Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Bearcat M . Şándor]

Thanks Fons. I'd love a b-format to play with as i learn :")


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:26:07PM -0700, Bearcat M. Şándor wrote:
>
> > Slightly OT, but from these examples, could you tell me where the "first
> > recording is a fragment of Boulez' Anthemes (solo violin and
> electronics),
> > 8 discrete tracks and artificial reverb mixed down to stereo and to UHJ
> > encoded Ambisonics" can be found? Is it a CD, available as b-format
> tracks?
> > It's my kind of music and i'd love to hear it.
>
> It's a concert recording I made last year. I'll see what can
> be done :-)
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
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>



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 12:26:07PM -0700, Bearcat M. Şándor wrote:

> Slightly OT, but from these examples, could you tell me where the "first
> recording is a fragment of Boulez' Anthemes (solo violin and electronics),
> 8 discrete tracks and artificial reverb mixed down to stereo and to UHJ
> encoded Ambisonics" can be found? Is it a CD, available as b-format tracks?
> It's my kind of music and i'd love to hear it.

It's a concert recording I made last year. I'll see what can
be done :-)

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Thu, Nov 07, 2013 at 11:14:10AM -0800, Eric Benjamin wrote:

> Thank you; that's very informative.  It would seem to me, with my
> simplistic ways of thinking, that this method of detecting UHJ would
> depend on there being a preponderance of data being associated with
> a center image.

There is in the first example, and it surely simplifies things, but
the method doesn't really depend on it. 

Unless the recording really contains sounds from all directions
distributed evenly over the sphere, there will be some pattern
in the cloud of points. And this pattern will be different for
a straight virtual stereo mic and for UHJ. As long as some 
reasonable assumptions can be made about the distribution of
the sources, it should be possible to identify the encoding.

> Indeed, being able to see a group or cloud of data in the graph
> depends on one direction being dominant.

One or more, but not all. For example a mainly horizontal distribution
(quite a common case) should still work.

> But in practice it works.  Does this explain why the second instance,
> using the Midas Studios string quartet recording, has a different
> phase offset?

That's still puzzling me a bit. Even the straight stereo decode
shows some dependence of the phase on direction, which for a 
strictly coincident mic should not be the case. Do you remember
the details of the Midas microphone (I'm not even sure they were
ever revealed) ?

Anyway, these results are just a first attempt, there must be many
ways to improve on them. I don't have much time ATM to research
this further, but I will try some other recordings.

Ciao,

-- 
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A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Bearcat M . Şándor]

Fons,

Slightly OT, but from these examples, could you tell me where the "first
recording is a fragment of Boulez' Anthemes (solo violin and electronics),
8 discrete tracks and artificial reverb mixed down to stereo and to UHJ
encoded Ambisonics" can be found? Is it a CD, available as b-format tracks?
 It's my kind of music and i'd love to hear it.

Thanks


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Eric Benjamin  wrote:

> Fons,
>
> Thank you; that's very informative.  It would seem to me, with my
> simplistic ways of thinking, that this method of detecting UHJ would depend
> on there being a preponderance of data being associated with a center
> image.  Indeed, being able to see a group or cloud of data in the graph
> depends on one direction being dominant.  But in practice it works.  Does
> this explain why the second instance, using the Midas Studios string
> quartet recording, has a different phase offset?
>
> I did something similar but using a completely different and cruder tool
> set to analyze the Enya recordings from the albums "Enya" and "Watermark"
> and couldn't see any signs of UHJ encoding.  I had to select, by ear, the
> times in the recording where there was a strong center image.
>
> Eric
>
>
> 
>  From: Fons Adriaensen 
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 12:32:33AM +, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Anderson wrote:
> >
> > > I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by
> using
> > > a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be
> the case
> >
> > It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more
> complicated.
>
> Having a spare moment I decided to just try something simple. Results here:
>
> <http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/ambisonics/uhjtest/index.html>
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eric Benjamin]

Fons,

Thank you; that's very informative.  It would seem to me, with my simplistic 
ways of thinking, that this method of detecting UHJ would depend on there being 
a preponderance of data being associated with a center image.  Indeed, being 
able to see a group or cloud of data in the graph depends on one direction 
being dominant.  But in practice it works.  Does this explain why the second 
instance, using the Midas Studios string quartet recording, has a different 
phase offset?

I did something similar but using a completely different and cruder tool set to 
analyze the Enya recordings from the albums "Enya" and "Watermark" and couldn't 
see any signs of UHJ encoding.  I had to select, by ear, the times in the 
recording where there was a strong center image.

Eric



 From: Fons Adriaensen 
To: sursound@music.vt.edu 
Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?
 

