Re: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais [SHORT]
Dear me, Tony, I hope that you are not calling us mud slingers just because we responded with technical facts after you positioned our product, Visage, as "complex" in this public forum. Wouldn't you do the same? - Original Message - From: "Tony Gravagno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 3:54 PM Subject: RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais [SHORT] Again, I'm not getting into a mud slinging match. For whatever reason, people are excited about DesignBais without the mud. I'm learning as I go why they're getting excited and I'm just trying to share some info. Once people have the info they can do their own feature comparisons and make their own decisions. If someone wants to commision a competitive analysis, I can provide that as a for-fee service. This notice was not intended to provide an opportunity for people to (so to speak) rush on stage to hawk their own wares. I'd hope that people could be a bit more reserved. I won't be posting to this thread again unless something new comes up. Thanks for your time. Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais [SHORT]
Again, I'm not getting into a mud slinging match. For whatever reason, people are excited about DesignBais without the mud. I'm learning as I go why they're getting excited and I'm just trying to share some info. Once people have the info they can do their own feature comparisons and make their own decisions. If someone wants to commision a competitive analysis, I can provide that as a for-fee service. This notice was not intended to provide an opportunity for people to (so to speak) rush on stage to hawk their own wares. I'd hope that people could be a bit more reserved. I won't be posting to this thread again unless something new comes up. Thanks for your time. Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais
In a message dated 9/7/2004 3:46:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > The pricing model is also very attractive for sites that want to get up and > going quickly. $1000US for a developer license and end-user seats are $100 > per year for license and support. See imho this is a mistake. Developer licenses should be free. That's how you expand your market. (Accuterm has free developer version btw.) Remember all those free computers thrown into primary schools. Why? So those little kiddies would grow up already familiar with product x and willing to buy more product x over the next five to fifty years. Now that's marketing. Will --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais [LONG]
Tony (and Sean), I can't let this "challenge" go unanswered, and whilst I know you don't want to get into a feature for feature slugging match . sorry folks, please switch channels now, cause this could be a long one (and I also appreciate that there are other products in this space as well) I've embedded comments : >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-u2- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno >Sent: Wednesday, 8 September 2004 8:37 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais > >Sean W Ferguson wrote: >> Interesting product. How does it compare to Visage? From a quick >> glance at the DesignBais website they look very similar in concept and >> design. >> http://www.staminasoftware.com/Products/Visage/Products_Visage.htm > [Ross Ferris] Sean, Whilst on the surface the products appear to provide a similar end result, and certainly the "concept" that I believe has driven the design of both products is the same (GUI using thin client technology with a zero deployment footprint beyond a standard Windows install), under the hood they are completely different. My understanding is that DesignBAIS (DB) has been developed using ASP technology (circa 1997 when Microsoft shipped Active Server Pages with IIS 3.0, not to be confused with the later/latest ASPX technology which is part of the Microsoft .NET strategy) We considered this path ourselves, but we found what we considered to be "serious" problems with it, some of which may not become obvious until a system is under load. For example, as the name (ASP) "nearly" suggests, pages are created "on the fly" on the server using script and COM objects, but this dynamic nature means that the page itself can't be cached by the client and so has to be sent out EVERY TIME a page is requested. Whilst you may not notice this impost over a high speed LAN, if you DO deploy over the Internet you may start to see "stutter" quite early in the piece, simply because a page that you have already referenced a hundred times today may need to be sent down the line yet again ! The ASP model also maintains "state" (sort of like "where a traditional program is up to", variable assignments etc) within the ASP core on a single machine, which means in a web farm situation requests for a particular "session" (roughly a PIB or user in UV terms) have to be routed via the same machine, even if it is under extreme load. Once more, this may not manifest itself at the smaller end of town, but we didn't want to start out making compromises :-) As a result, Visage uses static web pages (which ARE cached on the client to improve speed, only the data that will populate a page with information has to be sent, and even then we have techniques to avoid this if we don't have to), and state isn't reliant on a web server (you could reboot, or loose, a web server in a large Visage array/web farm without missing a beat) We also saw issues with debugging, speed of script interpretation on the server, the complexity of the processing model, and many others, and I believe that these same concerns have fuelled Microsoft's development of ASPX as their next generation solution. (DEEP under the hood the differences in the products can have a more significant and profound impact. ASP/DB will only ever generate HTML, but with Visage we actually generate HTML from the XML definitions created with the Visage.Designer - our Version 7 product to be released later this year lays the foundation for generating XAML (eXtensible Application Markup Language), which is the core of the Avalon display technology that will surface with the "Longhorn" project from Microsoft in 2006(?). There is some other "interesting" stuff in terms of "fatter" clients (Java & .NET/Mono), web services etc, and some other "interesting" concepts that we still have under wraps in the pipeline) You are right when you say the products yield a similar result, and for the majority of people that is probably enough. >I have no experience with Visage yet, outside of presentations at various >Spectrum shows, but from what I've seen it's more "complex" than >DesignBais. >I distinguish between features and complexity. In my mind, DesignBais will >appeal to a wider variety of Pick developers because it does not expose >them >to HTML, scripting, components, etc.. It has a lot of features but it's >simple for Pick developers to get at them. [Ross Ferris] I have no experience with DB, so on that score we are "even", BUT I've snipped the following from an email I received last month from someone that HAS done the comparison, and
RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais
This is precisely the reason why I don't want to get into a shooting match. People spend more time focusing on product comparisons, competitive positioning, and posturing metaphors like "tricycles" than they do on just appreciating products for their own merits. This is an election year in the USA, I see enough hash slung at candidates, I'd rather hear what the individuals have to offer. It's not like the entire MV community is on the fence trying to decide between one product and another. Visage is in a crowd with other products that have had their time to appeal to the prospect base, and those who are going to use them are largely already there. DesignBais is a response to the established offering and I believe it responds well. My CDBMA presentation will profile DesignBais as a product, and put into perspective why Nebula R&D is adopting and recommending the software. I intend to give a brief but fair comparison to other offerings like Visage, FlashCONNECT, Web Wizard, and Coyote (products often perceived to be in the same space) but this isn't a competitive marketing effort, and there will not be a checklist of features to see how various products measure up. Patrick, I haven't heard from Ross yet. If you can give me a remote view of the current release I'll be happy to give it fair mention. I just won't be dominating the talk with references to software other than DesignBais. Regards, Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick Williams wrote: > Tony, > > Why not get into a shooting match? Match Visage Designer and Visage > BIT feature for feature... > especially true file locking and those systems requirements that > will shoot back at you if they are "too simple" to really work. > > And tricycles are simpler than two wheelers but we managed to make > the jump because we saw the greater advantage! > > Kindest regards, > > Patrick Williams, President > AMERICAN COMPUTER TECHNICS, INC. > Raleigh, NC > 919-567-0042 --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais
Sean W Ferguson wrote: > Interesting product. How does it compare to Visage? From a quick > glance at the DesignBais website they look very similar in concept and > design. > http://www.staminasoftware.com/Products/Visage/Products_Visage.htm I have no experience with Visage yet, outside of presentations at various Spectrum shows, but from what I've seen it's more "complex" than DesignBais. I distinguish between features and complexity. In my mind, DesignBais will appeal to a wider variety of Pick developers because it does not expose them to HTML, scripting, components, etc.. It has a lot of features but it's simple for Pick developers to get at them. The pricing model is also very attractive for sites that want to get up and going quickly. $1000US for a developer license and end-user seats are $100 per year for license and support. This is very attractive for small end-user sites as well as large ASP service offerings or other WAN deployment. Over a period of years you might find Visage competitive in this area, but these days who knows how many sites or users we're going to have over a period of years? DesignBais was also written by a company who has an insurance package written in SB+, and there are strong similarities between SB+ and DesignBais. There are some basic tools in the package for helping with migration from SB+ (should anyone wish to do so), or integration with it for _adding_ a web browser interface. This is a strong selling point that seems to appeal to a lot of SB+ VARs. Speaking of which, you don't have to take any promotional commentary from me - at the Spectrum shows and elsewhere, DesignBais is getting rave commentary from people who see the presentations. I haven't seen this sort of enthusiasm for any product in the Pick industry for a few years now, including Visage, which is why I'm getting so closely involved with this product. As a developer who's familiar with most technologies out there, it doesn't matter if the software appeals to "my" sense of elegance - what's important is that the Pick VARs who see this are getting very excited about it. It's their/your opinion that counts. Since my target market is most VARs, if this is what they/you want then I'm all over it. If Visage were getting the same reaction from people I'd be all over that too - and maybe some day I will be, who knows. Now all of that said, just today I sent a note to my friend Ross Ferris at Stamina, because I want to make sure I'm making a fair comparison and giving all of the facts when someone asks me this very question. After I have a few exchanges with Ross and maybe a demo on the current release, I'll get back to you with a followup. I really don't want to get into a shooting match between products. What's important is that developers who are interested in GUI development should begin to modularize their applications, and from there they can port to almost any GUI technology out there, now or in the future. The bottom line is being able to sell more applications, and I'll be happy to help any VAR who's serious about doing that. The tactical approach (tools) is far less important than the overall strategy of making an application more attractive to help it sell. HTH, Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] Southern California presentation on DesignBais
Interesting product. How does it compare to Visage? From a quick glance at the DesignBais website they look very similar in concept and design. http://www.staminasoftware.com/Products/Visage/Products_Visage.htm Tony Gravagno wrote: In case anyone missed my recent mention of this I thought I'd dedicate a thread to it. http://www.cdbma.org Inquiries welcome about DesignBais for U2 and other MV platforms. A video presentation on CD is available, shipped from Nebula R&D in the USA or DesignBais in Australia, depending on where you are. If you miss the CDBMA presentation you'll have another opportunity at the London Spectrum and elsewhere. Please contact me if you'd like a presentation for your user group in the USA. Thanks for your time. Tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
