Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Chip Mefford]

Michael Redler wrote:
> Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with 
> impunity.
>   
>   We're not their yet.
>   
>   Mike

We're not likely to go there either.

We have the power of TV's "Desperate Housewives,
and The Sopranos" to keep most folks from paying
attention to anything.

We have Fox news to master whatever spin is needed,
we have CNN to neatly encapsulate anything into
a ticker-tape annoucement, while on another channel,
is a fascinating show about Cops in Action, competing
for the viewers attention.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain,

All is well.

Nothing can go wrong.

We don't need gulags, and Assassinations
are so old-school. A simple bit of media
spin can undo any legitimate critic, and keep
most reasonable folks completely out of the
political arena.

Would *YOU* like a team hand picked by Carl
Rove to expend a few hundred thousand to
millions of dollars researching every single
aspect of your life, and the lives of everyone
close to you, looking for something that can
be spun, mis-conveyed, misrepresented to make
your political career die on the vine?
I know I don't. What I take away from that, is
that anyone who does go into arena, already
has an *understanding*. Meaning, none of them
are going to /actually/ take on the power structure.

They make some noise, but it's that same disengenuous
crap, like proscuting DAs who state flatly that
giving a physical spouse-abuser, child abuser, whatever,
a serious tongue lashing and suspended sentence,
will "teach them a lesson."

Like fining corporate polluters, or more to the point,
showing them they have to pay a fee to completely
ignore the laws.

All the while, spending hundreds of millions to
billions over 30 years, to stack the courts with
pro-industry judiciaies.

Time is on /their/ side.

They don't need gulags and assassinations.

They have money.

So, as to "we're not that bad, because we don't
have assassinations and gulags" I say, "So what?".


--

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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[DHAJOGLO]

Jason and or Katie

Perhaps isolationist is not exactaly correct... let me clarify.

On Thursday, May 11, 2006  7:22 PM, Jason & Katie wrote:
>

>if the US is so isolationist, why do we keep getting our nose broken for
>sticking it in other people's business?
>

My view is that our general population has retreated into an egotistical 
nationalism (nothing new really).  And as a result we conviently ignore the 
rest of the world.  We've writen off the UN, we want to build walls around 
ourselves to keep others out and we don't really pay attention to the rest of 
the world unless resources are on the line.

Its correct that we are sticking out noses here and there.  I posit that 1% is 
making the decisions and 99% wants to close the border and turn off the light 
so the neighbors think we're gone.  Isolationist may not be exact but big walls 
and ignoring treaties and international authorities is very close wouldn't you 
say.

>and then there is the fact that in no way can we stop or contain something
>we cannot even adequately define, because there is a good chance it was
>designed to be undefinable, i mean, think about it- there was a logbook
>style title for the bird flu almost before it was "discovered" (H5N1). tell
>me that wasnt a little bit fast? while it may or may not be part of some
>huge nasty corporate black book conspiracy that you can never believe until
>it has been officially denied, it just doesnt look good for the large
>factory farms. the problem is, they will blame the little guys for raising
>tainted birds until they are regulated out of existence, and then the fact
>that factory farming is the biggest cause of the bird flu will just all of a
>sudden pop up in the mainstream, and the poultry industry will roll over and
>die, taking a big chunk of the present food supply with it.
>
>hoax or no, its still gonna get ugly.

Agreed.  My point is that that 1% above knows this and will never admit that we 
can't handle the uglyness and thus the pundit machine is given carte blanche to 
run away with the conspiracies.

Forgive my spelling as I was typing this from a console with limited spell 
checking features.

-dave
>


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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[DHAJOGLO]

Two Davids, how funny,

I didn't comment about you or anything on Rush.  I mearly responded to Keith's 
comment about the way we politicise issues.  Rush is a deaf, racist, drug using 
moron.  If he happened to say something worth while I'm sure it was on accident.

I'm not to concerned about the actual flu.  I was simply pointing out the 
worthless tripe being spread from the dhs.  If the flu mutates and a pandemic 
hits so be it.  Its nature's way of kicking us around for a change.  I have 
faith that the massive drug companies will come up with a costly way to cure 
the rich, and the rich will figure they need a few of us minions to wipe there 
arses, thus spreading a little cure around here and there.

>David,
>   Please illuminate me. Which statement did I make that is complete
>agreement with Rush? I think you've misread me, by a mile. Rush
>said the bird flu is a hoax? I had no idea that he had the balls to
>take on Rumsfeld, a major beneficiary of this hoax. But if he did
>then I agree with him. Mostly I think Rush is a mouthpiece for
>the Repug propaganda machine & to be avoided.
>Yeah, bugs mutate. So what? Unless you have the perfect match,
>the vaccine is a waste. It is better by far to keep one's immune system
>in perfect working order, all the time. You are letting the Fear Machine
>of our leaders get to you, imo.
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:58 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>
>> You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as
>> about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh
>> and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it
>> is, in black and white.
>>
>> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about
>> conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.
>> Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed
>> from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs
>> being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts to
>> spread.
>>
>> --- David
>>
>>>  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>>> the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>>> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
>>> accept
>>> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
>>> of your airline flights. When
>>> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>>> believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>>> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
>>> for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>>> (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
>>> Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA
>>> and the Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>>> devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>>> powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>>> the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>>> Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>>> Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>>   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>>> to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>>> airlines, and civil libertarians.
>>>
>>> *Three-Day Quarantine*
>>>
>>> Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>>> cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>>> quarantine for as long as three days.
>>>
>>> *Detailed Information*
>>>
>>> The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>>> contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>>> traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
>>> The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>>> provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>>> government asked for it.
>>>
>>> USA Today
>>> <http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-04-24-flu-quarantine_x.htm>
>>> April 25, 2006
>>

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[JJJN]

Hello D,
Hope is all we have now,  but as long as either party is in "charge" and 
The masters of greed are in the background buying them off and ruling 
the country for their ends,don't plan on any change very soon but there 
will be some long TALK TALK TALK and mudslinging and so we go.down 
down down and then ?.

My best,
Jim

D. Mindock wrote:

>Hi Jim,
>   Well, I hope the election in Nov 2006 is relatively honest. I feel uneasy
>about it. Just too many Diebold and ES&S touch-screens will be in use. But, 
>if, the
>Demos manage to get a majority in Congress after Nov 7, I hope they do the
>impeachment of Bush/ Cheney without delay. And then work to unwind
>all the damage BushCo has done to the USA, Iraq, etc..
>Will the Demos, those that are heavily corporate backed, really try to 
>reverse the
>harm done? assuming that the Demos do achieve a majority in both the House
>and Senate. Will they vote for impeachment knowing how much Big 
>Biz/Oil/Drugs
>loves Bush and Cheney? I wonder. Perhaps, even if the Demos win in Nov 
>things
>might not change as much as we Progressives would like. But we can hope, 
>huh?
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>
>  
>
>>Hello D.,
>>I like what you said and I would like to interject my thoughts on this
>>below,
>>
>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi Zeke,
>>>  I must say that I agree with all you've said. After I sent out my
>>>"irresponsible" message, I felt like I may have misread you. And
>>>I did, so I am glad that I did & sorry too if I bugged you. I
>>>should have known better. Argh!
>>>  Yeah, we need the Democrats and moderate, i.e. true, Republicans
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>I feel that as long as the party system is alive and well we will
>>continue to have this kind of leadership, we need a way to elect
>>responsible leaders that is not driven by hype, money and retoric, Sorry
>>but I don't have the wisdom to offer up what vehicle that may be.
>>
>>
>>
>>>too that are sick of BushCo's lavish spending, etc., to both
>>>work together to tame the monster that's demolishing the
>>>USA from the WH. Bush and Cheney are not Republicans but
>>>are radicals with a scary agenda. Bush/Cheney are not even
>>>Americans but corporate creatures with corporate values which means
>>>no morals, no sense of helping the citizenry improve their lives.  They
>>>just want to do, and are doing, anything they can to increase corporate
>>>power
>>>and wealth. It is a house of cards they're building.
>>> You're correct in that there is a large number of people who'd like
>>>to be rid of Bush and Cheney.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Not enough though, and when we implode the fall will be great.
>>
>>
>>
>>>This is largely untapped source
>>>that can help usher out the two idiots in the WH via impeachment.
>>>  Does anyone know why the Democrats are remaining largely silent
>>>at this crucial time?
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Why bother, You will see Americans elect record numbers of Democrats in
>>the elections this fall they don't need to do anything. If they do
>>the fickle public may turn on them so why not ride the tide.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Are they afraid of attacks from the Bush propaganda
>>>machine? Is the TV media afraid of letting uppity Democrats, like 
>>>Feinstein,
>>>on
>>>their pundit shows?
>>>  Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Well anyway luck
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>I was referring to the Democratic party leadership -- stuff like going
>>>>along with Bush on anything, kicking Paul Hackett out of the Ohio
>>>>senate race, running people like Ken Salazar for senate in Colorado,
>>>>not getting their members organized behind people like Feinstein to
>>>>really oppose the Bush agenda, apoligizing for Colberts comments,
>>>>etc.  There are individual ones who I have alot of respect for --
>>>>some of the ones you mentioned, even Dean before he took over the
>>>>Democratic party.  There are even individual Republicans who I have
>>>>liked (t