On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 12:32:33AM +, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Anderson wrote:
> 
> > I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by using
> > a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be the case
> 
> It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more 
> complicated.

Having a spare moment I decided to just try something simple. Results here:

<http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/ambisonics/uhjtest/index.html>

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Hugh Pyle]

That's really nice.   It would be very interesting to see the bins
color-coded by frequency, too.


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 12:32:33AM +, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Anderson wrote:
> >
> > > I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by
> using
> > > a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be
> the case
> >
> > It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more
> complicated.
>
> Having a spare moment I decided to just try something simple. Results here:
>
> 
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
> It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
> and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 12:32:33AM +, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Anderson wrote:
> 
> > I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by using
> > a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be the case
> 
> It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more 
> complicated.

Having a spare moment I decided to just try something simple. Results here:



Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2013-11-05, Eero Aro wrote:


The previous posters already said it all.


Actually, not all of it. Evenif I drafted a way to find it all, I 
*anything* but sure it would work out in the end.


I can only add that it is almost impossible to find out from an 
acoustic Soundfield or other microphone setup recording, whether it is 
UHJ or not.


Eero, using modern digital processing, I'm pretty sure it's not. On the 
contrary, I'm pretty sure it could be regularly be found out. And in 
excess of that, over the longer term, it ought to be possible to find 
out which precise variant of BHJ they used to begin with. Because there 
are at least three.


It is sometimes possible to see from a goniometer if a multitrack 
recording from mono microphones has been encoded into UHJ.


Yes. But then you'd be working the short term. If you did you discering 
in the longer terms, and in a statistically principled fashion, would 
you even then say say the same thing? I don't actually think you would, 
speaking as a mathematically/statistical-recognition/supervised-learning 
kinda guy.


Or actually - you can see the difference between a "normal" panned 
stereo and UHJ, as the directions of individual panned sources can be 
detected from "normal" stereo.


They can, in each encoding, separately. But how precisely do they show 
up? Especially after most of them encodings prove old analog ones? 
Coming from old analogue tapes? Seriously, even if you selfevidently 
*can* detect and decde the stuff, blindly, what you need is some time 
and some rather heady DSP. Something quite beyond the normal LTI-stuff, 
even.


They look like sharp(ish) direct lines, but UHJ doesn't have such 
components anywhere else than on the edges of the two speaker stereo, 
ie. at -45 and +45 degrees. In all directions there are phase 
differences between the two channels.


The simplest, most robust thingy I know of on the detection side would 
be a full multiband Hilbert transform, which then goes bandwise 
(timewise and always lapped; you can actually do that in wavelet 
transforms too) to get both the imaginary and the real part of the 
signal out at the same time, even in a frequency separated fashion. 
Phase and all, and especially then easily calculating out the relative 
phase angles between multiple channels, both in and out.


By the way, did I not already tell you this? I might need some help in 
deriving an arbitrary second or third order decoder, which is good 
enough fr "any use". This time it's not even just theretical, but the 
real deal. Or as they say, "I suddenly cease to be a fuckker, and went 
primetime."


There that kind of detection might just be asked of me, robustly, for 
L/R vs. M/S-Dolby processed kind of thing. So, tell me more.


And if I now were to deliver, decoding wise, I'd have to do with 
something pretty novel, since ya'll just never, even before answered my 
questions about this sort of a decoder. "The fully general, yet not 
perhaps fully optimized one." ;)


Right now I'm rather terrified, at having to direct and/or actually do 
the coding work for something like this. Something like an arbitrary, at 
least second order decoder. So if you can help, please help as best you 
can.

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

Aha, I did the same.

I own both the albums on CD - the Celts is the BBC original version and 
Watermark is almost certainly the US version as I was living in the US 
at the time. I am sure I would have noticed an Ambisonic logo in either 
case.


Locating the CDs now will be easier said than done as they are somewhere 
in boxes


-R

On 05/11/2013 21:33, Eero Aro wrote:

Did some googling for Enya vinyl and CD covers. There's plenty of
photos of the covers, but not necessarily of the inner sleeves or disc
faces.

No observations of Ambisonic logos. 



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Steven Dive]

I have original CD’s of both Watermark and The Celts and cannot see any 
ambisonic symbols on either, CD’s or sleeve notes, sadly. I wonder as well 
whether there was more than one version of one or both albums.

