, but I
have learned a few things from that "Joe" guy.  He has done some research on
the subject and has come up with a number of reasons for his answers.

The main difference in zooming comes from wind factors.  Joes' research
indicates we stay on the line too long in windy conditions.  Also, gaining
the maximum altitude isn't always the goal.  In windy weather, it's
sometimes more important to get farther up wind than to gain the maximum
altitude.  One other typical problem, which has been mentioned before, is
staying on the line too long.  We want to stay in the bucket long enough to
gain all of the kinetic energy stored in the winch line and no more!

Since you and I live in the windy Midwest, I suspect your angles are
probably close to optimum considering our conditions.  We typically need to
get upwind more than we need the additional altitude.  45' would/may be the
best since you gain altitude and go upwind in the same ratio.  Early on I
used to climb at nearly 90' angles, but a former F3B member suggested a
shallower angle to get farther up wind.  That's worked for me at least at
the fields I fly most.

In calm conditions, I'd speculate max altitude is the goal.  Like that
"Daryl" guy says, he who launches highest wins.  This would indicate closer
to a vertical climb out is best.

Joe and Daryl, please chime in on this discussion, as you two are the
experts in this field.  gv

-Original Message-
From: Mark Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:52 PM
To: RCSE
Subject: [RCSE] The Zoom?

OK, I'm no engineer, aerodynamicist or a physicist but the question I would
like to pose to the collective knowledge concerns the zoom ...

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[RCSE] Zenith F3J- Carbon

[Bill Rakozy]

If you fly a Zenith, I would appreciate your feedback (off line) on this
model.
 
Pastor Bill Rakozy
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 


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Re: [RCSE] Turbine engine for your saiplane . . .

[Martin Usher]

> . . powering your TX and RX. (Paul Emerson)

Neat, but I think we should spend more effort on finding ways to reduce
energy usage rather than ways of getting more energy to use in the first
place. I like sailplanes because they fly using ambient energy -- the whole
goal of their design is to find ways to make them as efficient as possible.
Current radio systems use very small amounts of power but its conceivable
that if there was the need or the incentive then their power use could be
reduced significantly.

[That's one of the biggest complaints I have about powerline
networking..DSL and cable modems are quite greedy for what they do,
a powerline modem is the same thing scaled up using even more power. The
power companies don't care since they've got a lot of it to sell but all
that power use has got to be sourced and all that energy is going to go
somewhere -- most of it will be heat but a significant amount will be
available at radio frequencies.]

Martin Usher

(The cooking site's worth a look...understandable recepies, almost
revolutionary.)

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Official AMA Flying Sites --> WAS Re: [RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

[Bill Malvey]

On 10/20/04 7:26 Chuck Anderson wrote:
> Not quite 100%.  Muncie is an official AMA site.  I seem to remember an
> attempt to create another AMA site on the west coast that was shot down by
> environmental nuts.

Ooh, SO close Chuck. But while the AMA owns the Muncie site, it is not
"official" in the sense that most people use it.

Again, AMA does not sanction, approve, condone, charter, or otherwise bless
a flying site. The AMA site in Muncie has no further "official" status than
any other flying site of an AMA club anywhere.
 
~~~
Bill Malvey

 


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Re: [RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

[Chuck Anderson]

At 08:44 AM 10/20/2004, you wrote:
> Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site.
Just to be 100% accurate, there is no such thing as an "Official AMA"
~~~
Not quite 100%.  Muncie is an official AMA site.  I seem to remember an 
attempt to create another AMA site on the west coast that was shot down by 
environmental nuts.

Chuck Anderson 

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[RCSE] Zoom - Limiting Values

[RegDave]

The best you're going to get after the release  from the tow line is a 
ballistic trajectory. That is, under the best conditions,  the amount of kinetic 
energy you have at release ((velocity at release)^2) will  be converted to 
potential energy (altitude) minus the final kinetic energy  ((velocity at cruise)^2) 
you need to fly straight and level (the  pushover).

Anything else takes away from the maximum achievable height -  the primary 
detracting factor is drag.

You'll always have profile and  parasitic drag. What you can reduce is 
induced drag - the price of lift. So  reducing the amount of lift required by the 
wing is an important consideration -  up to a point. That means flying the plane 
at a low Cl. But flying it pretty  much straight up to get the max altitude.

>From DLG launch simulations, Cl  is so low above about a 60 degree slope that 
it isn't much of a factor for  induced drag anymore. And profile drag is 
pretty much at the bottom of the  bucket over a modest range of low Cl values as 
well.

So the physics  argues that a quick release from the line at max velocity 
followed by a steep  climb with a pushover with enough velocity to keep from 
stalling is likely the  most efficient profile.

That said, it takes a helluva lot of practice and  discipline to do that 
consistently every time. And the initial phases of the  launch are equally 
important to maximize both the release altitude and  velocity.

After 30 years of trying I still don't know how to consistently  do most of 
this right. Theory and application tend to diverge a bit once you get  to the 
field.

- Dave R  

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[RCSE] Ava

[Brian Smith]

Just talked to Barry Kennedy and he now has Avas in stock, with more
coming...Several folks ask me lately and thought I would just pass this
along...Brian Smith


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Re: [RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

[Bill Malvey]

> Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site.

Just to be 100% accurate, there is no such thing as an "Official AMA"
anything site. AMA charters clubs and sanctions contests, but does not have
any involvement at all with flying site approvals, etc. AMA does publish
some general guidelines on how to set a field or flying site up, but that is
the total extent of what it does relative to flying sites.