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,     I read your post and I have to say; if I set aside the stuff we already talked about, the stuff with which I already disagreed (providing an extensive explanation as to why), and the stuff of which most people are already aware, I find myself in full support of you comments.     Thank you!     MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Mike,You mentioned Gulags and if I am not wrong, US have something very similar or worse in Gutanamo. It is also now clear that people got kidnapped by US and sent to secret jails or other nations for "questioning". The principle and use are roughly the same as the Gulags.Yes, the democrats are not using "Stalinist" methods, but Bush is doing his best. You
 are right, the democrats are not there yet, it is the republicans. I assume that they are using the tax dollars for it also. Stalin hijacked the communist idea and built an apparatus to spy and control the citizens. Stalin's USSR had little to do with Lenin's communist ideas.Today we know that there were links between Lenin and the financial powers in Europe and US. Lenin in his French exile was financially supported and it was "corporate" powers who worked on a "regime change" and "democracy" in Russia. Stalin was probably a "dark horse" in this and an uneducated leader, who was unsuitable to lead Russia into the "industrial revolution". He was a product of a backlash and an unwanted surprise.The pattern for Lenin, follows the pattern that later brought AH to power in Germany. He also built Gulags/Gutanamos to control the people. AH clearly had "corporate support" and western ideas.This were the big
 historical dictators, helped and supported by corporations. Then we have numerous small examples in Europe, Far East, Africa and South America and the current backlash against them. History take 100 years to write and it not until now, that we start to get perspective on what happened in the period before the Russian revolution and WWI.HakanAt 00:12 13/05/2006, you wrote:>Someone asked:>>"i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as>Stalinist? would that be a fitting label?"If I understood the >question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about using the label >"Stalinist" on Democrats. Of course, I could be mistaken. In any >event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the conversation.>>You wrote: "...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further.">>I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are
 >referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. >If true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation.>>Mike>>Hakan Falk wrote:>>>>Mike,>>>>Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than>>Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further.>>Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In>>Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military>>if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it.>>>>Hakan>>>>>>>>At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote:>>>>>>>>Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate>>>with impunity.>>>>>>We're not their
 yet.>>>>>>Mike>>>>>>Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>>>i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as>>>stalinist? would that be a fitting label?>>>- Original Message ->>>From: "Zeke Yewdall">>>To:>>>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -->>>>morons would be the best description I can think of for them.>>>>>>>>On 5/12/06, Michael Redler
 wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ray,>>>>>>>>>>Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is>>>>>an>>>>>insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,>>>>>I>>>>>doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only>>>>>candidate.>>>>>>>>>>However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.>>>>>They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses>>>>>to>>>>>the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility>>>>>in>&g

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[D. Mindock]

Hi Jim,
   Well, I hope the election in Nov 2006 is relatively honest. I feel uneasy
about it. Just too many Diebold and ES&S touch-screens will be in use. But, 
if, the
Demos manage to get a majority in Congress after Nov 7, I hope they do the
impeachment of Bush/ Cheney without delay. And then work to unwind
all the damage BushCo has done to the USA, Iraq, etc..
Will the Demos, those that are heavily corporate backed, really try to 
reverse the
harm done? assuming that the Demos do achieve a majority in both the House
and Senate. Will they vote for impeachment knowing how much Big 
Biz/Oil/Drugs
loves Bush and Cheney? I wonder. Perhaps, even if the Demos win in Nov 
things
might not change as much as we Progressives would like. But we can hope, 
huh?
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "JJJN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


> Hello D.,
> I like what you said and I would like to interject my thoughts on this
> below,
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>
>>Hi Zeke,
>>   I must say that I agree with all you've said. After I sent out my
>>"irresponsible" message, I felt like I may have misread you. And
>>I did, so I am glad that I did & sorry too if I bugged you. I
>>should have known better. Argh!
>>   Yeah, we need the Democrats and moderate, i.e. true, Republicans
>>
>>
> I feel that as long as the party system is alive and well we will
> continue to have this kind of leadership, we need a way to elect
> responsible leaders that is not driven by hype, money and retoric, Sorry
> but I don't have the wisdom to offer up what vehicle that may be.
>
>>too that are sick of BushCo's lavish spending, etc., to both
>>work together to tame the monster that's demolishing the
>>USA from the WH. Bush and Cheney are not Republicans but
>>are radicals with a scary agenda. Bush/Cheney are not even
>>Americans but corporate creatures with corporate values which means
>>no morals, no sense of helping the citizenry improve their lives.  They
>>just want to do, and are doing, anything they can to increase corporate
>>power
>>and wealth. It is a house of cards they're building.
>>  You're correct in that there is a large number of people who'd like
>>to be rid of Bush and Cheney.
>>
> Not enough though, and when we implode the fall will be great.
>
>> This is largely untapped source
>>that can help usher out the two idiots in the WH via impeachment.
>>   Does anyone know why the Democrats are remaining largely silent
>>at this crucial time?
>>
> Why bother, You will see Americans elect record numbers of Democrats in
> the elections this fall they don't need to do anything. If they do
> the fickle public may turn on them so why not ride the tide.
>
>> Are they afraid of attacks from the Bush propaganda
>>machine? Is the TV media afraid of letting uppity Democrats, like 
>>Feinstein,
>>on
>>their pundit shows?
>>   Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
> Well anyway luck
> Jim
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I was referring to the Democratic party leadership -- stuff like going
>>>along with Bush on anything, kicking Paul Hackett out of the Ohio
>>>senate race, running people like Ken Salazar for senate in Colorado,
>>>not getting their members organized behind people like Feinstein to
>>>really oppose the Bush agenda, apoligizing for Colberts comments,
>>>etc.  There are individual ones who I have alot of respect for --
>>>some of the ones you mentioned, even Dean before he took over the
>>>Democratic party.  There are even individual Republicans who I have
>>>liked (though none come to mind right now).But as a party, the
>>>Democrats most defining characteristic seems to be weak spinedness.
>>>
>>>Perhaps I am wrong that enough people in this country oppose Bush, and
>>>for the democrats to truely stand up and oppose him would cost them
>>>support.  If so, we are really in a bad situation.  But I think that
>>>there are enough people who don't agree with the bush agenda that if
>>>one of the political parties was to actually stand up and fight it
>>>full force, people would actually support them.  It almost seems that
>>>right now, there is more press about the splits within the republicans
>>>and various congressional republicans taking Bush to task for stuff.
>>>Why aren't the Democrats as a whole jumping on this opportunity?  It
>>>seems like they don't even support their member who are will

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Hakan Falk]

Mike,

You mentioned Gulags and if I am not wrong, US have something very 
similar or worse in Gutanamo. It is also now clear that people got 
kidnapped by US and sent to secret jails or other nations for 
"questioning". The principle and use are roughly the same as the Gulags.

Yes, the democrats are not using "Stalinist" methods, but Bush is 
doing his best. You are right, the democrats are not there yet, it is 
the republicans. I assume that they are using the tax dollars for it 
also. Stalin hijacked the communist  idea and built an apparatus to 
spy and control the citizens. Stalin's USSR had little to do with 
Lenin's communist ideas.

Today we know that there were links between Lenin and the financial 
powers in Europe and US. Lenin in his French exile was financially 
supported and it was "corporate" powers who worked on a "regime 
change" and "democracy" in Russia. Stalin was probably a "dark horse" 
in this and an uneducated leader, who was unsuitable to lead Russia 
into the "industrial revolution". He was a product of a backlash and 
an unwanted surprise.

The pattern for Lenin, follows the pattern that later brought AH to 
power in Germany. He also built Gulags/Gutanamos to control the 
people. AH clearly had "corporate support" and western ideas.

