Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
> populated place but no longer has a population.


I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag definition as a 
way of saying the place name does not relate to a settlement or dwelling (but 
it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is living around there, it means this name 
is not for an inhabited place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be 
used where no specific tag has yet been developed.
(e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain peaks, 
wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so we don’t use 
locality for them)

I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main tag might 
be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it depends on the 
actually proposed values.

For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as 
abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values

which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more frequent 
than any “ghost” variations.

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Lionel Giard]

In Belgium (where i map), we generally use this tag for place without
population that have a name ("lieu-dit" in french (look at this wikipedia
article) ), like a crossroads (like
"Carrefour de la Justice" (literally "crossroads of justice")), a field, a
part of a forest or some hills. It is often very old names that are shown
on various topographic map (generally the name is the same than in the
past, as we can see them on maps from 1700 ...) and it is really useful to
locate ourself.

Thus i would not limit to the sub-type that you propose (which are only
considering "abandoned places") because there are a lot of cases where they
were never anybody there (we can sometimes find that the crossroads are
inside a hamlet but the crossoroads itself is not inhabited). Also,
locality=junction isn't related to railway (if you look at example, it is
bridges
 or
crossroads ). So i would use
add sub-type for all those "never inhabited places".

Lionel

Le lun. 15 avr. 2019 à 03:57, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> Currently place=locality is main in the database from imports, and it
> is also used as a way to tag a feature which is not currently rendered
> by most map renders so that the name will show.
>
> Since place=locality was originally defined as "a named place that has
> no population" it's easy to see how this (mis)use came about.
>
> There are certainly places that really should be tagged place=locality.
>
> The wiki mentions places that used to have a population, but are not
> longer inhabited; eg "ghost towns" and railway junctions in the USA.
> This features are often still shown on other maps, and may still have
> a sign that shows the location, but even if they are only know by
> local knowledge they may be useful for orientation.
>
> For example, the locations of old mining camps by the river were still
> used by fire fighters and police to specify locations of incidents in
> my home area in rural California.
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place=locality
>
> What we need is a way to distinguish the correctly-tagged features and
> those that are double-tagging for rendering. I would suggest that a
> subtag such as "locality=*" could be useful.
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/locality#values
>
> This tag is already used 65,000 times, but actually on boundaries; it
> was used for an import in Ireland with the values locality=townland
> and locality=subtownland. (These seem to be incorrect usages, because
> townlands seem to be populated places)
>
> Besides the import, it's been used 26 times with locality=junction
> (which could also be tagged railway=junction
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Djunction)? The other
> values look incorrect; they are all populated places, or backwards
> (locality=place).
>
> So I think the key "locality=*" could be used to specify the type of
> locality. This would allow database users to decide which localities
> to render, out of the 1.3 million
>
> The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
> populated place but no longer has a population.
>
> Ideas for the value?
>
> locality=ghost_town seems too American
>
> locality=formerly_inhabited could work but is rather wordy
>
> locality=abandoned_farm or =abandoned_hamlet might work?
>
> Are there other types of valid localities which cannot be better
> described with a different tag, other than former inhabited places?
>
> -Joseph
>
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Warin]

From the original start of place=locality

/All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger 
areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for 
places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any 
geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a 
name tag to. /


That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had 
population, or places that did not have a population.


But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged 
disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city


I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to use' 
with the others there.

/
/
On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:



The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
populated place but no longer has a population.



I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag 
definition as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a 
settlement or dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is 
living around there, it means this name is not for an inhabited 
place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be used where no 
specific tag has yet been developed.
(e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain peaks, 
wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so we 
don’t use locality for them)


I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main 
tag might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it 
depends on the actually proposed values.


For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values

which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more 
frequent than any “ghost” variations.


Cheers, Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Warin]

As an example of a locality that has never had a population

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/117041320

/The Wheel/ (a car wheel - no tyre) was originally mounted on a tree by 
bushwalkers to mark the hub of the Blue Labyrinth's ridges.


No one has ever lived there. Plenty of people go past, and it still a 
navigational feature.


Fairly certain other localities have their stories to tell too.


n 15/04/19 17:23, Warin wrote:

From the original start of place=locality

/All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger 
areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for 
places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any 
geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a 
name tag to. /


That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had 
population, or places that did not have a population.


But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged 
disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city


I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to 
use' with the others there.

/
/
On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:



The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
populated place but no longer has a population.



I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag 
definition as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a 
settlement or dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is 
living around there, it means this name is not for an inhabited 
place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be used where no 
specific tag has yet been developed.
(e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain 
peaks, wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so 
we don’t use locality for them)


I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main 
tag might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it 
depends on the actually proposed values.


For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values

which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more 
frequent than any “ghost” variations.


Cheers, Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Requiring area=yes with barrier=wall, barrier=hedge and other usually linear features when mapped as an area`1

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:14, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> So in case of option 2,
> - a closed way that was tagged "barrier=hedge" only will be rendered as a 
> line.
> - a closed way tagged as "barrier=hedge" AND "area=yes" will be
> rendered with a green fill for the whole area.


+1


> - a closed way tagged as "tourism=camp_site" and "barrier=hedge" will
> render with a hedge line around the outside, but the campsite color
> fill on the inside.
> - a closed way (mis-)tagged as "landuse=meadow" and "barrier=hedge"
> "AND "area=yes" will render with the green hedge fill for the whole
> area, because this is a tagging mistake.