On 5 Nov 2013, at 20:35, Bearcat M. Şándor  wrote:

> To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
> disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.
> 
> In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
> of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
> couldn't afford them).
> 
> After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
> on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
> I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
> preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
> ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
> gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
> before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.
> 
> So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.
> 
> When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
> remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
> be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?
> 
> Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
> stream had UHJ in it or not?
> 
> Bearcat
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Richard G Elen wrote:
> 
>> Excellent, good to know.
>> -_R
>> 
>> 
>> On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:
>> 
>>> May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release,
>>> but
>>> it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.
>>> 
>>> http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> Voice: 872.CAT.SOUL (872.228.7685)
> Fax: 406.235.7070
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Did some googling for Enya vinyl and CD covers. There's plenty of
photos of the covers, but not necessarily of the inner sleeves or disc
faces.

No observations of Ambisonic logos.

The only round logo that I found was the Geffen Records logo
on a Orinoco Flow CD:
http://991.com/Buy/ProductInformation.aspx?StockNumber=40889

Eero

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Hm. Interesting.

Many recordings that are known to be UHJ encoded, son't have any printed
indication or an Ambisonic logo at all.

Then again, it has been a common practise that the same release of some
recording has had a different cover print in different countries.

Maybe the Enya really would need some further investigation.

Eero

Bearcat M. Şándor wrote:

To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.

In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
couldn't afford them).

After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.

So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.

When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?

Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
stream had UHJ in it or not?

Bearcat

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Bearcat M . Şándor]

To get back to the Enya question, i remember this too. In fact it was that
disc that got me interested in Ambisonics in the first place.

In around 2000, i traveled to washington from montana to listen to a pair
of Meridian DSP6000s.  I'd wanted to hear some for years (knowing i
couldn't afford them).

After listening to my music for a while, the sales person put an Enya disc
on. It was either Enya (The Celts) or Watermark i wish i remembered which.
I noticed that a symbol on the cd was the same as a symbol on the meridian
preamp we were listening to. I asked about it and he turned on the
ambisonics processing in the pre-amp. I was blown away. The surround was so
gentle and the antithesis of what had turned me off from surround sound
before, even though he only had a 5.1 set up.

So, it's out there, i just don't know which one it is.

When it comes to Ambisonics, might some editions of the disc (original,
remastered etc) have it and some not? Put another way could the Ambisonics
be mixed or mastered out of a particular edition?

Also, could an indicator be added to Fons processor to indicate whether a
stream had UHJ in it or not?

Bearcat


On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Richard G Elen wrote:

> Excellent, good to know.
> -_R
>
>
> On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:
>
>> May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release,
>> but
>> it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.
>>
>> http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl
>>
>
>
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>



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

Excellent, good to know.
-_R

On 05/11/2013 18:57, J. Liles wrote:

May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release, but
it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.

http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl



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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[J. Liles]

May not be entirely relevant, being that it is a rather recent release, but
it may interest some of you to know that my album is UHJ encoded.

http://jonliles.bandcamp.com/album/sad-pretty-girl

In case anyone starving for some new music in Ambisonics...
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[alan . varty]

Hello,

Another recording (CD) you may be interested in is "Real Life" by Simple Minds.

When played through a UHJ decoder and reasonable speakers it sounds absolutely 
stunning.

Some time before the album was released there was an item in the BBC TV science 
program "Tomorrows World" about the new (at that time) two speaker surround 
systems, Roland Space Sound and possibly Q Sound and there was mention in the 
program that the band Simple Minds were considering using some kind of surround 
sound on their next album (at that time).

There is no mention of any kind of surround equipment being used in the sleeve 
notes but of course this may have been intentional as a sort of blind test to 
see if there were any comments made about the production, good or bad.

Regards,
Alan



-Original Message-
From: Richard G Elen 
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Sent: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 11:24
Subject: Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?


On 05/11/2013 00:03, Mark Anderson wrote: 
> That is what lead me to contact you in '95 to get your 
> input on the rumor of Tina Turner-Break Every Rule being UHJ encoded. 
 
Of course that story was an odd one... the vocals were UHJ encoded but nothing 
else! 
 
==R 
 
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard G Elen]

On 05/11/2013 00:03, Mark Anderson wrote:

That is what lead me to contact you in '95 to get your
input on the rumor of Tina Turner-Break Every Rule being UHJ encoded.


Of course that story was an odd one... the vocals were UHJ encoded but 
nothing else!


==R

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

Going back to Richard's original question, I have a theory
why some recordings appeared into our "Rumours" list.

I found several record titles for example from British automobile
magazines. They had articles about the Troy decoder.

I wonder if the people giving the demo to the journalist had played
both UHJ recordings as properly decoded, and some stereo
recordings, that created a nice spread of sound in the Stereo
Enhance (or Super Stereo, if you like the expression (I don't,
there's nothing Super in it)) mode of the decoder.