This were the big historical dictators, helped and supported by 
corporations. Then we have numerous small examples in Europe, Far 
East, Africa and South America and the current backlash against them. 
History take 100 years to write and it not until now, that we start 
to get perspective on what happened in the period before the Russian 
revolution and WWI.

Hakan

At 00:12 13/05/2006, you wrote:
>Someone asked:
>
>"i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
>Stalinist? would that be a fitting label?"If I understood the 
>question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about using the label 
>"Stalinist" on Democrats. Of course, I could be mistaken. In any 
>event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the conversation.
>
>You wrote: "...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further."
>
>I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are 
>referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. 
>If true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation.
>
>Mike
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>>Mike,
>>
>>Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than
>>Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further.
>>Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In
>>Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military
>>if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>
>>
>>At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate
>>>with impunity.
>>>
>>>We're not their yet.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Jason & Katie <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
>>>stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Zeke Yewdall"
>>>To:
>>>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
>>>>morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>>>>
>>>>On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ray,
>>>>>
>>>>>Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
>>>>>an
>>>>>insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
>>>>>I
>>>>>doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
>>>>>candidate.
>>>>>
>>>>>However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
>>>>>They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
>>>>>to
>>>>>the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
>>>>>in
>>>>>the "mainstream" media.
>>>>>
>>>>>Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>>>>><http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camej

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[JJJN]

Hello D.,
I like what you said and I would like to interject my thoughts on this 
below,

D. Mindock wrote:

>Hi Zeke,
>   I must say that I agree with all you've said. After I sent out my
>"irresponsible" message, I felt like I may have misread you. And
>I did, so I am glad that I did & sorry too if I bugged you. I
>should have known better. Argh!
>   Yeah, we need the Democrats and moderate, i.e. true, Republicans
>  
>
I feel that as long as the party system is alive and well we will 
continue to have this kind of leadership, we need a way to elect 
responsible leaders that is not driven by hype, money and retoric, Sorry 
but I don't have the wisdom to offer up what vehicle that may be.

>too that are sick of BushCo's lavish spending, etc., to both
>work together to tame the monster that's demolishing the
>USA from the WH. Bush and Cheney are not Republicans but
>are radicals with a scary agenda. Bush/Cheney are not even
>Americans but corporate creatures with corporate values which means
>no morals, no sense of helping the citizenry improve their lives.  They
>just want to do, and are doing, anything they can to increase corporate 
>power
>and wealth. It is a house of cards they're building.
>  You're correct in that there is a large number of people who'd like
>to be rid of Bush and Cheney.
>
Not enough though, and when we implode the fall will be great.

> This is largely untapped source
>that can help usher out the two idiots in the WH via impeachment.
>   Does anyone know why the Democrats are remaining largely silent
>at this crucial time?
>
Why bother, You will see Americans elect record numbers of Democrats in 
the elections this fall they don't need to do anything. If they do 
the fickle public may turn on them so why not ride the tide.

> Are they afraid of attacks from the Bush propaganda
>machine? Is the TV media afraid of letting uppity Democrats, like Feinstein, 
>on
>their pundit shows?
>   Peace, D. Mindock
>  
>
Well anyway luck
Jim

>
>  
>
>>I was referring to the Democratic party leadership -- stuff like going
>>along with Bush on anything, kicking Paul Hackett out of the Ohio
>>senate race, running people like Ken Salazar for senate in Colorado,
>>not getting their members organized behind people like Feinstein to
>>really oppose the Bush agenda, apoligizing for Colberts comments,
>>etc.  There are individual ones who I have alot of respect for --
>>some of the ones you mentioned, even Dean before he took over the
>>Democratic party.  There are even individual Republicans who I have
>>liked (though none come to mind right now).But as a party, the
>>Democrats most defining characteristic seems to be weak spinedness.
>>
>>Perhaps I am wrong that enough people in this country oppose Bush, and
>>for the democrats to truely stand up and oppose him would cost them
>>support.  If so, we are really in a bad situation.  But I think that
>>there are enough people who don't agree with the bush agenda that if
>>one of the political parties was to actually stand up and fight it
>>full force, people would actually support them.  It almost seems that
>>right now, there is more press about the splits within the republicans
>>and various congressional republicans taking Bush to task for stuff.
>>Why aren't the Democrats as a whole jumping on this opportunity?  It
>>seems like they don't even support their member who are willing to
>>take him on.
>>
>>
>>On 5/12/06, D. Mindock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Zeke,
>>>  If you are talking about Democrats (note the use of capital D) like
>>>Congresswoman DeGette of
>>>Colorado, Hillary Clinton, Joe Liebermann, and others of this ilk then
>>>I would have to agree. Even Kerry leaves a lot to be desired.
>>>  But if you are referring to Sen. Feinstein of Wisconsin, Congressman
>>>Kucinich of Ohio, the late Paul Wellstone, etc., then I must strongly
>>>disagree.
>>>   The problem is that one label does not fit all. So making a blanket
>>>statement like you've made is irresponsible, imo.
>>>Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
morons would be the best description I can think of for them.

On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


>Ray,
>
>Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, 
>is
>an
>insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist 
>election,
>I
>doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
>candidate.
>
>However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist 
>party.
>They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate 
>responses
>to
>the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual 
>invisibility
>in
>the "mainstream" media.
>
>Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.sh

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[D. Mindock]

Hi Zeke,
   I must say that I agree with all you've said. After I sent out my
"irresponsible" message, I felt like I may have misread you. And
I did, so I am glad that I did & sorry too if I bugged you. I
should have known better. Argh!
   Yeah, we need the Democrats and moderate, i.e. true, Republicans
too that are sick of BushCo's lavish spending, etc., to both
work together to tame the monster that's demolishing the
USA from the WH. Bush and Cheney are not Republicans but
are radicals with a scary agenda. Bush/Cheney are not even
Americans but corporate creatures with corporate values which means
no morals, no sense of helping the citizenry improve their lives.  They
just want to do, and are doing, anything they can to increase corporate 
power
and wealth. It is a house of cards they're building.
  You're correct in that there is a large number of people who'd like
to be rid of Bush and Cheney. This is largely untapped source
that can help usher out the two idiots in the WH via impeachment.
   Does anyone know why the Democrats are remaining largely silent
at this crucial time? Are they afraid of attacks from the Bush propaganda
machine? Is the TV media afraid of letting uppity Democrats, like Feinstein, 
on
their pundit shows?
   Peace, D. Mindock


>I was referring to the Democratic party leadership -- stuff like going
> along with Bush on anything, kicking Paul Hackett out of the Ohio
> senate race, running people like Ken Salazar for senate in Colorado,
> not getting their members organized behind people like Feinstein to
> really oppose the Bush agenda, apoligizing for Colberts comments,
> etc.  There are individual ones who I have alot of respect for --
> some of the ones you mentioned, even Dean before he took over the
> Democratic party.  There are even individual Republicans who I have
> liked (though none come to mind right now).But as a party, the
> Democrats most defining characteristic seems to be weak spinedness.
>
> Perhaps I am wrong that enough people in this country oppose Bush, and
> for the democrats to truely stand up and oppose him would cost them
> support.  If so, we are really in a bad situation.  But I think that
> there are enough people who don't agree with the bush agenda that if
> one of the political parties was to actually stand up and fight it
> full force, people would actually support them.  It almost seems that
> right now, there is more press about the splits within the republicans
> and various congressional republicans taking Bush to task for stuff.
> Why aren't the Democrats as a whole jumping on this opportunity?  It
> seems like they don't even support their member who are willing to
> take him on.
>
>
> On 5/12/06, D. Mindock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Zeke,
>>   If you are talking about Democrats (note the use of capital D) like
>> Congresswoman DeGette of
>> Colorado, Hillary Clinton, Joe Liebermann, and others of this ilk then
>> I would have to agree. Even Kerry leaves a lot to be desired.
>>   But if you are referring to Sen. Feinstein of Wisconsin, Congressman
>> Kucinich of Ohio, the late Paul Wellstone, etc., then I must strongly
>> disagree.
>>The problem is that one label does not fit all. So making a blanket
>> statement like you've made is irresponsible, imo.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> >I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
>> > morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>> >
>> > On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ray,
>> >>
>> >> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, 
>> >> is
>> >> an
>> >> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist 
>> >> election,
>> >> I
>> >> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
>> >> candidate.
>> >>
>> >> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist 
>> >> party.
>> >> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate 
>> >> responses
>> >> to
>> >> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual 
>> >> invisibility
>> >> in
>> >> the "mainstream" media.
>> >>
>> >> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The Democrats aren't a solution
>> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>> >>
>> >> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
>> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the 
>> >> fascists,
>> >> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to 
>> >> jump
>> >> on Shrub's band wagon.
>> >> Ray in Atlanta GA
>> >>
>> >> D. Mindock wrote:
>> >> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>> >> > the info on citizens possible

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Mike Redler]

Oh crap!! You're right.