IMHO these are both tagging mistakes, and the rendering could decide to not 
render it at all (you don’t know whether the hedge or the other tag is wrong). 
This would lead very quickly to fixes of the contradicting or ambiguous 
situations.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

[Tony Shield]

Hi

You seem to be describing a stockyard that is associated with an 
auction. Could these be relevant starters for tags?


Tony

On 15/04/2019 00:23, Warin wrote:
In Australia commercial livestock (sheep, cattle) are sold through 
these livestock markets.


They may be transported for several days to get to the market, rested 
there before sale to recover from their trip.


As such the market can be large with feeding etc.

Once sold they are then transported again, possibly overseas.

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839250-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839176-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

I do not see them as 'shops'... in the typical physical sense.


On 14/04/19 17:51, bkil wrote:

In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
haggling, though.

We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
permanent feature anyway.

What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).

If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
or machinery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:

I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
auction.

For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.

But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.

If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
market).

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Re: [Tagging] Requiring area=yes with barrier=wall, barrier=hedge and other usually linear features when mapped as an area`1

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> the rendering could decide to not render it at all [when a closed way is
double-tagged with 2 features]

Unfortunately this isn’t feasible.  Normally we render a feature like a
fence or hedge in a separate “layer” so that they are on top of certain
features like landuse, and below other features like roads.

We only select the relevant features for each layer: for barriers that’s
just things with the key “barrier”, so that rendering does not take too
long. If we wanted to change the rendering based on the presence of other
features on the same way, we would have to query a long list of features.
This is computationally expensive, which is slow and costly for the servers.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 5:12 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:14, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > So in case of option 2,
> > - a closed way that was tagged "barrier=hedge" only will be rendered as
> a line.
> > - a closed way tagged as "barrier=hedge" AND "area=yes" will be
> > rendered with a green fill for the whole area.
>
>
> +1
>
>
> > - a closed way tagged as "tourism=camp_site" and "barrier=hedge" will
> > render with a hedge line around the outside, but the campsite color
> > fill on the inside.
> > - a closed way (mis-)tagged as "landuse=meadow" and "barrier=hedge"
> > "AND "area=yes" will render with the green hedge fill for the whole
> > area, because this is a tagging mistake.
>
>
> IMHO these are both tagging mistakes, and the rendering could decide to
> not render it at all (you don’t know whether the hedge or the other tag is
> wrong). This would lead very quickly to fixes of the contradicting or
> ambiguous situations.
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shelter_type=rock_shelter

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 14, 2019, 10:28 PM by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 14. Apr 2019, at 14:13, Andrew Harvey <>> andrew.harv...@gmail.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> The Australian community has indicated that amenity=shelter + 
>> shelter_type=rock_shelter is not an appropriate tag in this case since these 
>> are natural features not man made features so shouldn't be under the amenity 
>> key
>>
>
>
> shelter is under the amenity key because it is shelter _for_ humans, it 
> implies minimum dimensions (shelter for mice would have different 
> requirements). It is one way to look on things and it is not the only way of 
> course, you could add natural=overhang or whatever, to distinguish them.
>
I also see no problem with tagging such shelters - at least ones noticed, found 
by humans 
and used by humans as a shelters - under amenity key.

amenity=shelter + shelter_type=rock_shelter seems perfectly fine to me

Adding also natural=rosk_shelter (or similar) in addition would be also 
perfectly fine.
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Re: [Tagging] shelter_type=rock_shelter

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 15. Apr. 2019 um 11:11 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

>
> Adding also natural=rosk_shelter (or similar) in addition would be also
> perfectly fine.
>



natural=rock_shelter would not seem perfectly fine to me, it describes a
function, hence should be amenity or something else, but not "natural".
"natural" should describe the natural feature that provides the shelter.
(fwiw, I would not add any natural=* and just go with "shelter_type=rock
shelter", as long as the natural feature isn't interesting apart from the
shelter property).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Requiring area=yes with barrier=wall, barrier=hedge and other usually linear features when mapped as an area`1

[marc marc]

Le 15.04.19 à 11:04, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :

> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 5:12 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>  > - a closed way tagged as "tourism=camp_site" and "barrier=hedge" will
>  > render with a hedge line around the outside, but the campsite color
>  > fill on the inside.
>  > - a closed way (mis-)tagged as "landuse=meadow" and "barrier=hedge"
>  > "AND "area=yes" will render with the green hedge fill for the whole
>  > area, because this is a tagging mistake.
> 
> IMHO these are both tagging mistakes, and the rendering could decide
> to not render it at all

 > costly for the servers.

in this case, the least worst would be to not render for the barrier and 
only render the 2 elements when they are correctly described (2 objects 
or an object with fenced=*).
Correcting an incorrect tag at rendering time will encourage error 
instead of encouraging correction
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Dave Swarthout]

As a mapper in Alaska, I rely heavily upon the USGS Topographic map layer
to provide names for geographic features. Alaska has many places that
perfectly fit the definition Warin provided from the Wiki:

*All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger areas
of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for places that
have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any geographic feature or
population centre that could be used to attach a name tag to. *

Given Alaska's gold mining history, I encounter such places all the time.
There are countless old settlements, gold mining camps, road building
camps, airstrips, and even Native American villages scattered around our
immense state. Most are indeed abandoned and sometimes I add abandoned=yes
to the tags, especially if there is no longer any sign of habitation
visible on satellite imagery.

An Overpass query returned almost 190,000 nodes along with 417 ways and 46
relations tagged as place=locality, that are located in Alaska.