At that time there was only a handful of UHJ recordings available,
in addition to classical Nimbus.

It is my guess that for example the soundtrack of Mad Max, Beyond
Thunderdome was mentioned in an article because of this. After long
and tedious listening sessions (somebody's got to do it) I never found
anything UHJ in the mix.

If a journalist heard those recordings in the demo, he may have
assumed that they were surround.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

HI All

The previous posters already said it all.

I can only add that it is almost impossible to find out from an acoustic
Soundfield or other microphone setup recording, whether it is UHJ or not.

I don't know about higher developed ways of finding this out, but from a
sound engineer's point of wiew here's my 5 cents worth:

It is sometimes possible to see from a goniometer if a multitrack
recording from mono microphones has been encoded into UHJ. Or actually -
you can see the difference between a "normal" panned stereo and UHJ,
as the directions of individual panned sources can be detected from
"normal" stereo. They look like sharp(ish) direct lines, but UHJ doesn't
have such components anywhere else than on the edges of the two speaker
stereo, ie. at -45 and +45 degrees. In all directions there are phase 
differences

between the two channels.

The easiest direction is possibly at "North", 0 degrees, as a mono sound in
center front appears with a phase difference in UHJ. Unless there is an
effect or reverb in the vocalist's voice, which again produces phase 
differences.


- - -

There is one recording, in which I tried to find out which is binaural 
and which UHJ:

World Record, WWCD002, that is listed in the Discography.

Some of the tracks are Holophonics and some are UHJ. The CD cover doesn't
say which is which. I really couldn't tell the difference by looking at 
the goniometer.

The only way I could guess was listening. The Holophonic tracks appear to
localize outside the head, UHJ of course doesn't.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2013-11-05, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding 
by using a scope to display phase differences, but have found that 
not to be the case


It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more 
complicated.


This has also been talked about before.

Calculate a series of FFTs on overlapping windows, over the entire 
lenght of the recording, and look for components that have equal 
magnitude in L and R.


On my part, I'd rather do a continuous (perhaps FFT-enabled, perhaps 
frequency segregated) wideband Hilbert transform, and in way or another 
try to bin+aggregate the phase relationships between the two carrier 
channels, so as to build up an histogram of where the phase 
relationships landed over time. I believe, over time, that would be the 
easiest and most adaptable way of gathering the basic data, to then be 
subjected to some prima facie Bayesian reasoning and/or algorithms 
derived from machine learning from-sample.


I suspect support vector machines derived from 
Vapnik-Cervonekis-complexity-limited low order Chebyshev-polynomials 
might be useful in the latter, too: their inverse problem is the most 
well behaved I know with regard to all kinds of noise and nonlinearity, 
in these kinds of problems, and at the same time, if you can somehow 
marry them to an efficient preprocessing and prebinning stage, maybe you 
could even do realtime, adaptive recognition of the original analog 
encoding.


But obviously, since I've never actually coded anything like this out or 
seen the intermediate statistics, this must remain just a hint to 
someone more willing than me to "actually talk the talk".


If they were panned to center using a normal stereo pan pot they 
should be exactly in phase.


That, and the fact that in analogue material you can't really rely upon 
the stuff even staying within the same encoding regime, is why I above 
mentioned time spans. And why I believe this sort of blind decoding, if 
tried, should be able to do mixed decoding and/or seamless transitions 
from the start. Because, once you put in even a statistically optimal 
recognizer, it'll be just half sure, half of the time, and will be 
telling you lots of unexpected things in the middle of that 
half-and-half.


Thus, the worst problem might not be to detect what you want or do not 
want to see at all, and then just decode what is there. The real problem 
might be to deal with continually and variously detecting something in 
between, and how to decode that, then, without sounding hideous/silly 
pretty much all of the time.


If the signal is UHJ encoded AMB there will be a phase difference of 
around 35 degrees.


In fact, under some rather mundane assumptions, at least two channel UHJ 
can even be automatically and reliably detected to the level of 
resolving L from R. The same isn't true for e.g. Dolby MR, where the 
left-right difference doesn't exist at a level deeper than simple 180 
degree phase reversal.


If you find that consistently on all center front panned components 
that would be strong evidence of UHJ encoding.