...my bad.

Mike

Jason & Katie wrote:
> hurm... isnt that what the US gov't is doing already?
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: Michael Redler
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>
> Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with 
> impunity.
>
> We're not their yet.
>
> Mike
>
> Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
> stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Zeke Yewdall"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>
>   
>> I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
>> morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>>
>> On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote:
>> 
>>> Ray,
>>>
>>> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
>>> an
>>> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
>>> I
>>> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
>>> candidate.
>>>
>>> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
>>> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
>>> to
>>> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
>>> in
>>> the "mainstream" media.
>>>
>>> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>>>
>>>
>>> The Democrats aren't a solution
>>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>>>
>>> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
>>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ray in Atlanta GA wrote:
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
>>> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
>>> on Shrub's band wagon.
>>> Ray in Atlanta GA
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>   
>>>> This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>>>> the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>>>> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
>>>> accept
>>>> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
>>>> of
>>>> your airline flights. When
>>>> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>>>> believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>>>> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
>>>> for
>>>> at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>>>> (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
>>>> Congress
>>>> reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
>>>> Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>>>> devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>>>> powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>>>> the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>>>> Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>>>> Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>>>> to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>>>> airlines, and civil libertarians.
>>>>
>>>> *Three-Day Quarantine*
>>>>
>>>> Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>>>> cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>>>> quarantine for as long as three days.
>>>>
>>>> *Detailed Information*
>>>>
>>>> The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>>>> contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>>>> traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
>>>> The
>>>> information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>>>> provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>>>> government asked for it.
>>>>
>>>> USA Today
>>>>
>>>> April 25, 2006
>>>> 
>>> [snip]
>>>   


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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Mike Redler]

Someone asked:
"i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
Stalinist? would that be a fitting label?"
If I understood the question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about
using the label "Stalinist" on Democrats. Of course, I could be
mistaken. In any event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the
conversation.

You wrote: "...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step
further."

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are
referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. If
true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation.

Mike

Hakan Falk wrote:

  Mike,

Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than 
Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. 
Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In 
Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military 
if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it.

Hakan



At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote:
  
  
Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate 
with impunity.

We're not their yet.

Mike

Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
- Original Message -
From: "Zeke Yewdall"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax




  I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
morons would be the best description I can think of for them.

On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote:
  
  
Ray,

Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
an
insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
I
doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
candidate.

However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
to
the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
in
the "mainstream" media.

Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml


The Democrats aren't a solution
http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems

The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml


Mike



Ray in Atlanta GA wrote:

Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
on Shrub's band wagon.
Ray in Atlanta GA

D. Mindock wrote:


  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
the info on citizens possible to be stored in
a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
accept
that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
of
your airline flights. When
they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
for
at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
(D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
Congress
reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
Dick appear to be out-of-control.
Work for Peace, D. Mindock


The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax



Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
airlines, and civil libertarians.

*Three-Day Quarantine*

Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
quarantine for as long as three days.

*Detailed Information*

The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
The
information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
government asked for it.

USA Today

April 25, 2006
  

[snip]

  

  
  


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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Jason & Katie]

hurm... isnt that what the US gov't is doing already?

- Original Message - 
From: Michael Redler
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with 
impunity.

We're not their yet.

Mike

Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall"
To:
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
> morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>
> On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote:
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
>> an
>> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
>> I
>> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
>> candidate.
>>
>> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
>> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
>> to
>> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
>> in
>> the "mainstream" media.
>>
>> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>>
>>
>> The Democrats aren't a solution
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>>
>> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray in Atlanta GA wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
>> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
>> on Shrub's band wagon.
>> Ray in Atlanta GA
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
>> > accept
>> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
>> > of
>> > your airline flights. When
>> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
>> > for
>> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
>> > Congress
>> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
>> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>> >
>> >
>> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
>> >
>> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
>> >
>> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>> > quarantine for as long as three days.
>> >
>> > *Detailed Information*
>> >
>> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
>> > The
>> > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>> > government asked for it.
>> >
>> > USA Today
>> >
>> > April 25, 2006
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing l

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Hakan Falk]

Mike,

Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than 
Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. 
Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In 
Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military 
if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it.

Hakan



At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote:
>Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate 
>with impunity.
>
>We're not their yet.
>
>Mike
>
>Jason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as
>stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
>- Original Message -
>From: "Zeke Yewdall"
>To:
>Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>
> >I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
> > morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
> >
> > On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote:
> >>
> >> Ray,
> >>
> >> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
> >> an
> >> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
> >> I
> >> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
> >> candidate.
> >>
> >> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
> >> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
> >> to
> >> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
> >> in
> >> the "mainstream" media.
> >>
> >> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
> >>
> >>
> >> The Democrats aren't a solution
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
> >>
> >> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ray in Atlanta GA wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
> >> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
> >> on Shrub's band wagon.
> >> Ray in Atlanta GA
> >>
> >> D. Mindock wrote:
> >> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
> >> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> >> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
> >> > accept
> >> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
> >> > of
> >> > your airline flights. When
> >> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
> >> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> >> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
> >> > for
> >> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
> >> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
> >> > Congress
> >> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
> >> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
> >> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
> >> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
> >> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
> >> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> >> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
> >> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
> >> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
> >> >
> >> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
> >> >
> >> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
> >> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
> >> > quarantine for as long as three days.
> >> >
> >> > *Detailed Information*
> >> >
> >> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
> >> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
> >> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
> >> > The
> >> > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
> >> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
> >> > government asked for it.
> >> >
> >> > USA Today
> >> >
> >> > April 25, 2006
> >>
> >> [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Zeke Yewdall]

I was referring to the Democratic party leadership -- stuff like going
along with Bush on anything, kicking Paul Hackett out of the Ohio
senate race, running people like Ken Salazar for senate in Colorado,
not getting their members organized behind people like Feinstein to
really oppose the Bush agenda, apoligizing for Colberts comments,
etc.  There are individual ones who I have alot of respect for --
some of the ones you mentioned, even Dean before he took over the
Democratic party.  There are even individual Republicans who I have
liked (though none come to mind right now).But as a party, the
Democrats most defining characteristic seems to be weak spinedness.

Perhaps I am wrong that enough people in this country oppose Bush, and
for the democrats to truely stand up and oppose him would cost them
support.  If so, we are really in a bad situation.  But I think that
there are enough people who don't agree with the bush agenda that if
one of the political parties was to actually stand up and fight it
full force, people would actually support them.  It almost seems that
right now, there is more press about the splits within the republicans
and various congressional republicans taking Bush to task for stuff.
Why aren't the Democrats as a whole jumping on this opportunity?  It
seems like they don't even support their member who are willing to
take him on.