AlaskaDave

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 3:34 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As an example of a locality that has never had a population
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/117041320
>
> *The Wheel* (a car wheel - no tyre) was originally mounted on a tree by
> bushwalkers to mark the hub of the Blue Labyrinth's ridges.
>
> No one has ever lived there. Plenty of people go past, and it still a
> navigational feature.
>
> Fairly certain other localities have their stories to tell too.
>
>
> n 15/04/19 17:23, Warin wrote:
>
> From the original start of place=locality
>
> *All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger
> areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for
> places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any
> geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a name
> tag to. *
>
> That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had
> population, or places that did not have a population.
>
> But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged
> disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city
>
> I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to use'
> with the others there.
>
>
> On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
> The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
> populated place but no longer has a population.
>
>
>
> I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag definition
> as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a settlement or
> dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is living around there, it
> means this name is not for an inhabited place). A generic tag for a place
> name/ toponym, to be used where no specific tag has yet been developed.
> (e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain peaks,
> wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so we don’t use
> locality for them)
>
> I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main tag
> might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it depends
> on the actually proposed values.
>
> For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
> abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values
>
> which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more
> frequent than any “ghost” variations.
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
>
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>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Christoph Hormann]

place=locality is currently used as a generic tag for anything with a 
name for which no established more precise tag exists.

This kind of contradicts the idea of OSM which would normally suggest to 
invent a new tag then for the type of feature you have.  Subtagging the 
generic tag to make it less generic would kind of take this to a whole 
new level.  You could take this even further and suggest tagging 
everything in OSM something like 'feature=thing' and then 
differentiating only through 'thing=*'.

Long story short - to better differentiate what is currently tagged 
place=locality the way to go is IMO to create more specific top level 
tags (or use existing ones like the mentioned "disused:/abandonded:").

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> There are countless old settlements, gold mining camps, road building
> camps, airstrips, and even Native American villages scattered around our
> immense state. Most are indeed abandoned and sometimes I add abandoned=yes
> to the tags, especially if there is no longer any sign of habitation
> visible on satellite imagery.

Thanks Dave,

What tags do you usually add for a former settlement, or for an
abandoned gold mining or road building camp?

Are you using just place=locality with abandoned=yes, or is the tag
"abandoned" always referring to a more specific feature, like
historic=mine or aeroway=aerodrome?

> An Overpass query returned almost 190,000 nodes along with 417 ways and 46
> relations tagged as place=locality, that are located in Alaska.

There are 750k people in Alaska, so there's more than one locality for
every 4 people!

Clearly most of these were imported, probably from GNIS(?).

In your experience, how many of the imported locality nodes seem to be
correctly tagged?

Could many of them be something more specific, like natural=valley,
natural=ridge, natural=peak, natural=bay, railway=junction,
highway=junction, place=island, etc?

Joseph

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Camp_site=camp_pitch

[Tobias Wrede]

Hi,

I follow Martin's reasoning that camp_site=camp_pitch more looks like it 
being a specification of camp_site rather than describing a feature 
within. Following Marc's examples (parking and sports centre) 
tourism=camp_pitch (following tourism=camp_site and 
tourism=caravan_site) would be my preferred choice. Even more so, as it 
wouldn't look as if a camp_pitch could not be used within a caravan_site.


On the other hand I have used camp_site=camp_pitch before myself and I 
am unsure if retagging these x'000 existing occurrences would make sense.


Tobias


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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

That's an interesting example. Was the wheel put there as a landmark
or route marker, or just for fun?

If the tag "place=locality" didn't exist, how would you tag this?

On 4/15/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As an example of a locality that has never had a population
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/117041320
>
> /The Wheel/ (a car wheel - no tyre) was originally mounted on a tree by
> bushwalkers to mark the hub of the Blue Labyrinth's ridges.
>
> No one has ever lived there. Plenty of people go past, and it still a
> navigational feature.
>
> Fairly certain other localities have their stories to tell too.
>
>
> n 15/04/19 17:23, Warin wrote:
>> From the original start of place=locality
>>
>> /All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger
>> areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for
>> places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any
>> geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a
>> name tag to. /
>>
>> That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had
>> population, or places that did not have a population.
>>
>> But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged
>> disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city
>>
>> I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to
>> use' with the others there.
>> /
>> /
>> On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg
>>> mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
 The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
 populated place but no longer has a population.
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag
>>> definition as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a
>>> settlement or dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is
>>> living around there, it means this name is not for an inhabited
>>> place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be used where no
>>> specific tag has yet been developed.
>>> (e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain
>>> peaks, wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so
>>> we don’t use locality for them)
>>>
>>> I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main
>>> tag might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it
>>> depends on the actually proposed values.
>>>
>>> For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
>>> abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town
>>>
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values
>>>
>>> which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more
>>> frequent than any “ghost” variations.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Martin
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Dave Swarthout]

Yes, that's one locality for every four persons in the state, an
interesting statistic. Many of these are indeed GNIS imports and some of
those are also tagged with
"gnis:Class": "Populated Place"
which is often inaccurate. I'm certain the gold rushes Alaska experienced
during the past 150 years contributed to many of these abandoned "Populated
Places". Some of them were quite large (several thousands of inhabitants)
but as gold became scarcer and more difficult to extract from the ground,
were abandoned. I typically add only the abandoned=yes tag on any feature
that either appears to be or is known to be deserted.

I tag a typical abandoned place=locality with only the name, the source,
the abandoned=yes tag and occasionally with a description if I think it's
interesting enough. Some of this information is found in a very useful
public domain publication, the Dictionary of Alaska Place Names, which
contains a wealth of information about such localities. I use it constantly
in my Alaska mapping work.