So, exactly that. At the same time, the accumulation over the Scheiber 
sphere of phase-amplitude points, combined with a couple of rather 
minimalistic a priories on what sound fields ought to look like in real 
life, ought to be able to statistically differentiate between pretty 
much all of the extant, untagged, analogue systems. MP/SQ/QS/UHJ/RM, all 
that typical stuff I at least know about, and with a couple of tricks 
over time, probably even the various extant versions of each of those 
systems. In fact, using algorithms derived from the audio encoding lit 
of the past ten years or so of mobile phone codec algorithms, you should 
even be able to efficiently (i.e. in real time) compensate for static 
delay differences between the channels, slowly varying same, quite a lot 
of backround noise, and even certain kinds of speaker-microphone-like 
rapidly varying angular distortion. In some regards even Doppler, even 
if it's particularly nasty, as a non-shift-invariant phenomenon.


So, exactly that, and even more.

Looking at the complete signal it's probably impossible to decide if 
any phase difference is significant or not, you need the 'logic 
decoding' first.


The way I see it myself, as an amateur (and perhaps soon freelance 
professional) audio DSP guy, as well as an amateur economist, is that 
you shouldn't look at the instantaneous phase differentials as such. 
Instead, you should recognize that there is a whole spectrum of 
different timespans between none at all and hours, relevant to the 
solution, all of them interworking the whole time.


Granted, I might be making this a bit more difficult from the start than 
it has to be. But still, think about a typical audio feed from your 
current Western television set. It does have commercial breaks in it, 
no, which might contain totally fucked up audio wrt the audio y

Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Mon, Nov 04, 2013 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Anderson wrote:

> I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by using
> a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be the case

It should be possible to do that, but the process will be a bit more 
complicated.
Calculate a series of FFTs on overlapping windows, over the entire lenght of the
recording, and look for components that have equal magnitude in L and R. If they
were panned to center using a normal stereo pan pot they should be exactly in 
phase.
If the signal is UHJ encoded AMB there will be a phase difference of around 35
degrees. If you find that consistently on all center front panned components 
that
would be strong evidence of UHJ encoding. 

Looking at the complete signal it's probably impossible to decide if any phase
difference is significant or not, you need the 'logic decoding' first.
 
Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Mark Anderson]

Hi Richard, We ran across that article a while back and I have not been able
to confirm that the recording is UHJ. Below is what is listed in the
discography

Recordings thought to be UHJ, but are not
-   A review of the Meridian 565 surround processor in "Home
Theater Technology" mentioned that "Enya - Watermark"
is ambisonic. The review was available at one time on the
internet, as well as Meridians home site.

After an extensive search, I have not been able to confirm
that "Watermark" is UHJ. I think it is safe to say at this
time that the recording is not ambisonic. However, the song
Orinoco Flow does sound better in UHJ than plain 'ol
stereo.

I have often wondered if there was a way to confirm matrix encoding by using
a scope to display phase differences, but have found that not to be the case
so I have had to resort to finding an associate involved in the recording
for confirmation. That is what lead me to contact you in '95 to get your
input on the rumor of Tina Turner-Break ever rule being UHJ encoded.

Surround Discography
www.surrounddiscography.com

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Richard
Elen
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 10:07 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

Researching some historical Meridian information today I came across a piece
from Hi-Fi Choice, March 1995, p20 et seq by Malcolm C Steward entitled
"Welcome to Digital Wonderland" that I had not previously read. 
In a sidebar on Surround Sound Modes on Meridian's 565 Digital Surround
processor, Steward writes: "...The 565's Ambisonic mode deals with
recordings encoded in UHJ format... This includes... Enya's Watermark CD..."

I don't think I have ever previously heard a claim that this CD is or
contains a UHJ mix. I do theoretically have the CD around somewhere, but
while I rummage in a large number of boxes, has anyone tried decoding it? If
so, what are the results? Has this claim surfaced elsewhere, and what do we
know about its veracity?

--Richard E
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[Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Richard Elen]

Researching some historical Meridian information today I came across a 
piece from Hi-Fi Choice, March 1995, p20 et seq by Malcolm C Steward 
entitled "Welcome to Digital Wonderland" that I had not previously read. 
In a sidebar on Surround Sound Modes on Meridian's 565 Digital Surround 
processor, Steward writes: "...The 565's Ambisonic mode deals with 
recordings encoded in UHJ format... This includes... Enya's Watermark CD..."


I don't think I have ever previously heard a claim that this CD is or 
contains a UHJ mix. I do theoretically have the CD around somewhere, but 
while I rummage in a large number of boxes, has anyone tried decoding 
it? If so, what are the results? Has this claim surfaced elsewhere, and 
what do we know about its veracity?


--Richard E
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Re: [Sursound] UHJ disc discovery?

[Eero Aro]

I also once heard a suggestion that "Enya" would have been UHJ encoded.
However, I never found out, which album it would have been.
I then read through all released Enya album covers and leaflets without
finding any printed evidence.

Eero
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