On 5/12/06, D. Mindock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Zeke,
>   If you are talking about Democrats (note the use of capital D) like
> Congresswoman DeGette of
> Colorado, Hillary Clinton, Joe Liebermann, and others of this ilk then
> I would have to agree. Even Kerry leaves a lot to be desired.
>   But if you are referring to Sen. Feinstein of Wisconsin, Congressman
> Kucinich of Ohio, the late Paul Wellstone, etc., then I must strongly
> disagree.
>The problem is that one label does not fit all. So making a blanket
> statement like you've made is irresponsible, imo.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> >I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
> > morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
> >
> > On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ray,
> >>
> >> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is
> >> an
> >> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,
> >> I
> >> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only
> >> candidate.
> >>
> >> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
> >> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses
> >> to
> >> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility
> >> in
> >> the "mainstream" media.
> >>
> >> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
> >>
> >>
> >> The Democrats aren't a solution
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
> >>
> >> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
> >> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
> >> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
> >> on Shrub's band wagon.
> >> Ray in Atlanta GA
> >>
> >> D. Mindock wrote:
> >> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
> >> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> >> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
> >> > accept
> >> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
> >> > of
> >> > your airline flights. When
> >> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
> >> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> >> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
> >> > for
> >> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
> >> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
> >> > Congress
> >> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
> >> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
> >> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
> >> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
> >> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
> >> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> >> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
> >> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
> >> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
> >> >
> >> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
> >> >
> >> > Sick passengers would be identified by 

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity.We're not their yet.MikeJason & Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label?- Original Message - From: "Zeke Yewdall" To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --> morons would be the best description I can think of for them.>> On 5/12/06, Michael Redler  wrote:>>>> Ray,>>>> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to
 imply that that they are, is >> an>> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, >> I>> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only >> candidate.>>>> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.>> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses >> to>> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility >> in>> the "mainstream" media.>>>> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml>>>>>> The Democrats aren't a solution>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems>>>> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs>>
 http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml>>>>>> Mike>>>>>>>> Ray in Atlanta GA  wrote:>>>> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,>> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump>> on Shrub's band wagon.>> Ray in Atlanta GA>>>> D. Mindock wrote:>> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all>> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in>> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to >> > accept>> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database >> > of>> > your airline flights. When>> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you
 can>> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like>> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained >> > for>> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette>> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our >> > Congress>> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the>> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,>> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate>> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder>> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye>> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.>> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock>> >>> >>> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu
 Hoax>> >>> >>> >>> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order>> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,>> > airlines, and civil libertarians.>> >>> > *Three-Day Quarantine*>> >>> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and>> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in>> > quarantine for as long as three days.>> >>> > *Detailed Information*>> >>> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed>> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any>> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. >> > The>> > information would be stored for at
 least two months, and would be>> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the>> > government asked for it.>> >>> > USA Today>> >>> > April 25, 2006>>>> [snip]>>>> ___>> Biofuel mailing list>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000>> messages):>>

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Jason & Katie]

i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as 
stalinist? would that be a fitting label?
- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
> morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>
> On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is 
>> an
>> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, 
>> I
>> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only 
>> candidate.
>>
>> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
>> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses 
>> to
>> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility 
>> in
>> the "mainstream" media.
>>
>> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>>
>>
>> The Democrats aren't a solution
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>>
>> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
>> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
>> on Shrub's band wagon.
>> Ray in Atlanta GA
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to 
>> > accept
>> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database 
>> > of
>> > your airline flights. When
>> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained 
>> > for
>> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our 
>> > Congress
>> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
>> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>> >
>> >
>> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
>> >
>> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
>> >
>> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>> > quarantine for as long as three days.
>> >
>> > *Detailed Information*
>> >
>> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. 
>> > The
>> > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>> > government asked for it.
>> >
>> > USA Today
>> >
>> > April 25, 2006
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> 

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Hakan Falk]

Zeke,

This is depressing, as I understand it, democrats are "morons" and 
republicans "super scrub" morons. Where are the reasonable, sensible 
and knowledgeable Americans? Statistically it must at least be some 
of them. On this list I think I detected several.

Hakan


At 16:29 12/05/2006, you wrote:
>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
>morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>
>On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Ray,
> >
> > Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an
> > insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I
> > doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate.
> >
> > However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
> > They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate 
> responses to
> > the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual 
> invisibility in
> > the "mainstream" media.
> >
> > Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
> > http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
> >
> >
> > The Democrats aren't a solution
> > http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
> >
> > The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
> > http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
> > excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
> > on Shrub's band wagon.
> > Ray in Atlanta GA
> >
> > D. Mindock wrote:
> > > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
> > > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> > > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get 
> us to accept
> > > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of
> > > your airline flights. When
> > > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
> > > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> > > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for
> > > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
> > > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress
> > > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
> > > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
> > > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
> > > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
> > > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
> > > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> > > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> > >
> > >
> > > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
> > > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
> > > airlines, and civil libertarians.
> > >
> > > *Three-Day Quarantine*
> > >
> > > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
> > > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
> > > quarantine for as long as three days.
> > >
> > > *Detailed Information*
> > >
> > > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
> > > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
> > > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The
> > > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
> > > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
> > > government asked for it.
> > >
> > > USA Today
> > >
> > > April 25, 2006
> >
> > [snip]



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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Joe Street]

Hakan Falk wrote:

Snip
  Where are the reasonable, sensible
> and knowledgeable Americans? Statistically it must at least be some 
> of them. 

I think most of them moved to Canada in the '60s.  LOL

J


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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[D. Mindock]

Zeke,
  If you are talking about Democrats (note the use of capital D) like 
Congresswoman DeGette of
Colorado, Hillary Clinton, Joe Liebermann, and others of this ilk then
I would have to agree. Even Kerry leaves a lot to be desired.
  But if you are referring to Sen. Feinstein of Wisconsin, Congressman
Kucinich of Ohio, the late Paul Wellstone, etc., then I must strongly 
disagree.
   The problem is that one label does not fit all. So making a blanket
statement like you've made is irresponsible, imo.
Peace, D. Mindock


>I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
> morons would be the best description I can think of for them.
>
> On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is 
>> an
>> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, 
>> I
>> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only 
>> candidate.
>>
>> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
>> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses 
>> to
>> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility 
>> in
>> the "mainstream" media.
>>
>> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>>
>>
>> The Democrats aren't a solution
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>>
>> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
>> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
>> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
>> on Shrub's band wagon.
>> Ray in Atlanta GA
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to 
>> > accept
>> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database 
>> > of
>> > your airline flights. When
>> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained 
>> > for
>> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our 
>> > Congress
>> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
>> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>> >
>> >
>> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
>> >
>> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
>> >
>> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>> > quarantine for as long as three days.
>> >
>> > *Detailed Information*
>> >
>> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. 
>> > The
>> > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>> > government asked for it.
>> >
>> > USA Today
>> >
>> > April 25, 2006
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ 

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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Zeke Yewdall]

I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --
morons would be the best description I can think of for them.

On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ray,
>
> Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an
> insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I
> doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate.
>
> However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.
> They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to
> the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in
> the "mainstream" media.
>
> Camejo's campaign gives the right answers
> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml
>
>
> The Democrats aren't a solution
> http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems
>
> The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
> http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists,
> excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump
> on Shrub's band wagon.
> Ray in Atlanta GA
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
> > This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept
> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of
> > your airline flights. When
> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for
> > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress
> > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the
> > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> >
> > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> >
> >
> >
> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
> >
> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
> >
> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
> > quarantine for as long as three days.
> >
> > *Detailed Information*
> >
> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The
> > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
> > government asked for it.
> >
> > USA Today
> >
> > April 25, 2006
>
> [snip]
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Ray,     Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate.     However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the "mainstream" media.     Camejo’s campaign gives the right answers  http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml      The Democrats aren’t a solution  http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems     The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs  http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml        Mike  Ray in Atlanta GA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon.Ray in Atlanta GAD. Mindock wrote:> This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all > the info on citizens
 possible to be stored in> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of > your airline flights. When> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for > at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress > reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the > Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive, > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
 > Dick appear to be out-of-control.> Work for Peace, D. Mindock> > > The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax> > > > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, > airlines, and civil libertarians.> > *Three-Day Quarantine*> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in > quarantine for as long as three days.> > *Detailed Information*> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The > information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
 > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the > government asked for it.> > USA Today > > April 25, 2006     [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Keith Addison]

Hello David

>Keith Addison wrote:
> >> D. Mindock wrote:
> >>
> >> You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as
> >> about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh
> >> and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it
> >> is, in black and white.
> >>
> >> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about
> >> conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.
> >> Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed
> >>
> > >from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs
> >
> >> being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts 
>to spread.
> >>
> >
> > Then what will you propose, that we sit back and figure out how 
>to prevent it?
> >
>
>I haven't proposed anything, and I don't really intend to.

Excepting that other people shouldn't propose anything either, it 
seems, or they'll be sneered at.