I don't have a good guess as to the validity of the existing localities nor
can I estimate how many might be actually natural features like
mountain_range or valleys but there are definitely plenty of those.
Sometimes people tag groups of islands with the locality tag as opposed to
creating a relation of some sort. It's a much simpler solution and provides
the mapper assurance that it will render. I don't use that approach because
I don't think it's correct.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 7:29 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> > There are countless old settlements, gold mining camps, road building
> > camps, airstrips, and even Native American villages scattered around our
> > immense state. Most are indeed abandoned and sometimes I add
> abandoned=yes
> > to the tags, especially if there is no longer any sign of habitation
> > visible on satellite imagery.
>
> Thanks Dave,
>
> What tags do you usually add for a former settlement, or for an
> abandoned gold mining or road building camp?
>
> Are you using just place=locality with abandoned=yes, or is the tag
> "abandoned" always referring to a more specific feature, like
> historic=mine or aeroway=aerodrome?
>
> > An Overpass query returned almost 190,000 nodes along with 417 ways and
> 46
> > relations tagged as place=locality, that are located in Alaska.
>
> There are 750k people in Alaska, so there's more than one locality for
> every 4 people!
>
> Clearly most of these were imported, probably from GNIS(?).
>
> In your experience, how many of the imported locality nodes seem to be
> correctly tagged?
>
> Could many of them be something more specific, like natural=valley,
> natural=ridge, natural=peak, natural=bay, railway=junction,
> highway=junction, place=island, etc?
>
> Joseph
>


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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

On 4/15/19, Lionel Giard  wrote:
> In Belgium (where i map), we generally use this tag for place without
> population ... like a crossroads

I would suggest highway=junction with name=*

> a field

landuse=meadow or =farmland with name=*

> part of a forest

natural=wood with name=*

> some hills

Depending on what the name refers to, natural=peak or natural=ridge.
If neither tag fits, natural=hill could work, or
natural=mountain_range.
Perhaps there should be natural=hill_range for a connected series of hills?

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> I'm certain the gold rushes Alaska experienced
> during the past 150 years contributed to many of these abandoned "Populated
> Places".

I've checked, and I don't see any tag like "historic=campsite" or
similar. This could account for many of the named places I know in my
home area in Northern California as well. I also wonder how the
locations of nomadic campsites are tagged in places like the Sahara or
Mongolia. Nomadic lifestyles are becoming very rare, but there are
still a few places. There are still Irish travelers and Roma people
who live in temporary settlements. I wonder how these are tagged. They
are not tourism=caravan_site but place=hamlet suggests a settlement,
rather than a temporary camp?

> I tag a typical abandoned place=locality with only the name, the source,
> the abandoned=yes tag and occasionally with a description if I think it's
> interesting enough.

I like the suggestion from this thread to add
abandoned:place=hamlet/village for the former mining towns. This key
has already been used over 6000 times. It would also be possible to
use disused:place=* for settlements that are uninhabited but still
have buildings, eg a ghost town.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned%3Aplace

> Sometimes people tag groups of islands with the locality tag as opposed to
> creating a relation of some sort.

There is a request to render place=archipelago now (Issue #3394); I
will look into it. It's only used 740 times, so it would help if more
people start using the tag. It would certainly be useful here in
Indonesia. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/place=archipelago

-Joseph
(BTW, I would recommend tagging archipelagos as simple nodes or as
multipolygon relations that include all of the islands. The wiki pages
suggests using a "type=cluster" relation, but this would be hard to
use)

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Camp_site=camp_pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Apr 2019, at 13:45, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> 
> tourism=camp_pitch (following tourism=camp_site and tourism=caravan_site) 
> would be my preferred choice.



+1, btw, there are already 226 of these:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/tourism=camp_pitch


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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Kevin Kenny]

There are named localities that have only the most tenuous of
identifiable features.

One example that I've visited is 'Sled Harbor'. It never had a
population. It was just a place where the woods were open enough that
loggers could store their sleds there in the summer. It's now right at
the boundary between protected wilderness and International Paper
land. Since there's an easement for the public to travel International
Paper's road (well, logging track), it's the farthest that one can
lawfully drive (well, force passage with a 4WD, when there isn't deep
snow or mud) to pick up or drop off a party. Because of this, hikers
still use the name. But it's really just a point where the
highway=track crosses into the boundary=protected_area. There's no
formal parking. It isn't the endpoint of the track, since it continues
in farther to abandoned logging camps dating from before the state
owned the Jessup River parcel. All that there is there is a sign
saying something like, "no motor vehicles beyond this point."  It is
still a place with a name.

It did come in from GNIS as 'populated place,' which it is not and
never was. Still, I don't see a good alternative to place=location for
it, so I'm definitely against the idea of removing locations
wholesale.

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Volker Schmidt]

A side remark. Triggered by comparing abandoned palces with abandoned
railways (and smilar),
a ghost town with (some) buidlings still standing should be abandoned: ...
a ghost town without trace on the ground should be tagged with razed: ...
or dismantled: ... , but not with abandoned: ...
Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/150938807
This is a former town, of which you do no see any trace on the ground any
more (apart from a few racks)