But, both site (Harbor and the Laguna Niguel slope are good places.


~~~
Bill Malvey
AMA Leader Member 4172
AMA District X Associate Vice President
 


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RE: [RCSE] The Zoom?

[Anker Berg-Sonne]

Mark,

What has been written is good, but not complete.

To execute a good zoom, you have to understand how it works.

As you launch, you want to maximize the energy stored in three "reservoirs":
Kinetic energy (speed), Potential energy (height), and energy stored in the
winch line (elastic storage). The proper place to zoom is when the sum of
the three reservoirs reaches their maximum. This is obviously hard to gauge,
and varies, depending on the plane, the winch line, the winch, the battery,
the wind, temperature, your throw, tow hook position, winch pedal operation,
elevator and camber trim, manually held elevator, your ability to track
straight up, etc., etc., etc.. Many of these are variable and change the
ideal zoom point. The most common mistakes are:

A) Staying on the line too long, sometimes even overshooting the turnaround.
When you stay on the line too far the winch just pulls the plane towards the
ground.
B) Not applying manual up elevator during the later part of the tow. This
prevents you from applying maximum stretch to the winch line. Of course, you
don't want to break your plane or the winch line.
C) Not throwing properly, using battery energy to bring the plane up to
flying speed.

Assuming you have reached the optimum zoom point, you want to convert two of
the reservoirs: kinetic and elastic storage, into potential energy (height).
You do this by pointing the nose and letting the winch line convert its
elastic energy into kinetic energy. As soon as all the energy has been
transferred, you need to come off the line and point the nose straight up to
most efficiently convert kinetic into potential energy. The most common
mistakes are:

A) Zooming much too deeply. The drag bleeds off your kinetic energy. The
stretch is only about 10 to 20 feet on a typical launch, and most flyers
zoom 50 feet or more.
B) Zooming down and up at too shallow angles. Too much energy is lost to
drag.

As you can see, there is a lot to the tow and the zoom, more enough for the
article I will write this winter. Because of the many variables you have to
figure out exactly what is optimal for your configuration, but an
understanding of what is going on it vital.

Good luck/Anker


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Re: [RCSE] Winch line tension

[Eddie Smith]

At 01:18 AM 10/16/04, you wrote:
I am looking for a way to slow down the winch when winding the line
back up at the end of flying.  Regis
On my winches I have a resistor control on my M50 winch it has three 
speeds.
The three speeds are achieved by using three solenoids, two have a dropping 
resistor
of differing values in series with them and one is wired direct to the motor.

This gives the three speeds.  The full power can be turned off with a switch.
I normally rewind the winch at the end of the day on the lowest power, you 
can stop
the winch on this power by holding the line as it winds in.

This system has a couple of advantages over the foot pulsing system that seems
the norm in the States, it allows lighter models to be launched and you 
never have to
worry about the solenoids sticking on.   I have been using the same 
solenoids in this winch
since the World championships in 1984 in Australia and their still going 
strong.

My latest winch has only two speeds which is better for launching the 
modern moulded
models.

If you would like any more info drop me an email.
Eddie the Eagle
in sunny South Australia 

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Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models

[Thomas Koszuta]

   We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the 
restriction or not.  "They" need to know that anytime they push against a 
model flyer we will all push back.  Why do you think that it is legal to buy 
assault rifles again?  Because NRA does not let any restriction go 
unprotested.  It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil.

   Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman 
like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have 
any problems again.

Tom Koszuta
Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers
Buffalo, NY

BTW, I feel that ANY restrictions because of terrorist acts that infringe on 
Americans rights in America are gross knee jerk reactions that do nothing 
besided make it look like the government is doing something.  When we lose 
rights, terrorists win.  We should see all restrictions for what they are - 
restrictions in the Land of the Free.
 

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[RCSE] Re: Flying Sites near Tustin

[Jeff Reid]

From Tustin? Let us assume -moving- traffic for the moment. LOL! Less than 25
minutes down the CA 55 freeway to the I405 freeway north.
You don't need to go all the way north to Brookhurst.
55 south to 405 north.
Exit at Harbor and turn left (south).
Continue south past Baker and Adams.
Turn right on Wilson (west).
Go through 2 more signals, and then there's a stop sign at Canyon.
Turn right on Cayon and it dead ends into parking lot for Fairview
part (school to the right).
You can look this up on http://www.mapquest.com
look for intersection of Canyon Dr and Wilson, in Costa Mesa.
There's also a good slope site with a nice view in Laguna Niguel.
You need a permit to fly there, but not to watch. There's also
a hill (Kite Hill) nearby that you can fly at (no permit required).
Laguna Niguel is an official AMA slope site. About a 200 foot slope
up to a canyon ridge, then another shallow 40 feet to canyon floor.
This site was featured in a couple of the endless lift videos.
Directions, 55 south to the 405 south. Exit on Alicia west/south
(right turn). Continue for about 8 miles. You'll pass Moulton
Pkwy, and as approaching Aliso Creek, you'll see the canyon.
Continue on Alicia past Aliso Creek, up the hill, then turn
right on Highlands. Take the 3rd driveway to the right, which
is the entrance to HillCrest Estates, a gated community, but
just the the guard you're there to go to the park and the guard
will let you in. Continue about 1/4 (north) and you'll see
a small 3 car parking lot to the left. Park there or near
there and then enter the gate to get to the park.
A nice canyon view from there, and good lift when wind comes
from the west which it usually does. This is my favorite
slope site in the area, but probably because it's only 20
minutes from where I live.
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