> > The days of "risk assessment" and waiting for "sound science" are
> > numbered, the Precautionary Principle is both the future and now, and
> > this isn't it. Neither is the way bird flu is being handled, and that
> > isn't all there is to it, nor is saying that bugs mutate. A bug
> > contemplating a bit of mutation isn't faced with an infinity of
> > possibilities.
> >
> > I'm not flat amazed any more to see Americans explaining things away
> > in terms of political polarisations and somehow mislaying the problem
> > in the doing.
> >
> > One thing you're mislaying David is quite a lot of serious stuff
> > that's been posted here about the why's and wherefore's of the bird
> > flu epidemic. Like this report, for instance:
> >
>
>I've mislayed nothing.  I specifically said I was not addressing where
>it came from or how it might mutate.
>
> > GRAIN, 2006, "The top-down global response to bird flu," Against the
> > grain, April 2006, http://www.grain.org/articles/?id=12
> > The report maintains that the solution being proposed - a complete
> > shift to factory farming - merely brings us back to the source of the
> > current bird flu crisis.
> >
> > GRAIN, 2006, "Fowl play: The poultry industry's central role in the
> > bird flu crisis". February 2006,
> > http://www.grain.org/briefings/?id=194
> >
> > Do you think it's because they've been listening to Rush Limbaugh and
> > the conservative radio gang or to the liberal radio gang, if there is
> > such a thing? Decide which is which, then you can stick a label on it
> > and pretend it's not there.
>
>I didn't accuse D Mindock of spending time listening to talk radio, I
>only expressed my surprise that he would be in agreement with them about
>anything.
>
>
>I thought it amusing that one of our list members has recently brought
>all kinds of conspiracies to our attention.  Among them I count the
>proposal that the US government was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and
>deliberately blew up three buildings, and the car that runs on water in
>violation of the laws of physics.
>
>Now he's telling us that the whole bird flu thing is a hoax, citing an
>article with text like:
>
>"The entire bird flu scare is one of the most blatant hoaxes of recent
>times, and the popular media continues to reinforce the baseless
>story. You've been hearing about it for months and months now, and
>what's come of it?  Next to nothing."
>
>Obviously if nothing has happened in "months and months" nothing is ever
>going to happen.  Of course, if we apply the same kind of logic to
>global warning we're left concluding that there's no need to reduce CO2
>emissions because "next to nothing" has come of it over the last few months.
>
>I think passages like this tell us about people whose brain processes
>have just about stopped, or who are deliberately trying to mislead us:
>
>"Most of the people who have acquired this infection were bird
>handlers who were in continuous contact with these sick birds. Does
>anyone in their right mind envision similar circumstances in the
>**United States**?*"
>
>I occasionally listen to talk radio while driving around to see what
>creative support they have for the neocons in power.  I'd consider it
>funny except that a disturbing number of Americans seem to believe it
>wholesale.  I distinctly recall Limbaugh saying something very like what
>I just quoted.

But you're immune. I distinctly recall saying this, about spin in the US:

"You have to stop the spin. The
trouble is it works so well most people aren't even aware of it, and
if they are they think they're immune."

Quite a few times, judging from all the >'s in its tail. It's a sort 
of reality check when people talk about other people who 
disingenuously redirect the argument and so on. You can try it on me 
if you like.

>Everybody I know who is worried about the bird flu is not worried about
>the current strain of H5N1, they're worried about what happens when it
>mutates into a human transmissable virus.  The passage I quoted ab

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[D. Mindock]

David,
   Please illuminate me. Which statement did I make that is complete
agreement with Rush? I think you've misread me, by a mile. Rush
said the bird flu is a hoax? I had no idea that he had the balls to
take on Rumsfeld, a major beneficiary of this hoax. But if he did
then I agree with him. Mostly I think Rush is a mouthpiece for
the Repug propaganda machine & to be avoided.
Yeah, bugs mutate. So what? Unless you have the perfect match,
the vaccine is a waste. It is better by far to keep one's immune system
in perfect working order, all the time. You are letting the Fear Machine
of our leaders get to you, imo.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


> D. Mindock wrote:
>
> You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as
> about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh
> and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it
> is, in black and white.
>
> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about
> conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.
> Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed
> from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs
> being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts to 
> spread.
>
> --- David
>
>>  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
>> the info on citizens possible to be stored in
>> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
>> accept
>> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
>> of your airline flights. When
>> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
>> believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
>> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
>> for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
>> (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
>> Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA
>> and the Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
>> devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
>> powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
>> the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
>> Dick appear to be out-of-control.
>> Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>>   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>>
>>
>>
>> Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
>> to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
>> airlines, and civil libertarians.
>>
>> *Three-Day Quarantine*
>>
>> Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
>> cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
>> quarantine for as long as three days.
>>
>> *Detailed Information*
>>
>> The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
>> contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
>> traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
>> The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
>> provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
>> government asked for it.
>>
>> USA Today
>> <http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-04-24-flu-quarantine_x.htm>
>> April 25, 2006
>>
>> 
>>
>> Dr. Mercola's Comment:
>>
>> If this news concerns you, believe me, you're not alone. Many health
>> experts, as well as airline personnel and the American Civil Liberties
>> Union (ACLU), feel the same way about the various provisions of this 
>> plan.
>>
>> The ACLU argues that the plan basically gives the government a free
>> pass to detain whomever it wants to. The airline industry is balking
>> at the $100-million-plus cost of creating and maintaining the huge
>> passenger information database required.
>>
>> Georgina Graham, head of global security for the International Air
>> Transport Association, also pointed out that it's ludicrous to give
>> the job of identifying sick people to flight crews who have no medical
>> training.
>>
>> It's starting to look like there's a hidden agenda behind the
>> manufactured

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Ray in Atlanta GA]

Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, 
excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump 
on Shrub's band wagon.
Ray in Atlanta GA

D. Mindock wrote:
>  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all 
> the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept
> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of 
> your airline flights. When
> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can 
> believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for 
> at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette 
> (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress 
> reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the 
> Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive, 
> devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate 
> powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder 
> the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye 
> Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
>   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> 
>  
> 
> Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order 
> to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, 
> airlines, and civil libertarians.
> 
> *Three-Day Quarantine*
> 
> Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and 
> cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in 
> quarantine for as long as three days.
> 
> *Detailed Information*
> 
> The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed 
> contact information from their passengers, including the names of any 
> traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The 
> information would be stored for at least two months, and would be 
> provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the 
> government asked for it.
> 
> USA Today 
>  
> April 25, 2006
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Mercola's Comment:
> 
> If this news concerns you, believe me, you're not alone. Many health 
> experts, as well as airline personnel and the American Civil Liberties 
> Union (ACLU), feel the same way about the various provisions of this plan.
> 
> The ACLU argues that the plan basically gives the government a free pass 
> to detain whomever it wants to. The airline industry is balking at the 
> $100-million-plus cost of creating and maintaining the huge passenger 
> information database required.
> 
> Georgina Graham, head of global security for the International Air 
> Transport Association, also pointed out that it's ludicrous to give the 
> job of identifying sick people to flight crews who have no medical 
> training.
> 
> It's starting to look like there's a hidden agenda behind the 
> manufactured avian flu scare 
>  
> that goes far beyond pushing needless and potentially harmful drugs that 
> don't work anyway 
> . I guess if 
> you can't frighten people with a flu epidemic that never happened 
> ,
>  
> you can limit the rights of travelers and collect private information 
> anyway for the sake of nothing.
> 
> *Sad but true.*
> 
> *The entire bird flu scare is one of the most blatant hoaxes of recent 
> times, and the popular media continues to reinforce the baseless story. 
> You've been hearing about it for months and months now, and what's come 
> of it?  Next to nothing.  *
> 
> *And nothing ever will, except possibly you losing more of your 
> hard-earned freedoms.*
> 
> *We have been warned that anywhere from 200,000 (at best!) to 2 million 
> people at worst will die 
>  
> from the bird flu. The bird flu epidemic hoax reminds me just how 
> uncommon "common sense" is. Folks, where is the sound basic science here? *
> 
> *How do they make the giant leap of faith that the very few deaths so 
> far worldwide will translate to 2 million or even 200,000 deaths from a 
> virus that does NOT readily spread from birds to humans, or humans to 
> humans?*
> 
> *Most of the people who have acquired this infection were bird handlers 
> who were in continuous contact with these sick birds. Does anyone in 
> their right mind envision similar circumstances in the **United States**?*
> 
> *Research like this would typically be thrown in the trash if it did not 
> strongly support some ulterior purpose.*
> 
> *What might the purpo

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Jason & Katie]

if the US is so isolationist, why do we keep getting our nose broken for 
sticking it in other people's business?

and then there is the fact that in no way can we stop or contain something 
we cannot even adequately define, because there is a good chance it was 
designed to be undefinable, i mean, think about it- there was a logbook 
style title for the bird flu almost before it was "discovered" (H5N1). tell 
me that wasnt a little bit fast? while it may or may not be part of some 
huge nasty corporate black book conspiracy that you can never believe until 
it has been officially denied, it just doesnt look good for the large 
factory farms. the problem is, they will blame the little guys for raising 
tainted birds until they are regulated out of existence, and then the fact 
that factory farming is the biggest cause of the bird flu will just all of a 
sudden pop up in the mainstream, and the poultry industry will roll over and 
die, taking a big chunk of the present food supply with it.

hoax or no, its still gonna get ugly.