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On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 at 17:25, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> There are named localities that have only the most tenuous of
> identifiable features.
>
> One example that I've visited is 'Sled Harbor'. It never had a
> population. It was just a place where the woods were open enough that
> loggers could store their sleds there in the summer. It's now right at
> the boundary between protected wilderness and International Paper
> land. Since there's an easement for the public to travel International
> Paper's road (well, logging track), it's the farthest that one can
> lawfully drive (well, force passage with a 4WD, when there isn't deep
> snow or mud) to pick up or drop off a party. Because of this, hikers
> still use the name. But it's really just a point where the
> highway=track crosses into the boundary=protected_area. There's no
> formal parking. It isn't the endpoint of the track, since it continues
> in farther to abandoned logging camps dating from before the state
> owned the Jessup River parcel. All that there is there is a sign
> saying something like, "no motor vehicles beyond this point."  It is
> still a place with a name.
>
> It did come in from GNIS as 'populated place,' which it is not and
> never was. Still, I don't see a good alternative to place=location for
> it, so I'm definitely against the idea of removing locations
> wholesale.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:49 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> A side remark. Triggered by comparing abandoned palces with abandoned
> railways (and smilar),
> a ghost town with (some) buidlings still standing should be abandoned: ...
> a ghost town without trace on the ground should be tagged with razed: ...
> or dismantled: ... , but not with abandoned: ...
> Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/150938807
> This is a former town, of which you do no see any trace on the ground any
> more (apart from a few racks)
>

I thought that the commoner lifecycle prefix was 'demolished' ?

I use 'disused' if the buildings are relatively well preserved and might be
rehabbed, 'abandoned' if they're ruined, 'demolished' if the buildings are
not standing but the settlement is still observable. Most of the ghost
settlements that I've visited have clearly visible building foundations,
stone walls separating fields, and road grades (which may be grown to
trees, but are still obviously artificially graded) and are thus
'demolished.' (The ones on State land have likely had their buildings burnt
to discourage squatters.) Theymay also have formations like tannery vats,
mine shafts, mill races or cellar holes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/8690778427 is typical of 'demolished' -
the road has mature trees standing in it and is not passable for any
distance by anything on wheels, but the fact that the area was once a
settlement is obvious. (I've found the remains of a mill, a tannery, and a
forge in that former settlement, but have not been able to discover even
its name.)
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

[bkil]

Warin did not mention how they are purchased, i.e., whether an auction
is being held, or if only market haggling is being done. Assuming the
latter, what has been said is still consistent with
amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock.

This sounds like a different feature:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stockyard
"(US) An enclosed yard, with pens, sheds etc. or stables, where
livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, treated, sold,
or shipped etc."

Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
bring in livestock).

I'm still looking for the answer regarding the ratio of auction vs.
haggling in USA livestock markets/auctions, so we can come up with
tags suiting their use cases as well.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:16 AM Tony Shield  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> You seem to be describing a stockyard that is associated with an
> auction. Could these be relevant starters for tags?
>
> Tony
>
> On 15/04/2019 00:23, Warin wrote:
> > In Australia commercial livestock (sheep, cattle) are sold through
> > these livestock markets.
> >
> > They may be transported for several days to get to the market, rested
> > there before sale to recover from their trip.
> >
> > As such the market can be large with feeding etc.
> >
> > Once sold they are then transported again, possibly overseas.
> >
> > https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839250-3x2-large.jpg?v=2
> >
> > https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839176-3x2-large.jpg?v=2
> >
> > I do not see them as 'shops'... in the typical physical sense.
> >
> >
> > On 14/04/19 17:51, bkil wrote:
> >> In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
> >> livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
> >> market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
> >> haggling, though.
> >>
> >> We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
> >> liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
> >> much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
> >> permanent feature anyway.
> >>
> >> What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
> >> USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
> >> and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
> >> auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
> >> have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
> >> livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
> >> auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
> >> Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).
> >>
> >> If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
> >> for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
> >> in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
> >> agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
> >> or machinery?
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
> >>  wrote:
> >>> I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
> >>> sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
> >>> auction.
> >>>
> >>> For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
> >>> amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.
> >>>
> >>> But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
> >>> general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
> >>> marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
> >>> fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
> >>> And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
> >>> chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.
> >>>
> >>> If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
> >>> marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
> >>> market).
> >>>
> >>> ___
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> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Dave Swarthout]

Joseph wrote:

There is a request to render place=archipelago now (Issue #3394); I
will look into it. It's only used 740 times, so it would help if more
people start using the tag. It would certainly be useful here in
Indonesia.
(BTW, I would recommend tagging archipelagos as simple nodes or as
multipolygon relations that include all of the islands. The wiki pages
suggests using a "type=cluster" relation, but this would be hard to
use)

The groups of islands I mentioned to are not archipelagos but merely
several islands sharing a name. The same logic applies to named groups of
lakes, for example, Three Lakes (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6714525), which I tagged as a
multipolygon. Lately, as a result of a discussion on this list, I've begun
using type=group for this sort of feature. OSM Carto doesn't render either
type=cluster or type=group multipolygons so many mappers will no doubt
continue to use type=multipolygon for them.

I'm willing to add a more specific tag for abandoned localities if we can
decide exactly which one of the several alternatives is the best candidate.
Of  course, 99% of such places in Alaska cannot be inspected in person to
decide if foundations and infrastructure exist because they are incredibly
remote. One has only satellite imagery with which to envision what's on the
ground. That's one reason I fall back to simply using the abandoned=yes tag.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:49 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> A side remark. Triggered by comparing abandoned palces with abandoned
>> railways (and smilar),
>> a ghost town with (some) buidlings still standing should be abandoned: ...
>> a ghost town without trace on the ground should be tagged with razed: ...
>> or dismantled: ... , but not with abandoned: ...
>> Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/150938807
>> This is a former town, of which you do no see any trace on the ground any
>> more (apart from a few racks)
>>
>
> I thought that the commoner lifecycle prefix was 'demolished' ?
>
> I use 'disused' if the buildings are relatively well preserved and might
> be rehabbed, 'abandoned' if they're ruined, 'demolished' if the buildings
> are not standing but the settlement is still observable. Most of the ghost
> settlements that I've visited have clearly visible building foundations,
> stone walls separating fields, and road grades (which may be grown to
> trees, but are still obviously artificially graded) and are thus
> 'demolished.' (The ones on State land have likely had their buildings burnt
> to discourage squatters.) Theymay also have formations like tannery vats,
> mine shafts, mill races or cellar holes.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/8690778427 is typical of 'demolished'
> - the road has mature trees standing in it and is not passable for any
> distance by anything on wheels, but the fact that the area was once a
> settlement is obvious. (I've found the remains of a mill, a tannery, and a
> forge in that former settlement, but have not been able to discover even
> its name.)
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:52 PM bkil  wrote:
> Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
> lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
> bring in livestock).

Not to mention anyone who lives downwind!

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Can you give an example of one of these groups of named islands? If they
are close together and divided from other islands in the area, I would use
“archipelago”. And multipolygons should be used for any feature that
consists of several areas.

Islands always qualify as an area, so there’s no need to use an unusual
relation type (unless they are mapped as nodes and you don’t have good
enough imagery to map their coastlines yet)

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 5:57 AM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Joseph wrote:
>
> There is a request to render place=archipelago now (Issue #3394); I
> will look into it. It's only used 740 times, so it would help if more
> people start using the tag. It would certainly be useful here in
> Indonesia.
> (BTW, I would recommend tagging archipelagos as simple nodes or as
> multipolygon relations that include all of the islands. The wiki pages
> suggests using a "type=cluster" relation, but this would be hard to
> use)
>
> The groups of islands I mentioned to are not archipelagos but merely
> several islands sharing a name. The same logic applies to named groups of
> lakes, for example, Three Lakes (
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6714525), which I tagged as a
> multipolygon. Lately, as a result of a discussion on this list, I've begun
> using type=group for this sort of feature. OSM Carto doesn't render either
> type=cluster or type=group multipolygons so many mappers will no doubt
> continue to use type=multipolygon for them.
>
> I'm willing to add a more specific tag for abandoned localities if we can
> decide exactly which one of the several alternatives is the best candidate.
> Of  course, 99% of such places in Alaska cannot be inspected in person to
> decide if foundations and infrastructure exist because they are incredibly
> remote. One has only satellite imagery with which to envision what's on the
> ground. That's one reason I fall back to simply using the abandoned=yes tag.
>
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:49 PM Volker Schmidt 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A side remark. Triggered by comparing abandoned palces with abandoned
>>> railways (and smilar),
>>> a ghost town with (some) buidlings still standing should be abandoned:
>>> ...
>>> a ghost town without trace on the ground should be tagged with razed:
>>> ... or dismantled: ... , but not with abandoned: ...
>>> Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/150938807
>>> This is a former town, of which you do no see any trace on the ground
>>> any more (apart from a few racks)
>>>
>>
>> I thought that the commoner lifecycle prefix was 'demolished' ?
>>
>> I use 'disused' if the buildings are relatively well preserved and might
>> be rehabbed, 'abandoned' if they're ruined, 'demolished' if the buildings
>> are not standing but the settlement is still observable. Most of the ghost
>> settlements that I've visited have clearly visible building foundations,
>> stone walls separating fields, and road grades (which may be grown to
>> trees, but are still obviously artificially graded) and are thus
>> 'demolished.' (The ones on State land have likely had their buildings burnt
>> to discourage squatters.) Theymay also have formations like tannery vats,
>> mine shafts, mill races or cellar holes.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/8690778427 is typical of
>> 'demolished' - the road has mature trees standing in it and is not passable
>> for any distance by anything on wheels, but the fact that the area was once
>> a settlement is obvious. (I've found the remains of a mill, a tannery, and
>> a forge in that former settlement, but have not been able to discover even
>> its name.)
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Those are good points. I’ve created stub wiki pages for Key:abandoned:place
and Key:disused:place - please edit if you have things to add.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:15 AM Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:49 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> A side remark. Triggered by comparing abandoned palces with abandoned
>> railways (and smilar),
>> a ghost town with (some) buidlings still standing should be abandoned: ...
>> a ghost town without trace on the ground should be tagged with razed: ...
>> or dismantled: ... , but not with abandoned: ...
>> Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/150938807
>> This is a former town, of which you do no see any trace on the ground any
>> more (apart from a few racks)
>>
>
> I thought that the commoner lifecycle prefix was 'demolished' ?
>
> I use 'disused' if the buildings are relatively well preserved and might
> be rehabbed, 'abandoned' if they're ruined, 'demolished' if the buildings
> are not standing but the settlement is still observable. Most of the ghost
> settlements that I've visited have clearly visible building foundations,
> stone walls separating fields, and road grades (which may be grown to
> trees, but are still obviously artificially graded) and are thus
> 'demolished.' (The ones on State land have likely had their buildings burnt
> to discourage squatters.) Theymay also have formations like tannery vats,
> mine shafts, mill races or cellar holes.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/8690778427 is typical of 'demolished'
> - the road has mature trees standing in it and is not passable for any
> distance by anything on wheels, but the fact that the area was once a
> settlement is obvious. (I've found the remains of a mill, a tannery, and a
> forge in that former settlement, but have not been able to discover even
> its name.)
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Warin]

On 15/04/19 22:04, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

That's an interesting example. Was the wheel put there as a landmark
or route marker, or just for fun?


I don't know. I would assume as a landmark, to form a meeting place or a simple 
navigational aid. I don't even know if the present wheel is the original one.