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax


> Keith,
>
>>
>>I'm not flat amazed any more to see Americans explaining things away
>>in terms of political polarisations and somehow mislaying the problem
>>in the doing.
>>
>>One thing you're mislaying David is quite a lot of serious stuff
>>that's been posted here about the why's and wherefore's of the bird
>>flu epidemic.
>
> I think the lack of reaction or the poor reaction lies in our (the USA) 
> lack of education (all of those kids left behind!) and our isolationist 
> views.  Firstly, the SARS ordeal made people think that either 1) 
> quarantine works just fine or 2) things like pandemics are not really that 
> bad.  Both of which are of course not true.  I hear things like, "Its 
> China's problem, not ours."  And then there's this notion that we are the 
> US, we can handle anything.  Most people in the US don't realize that 
> regular influenza kills around 36,000 people a year 
> (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm).  Plus, even if H5N1 was the same 
> severity as regular flu we would not have the facilities to handle the 
> sheer volume; no one would.  I'm quite sure the government doesn't want to 
> admit that and so the situation mishandled from the top down.
>
> I was just at a multi-agency volunteer training for my county.  The 
> department of homeland security health advocate got up and told us quite 
> plainly, "if there is a public health crisis don't worry.  You and your 
> families will be taken care of first."  You know, most of the people were 
> actually calmed by that vague and generic assurance.  So, the 
> misinformation is coming from on high probably to hide the truth about our 
> inability to handle any sort of health crisis.  And, since most of our 
> citizens don't even know what a pandemic is or that quarantining airplanes 
> will not stop a true pandemic, the news is littered with false truths and 
> flat out lies (or are those the same thing?) which comprises the breeding 
> grounds of the pundits and politicians
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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>
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>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
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>
>
> -- 
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[DHAJOGLO]

Keith,

>
>I'm not flat amazed any more to see Americans explaining things away
>in terms of political polarisations and somehow mislaying the problem
>in the doing.
>
>One thing you're mislaying David is quite a lot of serious stuff
>that's been posted here about the why's and wherefore's of the bird
>flu epidemic.

I think the lack of reaction or the poor reaction lies in our (the USA) lack of 
education (all of those kids left behind!) and our isolationist views.  
Firstly, the SARS ordeal made people think that either 1) quarantine works just 
fine or 2) things like pandemics are not really that bad.  Both of which are of 
course not true.  I hear things like, "Its China's problem, not ours."  And 
then there's this notion that we are the US, we can handle anything.  Most 
people in the US don't realize that regular influenza kills around 36,000 
people a year (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm).  Plus, even if H5N1 was 
the same severity as regular flu we would not have the facilities to handle the 
sheer volume; no one would.  I'm quite sure the government doesn't want to 
admit that and so the situation mishandled from the top down.

I was just at a multi-agency volunteer training for my county.  The department 
of homeland security health advocate got up and told us quite plainly, "if 
there is a public health crisis don't worry.  You and your families will be 
taken care of first."  You know, most of the people were actually calmed by 
that vague and generic assurance.  So, the misinformation is coming from on 
high probably to hide the truth about our inability to handle any sort of 
health crisis.  And, since most of our citizens don't even know what a pandemic 
is or that quarantining airplanes will not stop a true pandemic, the news is 
littered with false truths and flat out lies (or are those the same thing?) 
which comprises the breeding grounds of the pundits and politicians



___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[David Miller]

Keith Addison wrote:
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>
>> You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as
>> about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh
>> and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it
>> is, in black and white.
>>
>> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about
>> conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.
>> Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed
>> 
> >from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs
>   
>> being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts to spread.
>> 
>
> Then what will you propose, that we sit back and figure out how to prevent it?
>   

I haven't proposed anything, and I don't really intend to.

> The days of "risk assessment" and waiting for "sound science" are 
> numbered, the Precautionary Principle is both the future and now, and 
> this isn't it. Neither is the way bird flu is being handled, and that 
> isn't all there is to it, nor is saying that bugs mutate. A bug 
> contemplating a bit of mutation isn't faced with an infinity of 
> possibilities.
>
> I'm not flat amazed any more to see Americans explaining things away 
> in terms of political polarisations and somehow mislaying the problem 
> in the doing.
>
> One thing you're mislaying David is quite a lot of serious stuff 
> that's been posted here about the why's and wherefore's of the bird 
> flu epidemic. Like this report, for instance:
>   

I've mislayed nothing.  I specifically said I was not addressing where 
it came from or how it might mutate.

> GRAIN, 2006, "The top-down global response to bird flu," Against the 
> grain, April 2006, http://www.grain.org/articles/?id=12
> The report maintains that the solution being proposed - a complete 
> shift to factory farming - merely brings us back to the source of the 
> current bird flu crisis.
>
> GRAIN, 2006, "Fowl play: The poultry industry's central role in the 
> bird flu crisis". February 2006, 
> http://www.grain.org/briefings/?id=194
>
> Do you think it's because they've been listening to Rush Limbaugh and 
> the conservative radio gang or to the liberal radio gang, if there is 
> such a thing? Decide which is which, then you can stick a label on it 
> and pretend it's not there.

I didn't accuse D Mindock of spending time listening to talk radio, I 
only expressed my surprise that he would be in agreement with them about 
anything.


I thought it amusing that one of our list members has recently brought 
all kinds of conspiracies to our attention.  Among them I count the 
proposal that the US government was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and 
deliberately blew up three buildings, and the car that runs on water in 
violation of the laws of physics.

Now he's telling us that the whole bird flu thing is a hoax, citing an 
article with text like:

"The entire bird flu scare is one of the most blatant hoaxes of recent
times, and the popular media continues to reinforce the baseless
story. You've been hearing about it for months and months now, and
what's come of it?  Next to nothing."



Obviously if nothing has happened in "months and months" nothing is ever 
going to happen.  Of course, if we apply the same kind of logic to 
global warning we're left concluding that there's no need to reduce CO2 
emissions because "next to nothing" has come of it over the last few months.

I think passages like this tell us about people whose brain processes 
have just about stopped, or who are deliberately trying to mislead us:

"Most of the people who have acquired this infection were bird
handlers who were in continuous contact with these sick birds. Does
anyone in their right mind envision similar circumstances in the
**United States**?*"


I occasionally listen to talk radio while driving around to see what 
creative support they have for the neocons in power.  I'd consider it 
funny except that a disturbing number of Americans seem to believe it 
wholesale.  I distinctly recall Limbaugh saying something very like what 
I just quoted.

Everybody I know who is worried about the bird flu is not worried about 
the current strain of H5N1, they're worried about what happens when it 
mutates into a human transmissable virus.  The passage I quoted above 
attempts to make people who disagree look stupid because Americans do 
not handle dead, infected, chickens the way those currently contracting 
H5N1 do.  What it attempts to do is disingenuously redirect the argument 
away from the real threat.

For the record, I AM concerned about the effect this virus will have on 
the human race once it mutates into a human transmissable virus.  I 
don't believe there are any easy answers for it, but that a lot of 
preparations should be made for it - or for any other pandemic that 
might strike.  These preparations need to be on a personal, local, and 
national level.

--- David

> Keith
>
>
> 

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Keith Addison]

>D. Mindock wrote:
>
>You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as
>about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh
>and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it
>is, in black and white.
>
>FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about
>conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.
>Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed
>from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs
>being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts to spread.

Then what will you propose, that we sit back and figure out how to prevent it?

The days of "risk assessment" and waiting for "sound science" are 
numbered, the Precautionary Principle is both the future and now, and 
this isn't it. Neither is the way bird flu is being handled, and that 
isn't all there is to it, nor is saying that bugs mutate. A bug 
contemplating a bit of mutation isn't faced with an infinity of 
possibilities.

I'm not flat amazed any more to see Americans explaining things away 
in terms of political polarisations and somehow mislaying the problem 
in the doing.

One thing you're mislaying David is quite a lot of serious stuff 
that's been posted here about the why's and wherefore's of the bird 
flu epidemic. Like this report, for instance:

GRAIN, 2006, "The top-down global response to bird flu," Against the 
grain, April 2006, http://www.grain.org/articles/?id=12
The report maintains that the solution being proposed - a complete 
shift to factory farming - merely brings us back to the source of the 
current bird flu crisis.