If the tag "place=locality" didn't exist, how would you tag this?


I'd ask here, that is one of the things this group is good for.



On 4/15/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an example of a locality that has never had a population

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/117041320

/The Wheel/ (a car wheel - no tyre) was originally mounted on a tree by
bushwalkers to mark the hub of the Blue Labyrinth's ridges.

No one has ever lived there. Plenty of people go past, and it still a
navigational feature.

Fairly certain other localities have their stories to tell too.


n 15/04/19 17:23, Warin wrote:

 From the original start of place=locality

/All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger
areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for
places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any
geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a
name tag to. /

That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had
population, or places that did not have a population.

But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged
disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city

I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to
use' with the others there.
/
/
On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone

On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
populated place but no longer has a population.


I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag
definition as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a
settlement or dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is
living around there, it means this name is not for an inhabited
place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be used where no
specific tag has yet been developed.
(e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain
peaks, wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so
we don’t use locality for them)

I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main
tag might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it
depends on the actually proposed values.

For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values

which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more
frequent than any “ghost” variations.

Cheers, Martin





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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

[Warin]

Typically these are auction sales.


On 16/04/19 06:57, Kevin Kenny wrote:

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:52 PM bkil  wrote:

Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
bring in livestock).

Not to mention anyone who lives downwind!


Yes. Along with sewage treatment for smell.
But the waiting animal cries from abattoirs is more pervasive ... not a good 
place to camp.
Smells can drive away mozzies so they can be of benefit .. just eat somewhere 
else!


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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 06:52, bkil  wrote:

> Warin did not mention how they are purchased, i.e., whether an auction
> is being held


Yep, as mentioned previously, livestock are (almost ?) always sold via
auction. Have a look at
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2082183102010269 which
shows a little bit of the auction process in the background.

Another description of it is:
http://www.mareebasaleyards.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53:purchase&catid=31:general&Itemid=46


> This sounds like a different feature:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stockyard
> "(US) An enclosed yard, with pens, sheds etc. or stables, where
> livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, treated, sold,
> or shipped etc."
>

Yes, that's a yard where stock is held. A sales yard is like this
http://www.dalbyregionalsaleyards.com.au/about/ which is broadly similar,
but not quite the same.

I'm still looking for the answer regarding the ratio of auction vs.
> haggling in USA livestock markets/auctions,


Not easy to find, but here's some info:
https://www.farmanddairy.com/news/how-to-understand-the-livestock-markets/308078.html
which seems to suggest that most are sold by auction?

Australian info says the same thing:
https://www.mla.com.au/research-and-development/preparing-for-market/selling-options/

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Place=archipelago wiki page update

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I've just updated the wiki page for the in-use tag "place=archipelago".

The main changes are:
- Described an archipelago as a named chain, cluster or group of
closely related islands
- warning against creating giant multipolygons by mapping the whole
Philippines as a single multipolygon relation
- warning that "all the islands in this sea" is not a useful
archipelago; eg Macaronesia (=Canary Islands, Azores, Cape Verde
Islands...), "all the islands in the Aegean"
- Added info about benefits of using multipolygon relations vs cluster
relations (the later is not supported by most map users)
- mentioned that some are mapped as nodes (although this is not preferred)

The page already suggested that archipelagos should be mapped as a
relation that includes all of the coastlines of the islands as members
of the relation.

I believe with 740 uses this tag is clearly "in use", but not "de facto".

Any comments or suggestions for improvements?

- Joseph

(Also see Openstreetmap-Carto Issue #3394 about displaying the names
of archipelagos
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3394)

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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Dave Swarthout]

> Can you give an example of one of these groups of named islands? If they
are close together and divided from other islands in the area, I would use
“archipelago”.

Here's a small group of only two islands that is definitely not an
archipelago, (as I understand that term, i.e., a "chain" of islands), and
have one name to describe both islands, the Leland Islands:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/20287799#map=14/58.6562/-135.9916

In this case, the original mapper didn't tag them as a multipolygon but
applied the place=island tag to the group as a node. I fact, he didn't even
bother to redraw the horrible PGS coastline to separate them into
individual islands.