GRAIN, 2006, "Fowl play: The poultry industry's central role in the 
bird flu crisis". February 2006, 
http://www.grain.org/briefings/?id=194

Do you think it's because they've been listening to Rush Limbaugh and 
the conservative radio gang or to the liberal radio gang, if there is 
such a thing? Decide which is which, then you can stick a label on it 
and pretend it's not there.

Best

Keith


>--- David
>
> >  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all
> > the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> > a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to
> > accept
> > that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database
> > of your airline flights. When
> > they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can
> > believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> > your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained
> > for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette
> > (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our
> > Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA
> > and the Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive,
> > devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate
> > powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder
> > the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
> > Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> > Work for Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> >
> >   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
> >
> >
> >
> > Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order
> > to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,
> > airlines, and civil libertarians.
> >
> > *Three-Day Quarantine*
> >
> > Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and
> > cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in
> > quarantine for as long as three days.
> >
> > *Detailed Information*
> >
> > The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed
> > contact information from their passengers, including the names of any
> > traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.
> > The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
> > provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the
> > government asked for it.
> >
> > USA Today
> > 
> > April 25, 2006
> >
> > 
> >
> > Dr. Mercola's Comment:
> >
> > If this news concerns you, believe me, you're not alone. Many health
> > experts, as well as airline personnel and the American Civil Liberties
> > Union (ACLU), feel the same way about the various provisions of this plan.
> >
> > The ACLU argues that the plan basically gives the government a free
> > pass to detain whomever it wants to. The airline industry is balking
> > at the $100-million-plus cost of creating and maintaining the huge
> > passenger information database required.
> >
> > Georgina Graham, head of global security for the International Air
> > Transport Association, also pointed out that it's ludicrous to give
> > the job of identifying sick peo

Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[David Miller]

D. Mindock wrote:

You know, I'm just flat amazed to find Mr Mindock, whom I regarded as 
about as liberal as they come, in complete agreement with Rush Limbaugh 
and the rest of the conservative radio gang on anything.  And here it 
is, in black and white.

FWIW, which isn't much, I don't think bugs care at all about 
conspiracies, politics, or big drug companies.  I think bugs mutate.  
Whether bird flu eventually mutates into something that can be passed 
from person to person because of agribusiness, free range birds, or pigs 
being fed infected chickens doesn't really matter once it starts to spread.

--- David

>  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all 
> the info on citizens possible to be stored in
> a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to 
> accept
> that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database 
> of your airline flights. When
> they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can 
> believe it will be much longer than that. Just like
> your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained 
> for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette 
> (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our 
> Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA 
> and the Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive, 
> devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate 
> powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder 
> the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye 
> Dick appear to be out-of-control.
> Work for Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
>   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
>
>  
>
> Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order 
> to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, 
> airlines, and civil libertarians.
>
> *Three-Day Quarantine*
>
> Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and 
> cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in 
> quarantine for as long as three days.
>
> *Detailed Information*
>
> The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed 
> contact information from their passengers, including the names of any 
> traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. 
> The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be 
> provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the 
> government asked for it.
>
> USA Today 
>  
> April 25, 2006
>
> 
>
> Dr. Mercola's Comment:
>
> If this news concerns you, believe me, you're not alone. Many health 
> experts, as well as airline personnel and the American Civil Liberties 
> Union (ACLU), feel the same way about the various provisions of this plan.
>
> The ACLU argues that the plan basically gives the government a free 
> pass to detain whomever it wants to. The airline industry is balking 
> at the $100-million-plus cost of creating and maintaining the huge 
> passenger information database required.
>
> Georgina Graham, head of global security for the International Air 
> Transport Association, also pointed out that it's ludicrous to give 
> the job of identifying sick people to flight crews who have no medical 
> training.
>
> It's starting to look like there's a hidden agenda behind the 
> manufactured avian flu scare 
>  
> that goes far beyond pushing needless and potentially harmful drugs 
> that don't work anyway 
> . I guess 
> if you can't frighten people with a flu epidemic that never happened 
> ,
>  
> you can limit the rights of travelers and collect private information 
> anyway for the sake of nothing.
>
> *Sad but true.*
>
> *The entire bird flu scare is one of the most blatant hoaxes of recent 
> times, and the popular media continues to reinforce the baseless 
> story. You've been hearing about it for months and months now, and 
> what's come of it?  Next to nothing.  *
>
> *And nothing ever will, except possibly you losing more of your 
> hard-earned freedoms.*
>
> *We have been warned that anywhere from 200,000 (at best!) to 2 
> million people at worst will die 
>  
> from the bird flu. The bird flu epidemic hoax reminds me just how 
> uncommon "common sense" is. Folks, where is the sound basic science 
> here? *
>
> *How do they make the giant leap of faith that the very few deaths so 
> far worldwide will translate to 2 million or even 200,000 deaths from 
> a virus that does NOT readily spread from birds to huma

[Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[D. Mindock]

 This seems to be inline with the idea of a police 
state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored 
in
a 
huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept 

that 
anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your 
airline flights. When
they 
say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it 
will be much longer than that. Just like
your 
online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for at least a 
year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette (D-CO). Yes, she 
calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress reps that this BS won't 
fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the 
Pentagon are spying on us.  BushCo is a fear based, secretive, 
devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate 
powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder the world 
is becoming terrified of our 
goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye Dick appear to be 
out-of-control.
Work 
for Peace, D. Mindock
The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
 
A plan to quarantine sick airline and ship 
passengers in order to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health 
experts, airlines, and civil libertarians.

Three-Day 
Quarantine
Sick passengers would be identified by flight 
attendants, pilots and cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be 
detained in quarantine for as long as three days.
Detailed 
Information
The proposed rules would also require airlines to 
collect detailed contact information from their passengers, including the names 
of any traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The 
information would be stored for at least two months, and would be provided to 
the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the government asked for 
it.

USA Today April 25, 
2006




Dr. Mercola's 
Comment:



  
  

  If this news concerns you, believe me, you're not 
  alone. Many health experts, as well as airline personnel and the American 
  Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), feel the same way about the various 
  provisions of this plan.
  The ACLU argues that the plan basically gives 
  the government a free pass to detain whomever it wants to. The airline 
  industry is balking at the $100-million-plus cost of creating and 
  maintaining the huge passenger information database 
  required.
  Georgina Graham, head of global security for the 
  International Air Transport Association, also pointed out that it's 
  ludicrous to give the job of identifying sick people to flight crews who 
  have no medical training. 
  It's starting to look like there's a hidden agenda 
  behind the manufactured avian flu scare that goes far beyond pushing needless and potentially harmful drugs that 
  don't work anyway. I guess if you can't 
  frighten people with a flu epidemic that never happened, you can limit the rights of travelers and collect private 
  information anyway for the sake of nothing.
  Sad but true.
  The entire bird flu scare is one of the most 
  blatant hoaxes of recent times, and the popular media continues to 
  reinforce the baseless story. You've been hearing about it for months and 
  months now, and what's come of it?  Next to 
  nothing.  
  And nothing ever will, except 
  possibly you losing more of your hard-earned freedoms.
  We have been warned that anywhere from 
  200,000 (at best!) to 2 million people 
  at worst will die from the bird flu. 
  The bird flu epidemic hoax reminds me just how uncommon "common 
  sense" is. Folks, where is the sound basic science here? 
  
  How do they make the giant leap of faith that 
  the very few deaths so far worldwide will translate to 2 million or even 
  200,000 deaths from a virus that does NOT readily spread from birds to 
  humans, or humans to humans?
  Most of the people who have acquired this 
  infection were bird handlers who were in continuous contact with these 
  sick birds. Does anyone in their right mind envision similar circumstances 
  in the United 
  States?
  Research like this would typically be thrown 
  in the trash if it did not strongly support some ulterior 
  purpose.
  What might the purpose of these scare tactics 
  be, you ask?
  Kickbacks to drug companies is one 
  reason. Their drugs don't work, but 
  the massive windfall from government contracts to help the 
  United 
  States "prepare" against 
  avian flu has helped their bottom lines nicely, not to mention the profits 
  of their allies in the government.
  And the above article points toward a 
  second, and possibly even more sinister, reason to keep us all 
  afraid.
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