Alaska has hundreds of these island groups.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 7:12 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 15/04/19 22:04, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > That's an interesting example. Was the wheel put there as a landmark
> > or route marker, or just for fun?
>
> I don't know. I would assume as a landmark, to form a meeting place or a
> simple navigational aid. I don't even know if the present wheel is the
> original one.
>
> >
> > If the tag "place=locality" didn't exist, how would you tag this?
>
> I'd ask here, that is one of the things this group is good for.
>
> >
> > On 4/15/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> As an example of a locality that has never had a population
> >>
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/117041320
> >>
> >> /The Wheel/ (a car wheel - no tyre) was originally mounted on a tree by
> >> bushwalkers to mark the hub of the Blue Labyrinth's ridges.
> >>
> >> No one has ever lived there. Plenty of people go past, and it still a
> >> navigational feature.
> >>
> >> Fairly certain other localities have their stories to tell too.
> >>
> >>
> >> n 15/04/19 17:23, Warin wrote:
> >>>  From the original start of place=locality
> >>>
> >>> /All current place tags are for either populated areas, or for larger
> >>> areas of County sized or bigger. The place=locality tag is useful for
> >>> places that have a specific name, but do not necessarily have any
> >>> geographic feature or population centre that could be used to attach a
> >>> name tag to. /
> >>>
> >>> That to me suggest that places that locality can be a place that had
> >>> population, or places that did not have a population.
> >>>
> >>> But, I agree, that places that had a population would be better tagged
> >>> disused:/abandonded: place=hamlet/town/village/city
> >>>
> >>> I think that can go on the wiki for locality... under 'when not to
> >>> use' with the others there.
> >>> /
> >>> /
> >>> On 15/04/19 17:03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
>  sent from a phone
> 
>  On 15. Apr 2019, at 03:55, Joseph Eisenberg
>  mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> 
> > The most important value would be one for a locality that is a former
> > populated place but no longer has a population.
> 
>  I’ve always understood the population part of the locality tag
>  definition as a way of saying the place name does not relate to a
>  settlement or dwelling (but it doesn’t necessarily mean nobody is
>  living around there, it means this name is not for an inhabited
>  place). A generic tag for a place name/ toponym, to be used where no
>  specific tag has yet been developed.
>  (e.g. we have specific tags for toponyms that refer to mountain
>  peaks, wetlands, lakes, islands, deserts, caves, settlements, etc. so
>  we don’t use locality for them)
> 
>  I’m not sure I’d support locality subtags, for lots of things a main
>  tag might be more fitting with the established tagging system, but it
>  depends on the actually proposed values.
> 
>  For ghost towns (settlements) I’ve found a lot tagged as
>  abandoned:place=hamlet/village/town
> 
>  https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/abandoned:place#values
> 
>  which seems inline with the rest of our tagging and is by far more
>  frequent than any “ghost” variations.
> 
>  Cheers, Martin
> 
> 
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Mark Wagner]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:25:14 +0200
Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> place=locality is currently used as a generic tag for anything with a 
> name for which no established more precise tag exists.
> 
> This kind of contradicts the idea of OSM which would normally suggest
> to invent a new tag then for the type of feature you have.
> Subtagging the generic tag to make it less generic would kind of take
> this to a whole new level.  You could take this even further and
> suggest tagging everything in OSM something like 'feature=thing' and
> then differentiating only through 'thing=*'.
> 
> Long story short - to better differentiate what is currently tagged 
> place=locality the way to go is IMO to create more specific top level 
> tags (or use existing ones like the mentioned "disused:/abandonded:").

There's a "place=locality" near me called "Seven Mile Airstrip".  Now,
that's an interesting choice of names for the place, because there's no
evidence that it was ever used for aviation.  The best guess I've seen
for where the name came from is that it was intended as an auxiliary
runway for Spokane Army Air Depot during World War II, and after
construction was canceled, the name stuck around.

What tag would you recommend for "thing people believe is the abandoned
construction site for a runway that was never built"?

-- 
Mark

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[Tagging] documenting cycleway=crossing

[John Willis via Tagging]

> highway=cycleway cycleway=crossing


I have been mapping more and more cycleways here in Japan, and there is a true 
need for cycleway=crossing. 

Unlike some other countries where the cycleway is more akin to a road, 
cycleways here in Japan are often treated like footpaths, and dead-end into 
sidewalks and use pedestrian crosswalks for crossing roads. I have no problem 
using relation links to incluse non-cycleway ways into a larger cyclepath 
replation, but often times a cyclepath crosses a road and there is heavily 
painted markings, such as a zebra crossing. 

there are ~12,000 uses of cycleway=crossing  on ways according to taginfo, but 
no documentation for the tag. 

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cycleway=crossing 


I understand that in some places the mental model of using a crossing for 
something that feels like a “road” is absurd, but for paths that are forced to 
use crosswalks and various pedestrian traffic control features, we need to 
document and codify the cycleway=crossing tag. when you use a zebra crossing to 
cross a road, not marking that as a “crossing” of some type feels wrong. 

Javbw


> On Jan 27, 2019, at 2:15 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 26. Jan 2019, at 15:17, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>> 
>> The fact that the road is crossed by is crossed by a cycleway is already 
>> defined by the "highway" tags' values of the two crossing highways.
> 
> 
> +1, I would go with highway=crossing and crossing=type of crossing, on the 
> crossing node and highway=cycleway cycleway=crossing on the crossing part of 
> the cycleway (way)
> 
> Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Subtag for place=locality?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

That's a challenging one, but it's possible to use a lifecycle prefix
like proposed:aeroway=aerodrome or abandoned=yes?

If 2 prefixes can be added, you could use abandoned:proposed:aeroway=aerodrome

But I wonder if people are talking about the former proposed airstrip
when they refer to this location.

Is there a physical geography feature at this location as well,
perhaps a valley or plateau or natural meadow?

On 4/16/19, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:25:14 +0200
> Christoph Hormann  wrote:
>
>> place=locality is currently used as a generic tag for anything with a
>> name for which no established more precise tag exists.
>>
>> This kind of contradicts the idea of OSM which would normally suggest
>> to invent a new tag then for the type of feature you have.
>> Subtagging the generic tag to make it less generic would kind of take
>> this to a whole new level.  You could take this even further and
>> suggest tagging everything in OSM something like 'feature=thing' and
>> then differentiating only through 'thing=*'.
>>
>> Long story short - to better differentiate what is currently tagged
>> place=locality the way to go is IMO to create more specific top level
>> tags (or use existing ones like the mentioned "disused:/abandonded:").
>
> There's a "place=locality" near me called "Seven Mile Airstrip".  Now,
> that's an interesting choice of names for the place, because there's no
> evidence that it was ever used for aviation.  The best guess I've seen
> for where the name came from is that it was intended as an auxiliary
> runway for Spokane Army Air Depot during World War II, and after
> construction was canceled, the name stuck around.
>
> What tag would you recommend for "thing people believe is the abandoned
> construction site for a runway that was never built"?
>
> --
> Mark
>
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