Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Vikram Goyal]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 03:09:18PM -0600, g wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/28/2013 02:35 PM, Garry T. Williams wrote:
> 
> >Without the proper headers, correct threading is impossible.  My
> >client approximates it.
> 
> this is true.
> 
> >Your client is doing the same thing -- approximating threading.
> 
> it may well be true and is why i asked david to post what settings
> he has in "View > Sort by" settings
> 
> >As to why this guy among all the others here is posting broken
> >messages, I am betting g is correct.
> 
> thank you. if it where not for my 'chemo brain', there are some
> other posting by op using various names that i do not recall.
> 
> if you look at my post;
> 
>   Message-ID: <52978392.7040...@bellsouth.net>
>   Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:55:30 -0600
>   From: g 
> 
> you will see where i am breaking down headers to show difference
> between _broken_ and _non_-_broken_ post.
> 
> because children have nothing better to do, i do believe that ap
> may be playing a game to see how long he can keep posting his
> troll game and how many will reply until repliers get tired of
> his troll game.
> 
> children from India and Sri Lanka have a very odd sense of humor
> and like to play games with people from "foreign" countries,
> because as foreigners, we think and talk funny.
> 
> not that i have my "pesticide" filter set, i will not be seeing
> any more post from the childish monkey. :=)
> 
> i hope others follow suite and stop replying to his post.
> 
> i ran a search for him posting on other list and i was right
> about his trolling other linux list.
> 
> "ap" is just one of the names he uses. i do not recall the other
> others he has used, but they all end up showing that he actually
> is trolling. and, i would not doubt that he is an oos user.
> 
> 
> 

Dear Grand Father g ;) please don't be so angry towards the poor
'Indians' 'Sri Lankans' etc. Dear g, did they teach you not to be a
racist since groupism is bad, very bad but unfortunately some cultures,
religions promote it & thus create lots of sufferings & conflicts.  They
instill it in the human from the very childhood itself thus making it
very difficult to eradicate. In the olden times when you 'might' be
having 'some education', Racism & Groupism was not a Tabu in the White
World but slowly as the world intermixed, it was found not to be a very
humane idea.

Is it possible, you are from Australia or maybe you have some friends,
relatives there with whom you interact a lot? Just curious...

Not sure about 'The Foreigners' but you do think & talk funny, which
does not seem very funny though.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Robert Holtzman  wrote:

> What you wrote has nothing to do with what you quoted.

The OP has known to me now...Its over but my mean to say was that some
people like "g" (who are without names), actually extend it to
increase the flame of war.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sun, Dec 01, 2013 at 02:43:50PM +0530, AP wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:40 AM, David  wrote:
> 
> > Ya'll have seen the AP is gone yet the thread goes on and on?  :-)
> 
> Because the name "g" is mental deficient.

What you wrote has nothing to do with what you quoted.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 1:40 AM, David  wrote:

> Ya'll have seen the AP is gone yet the thread goes on and on?  :-)

Because the name "g" is mental deficient.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[poma]

On 29.11.2013 21:10, David wrote:

> Ya'll have seen the AP is gone yet the thread goes on and on?  :-)

LoL!
Bee awesome.:!


poma


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[David]

On 11/29/2013 2:35 PM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
> On 29/11/13 14:18, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>> Continually asking questions that can be answered with a simple web
>> search qualifies as trolling, especially when he's been repeatedly
>> admonished about it. He also is polluting at least 2 other lists
>> asking the same sort of questions. He's posted under more than one name
>> and from more than one address. Yeah, he definitely qualifies as a
>> troll. Either that or he's a mental deficient.
>>
>> -
>> Bob Holtzman
> 
> I don't know about deficient but it certainly appears to be a mental
> aberration of some kind and this thread probably provides the
> recognition he was looking for.
> 
> I filtered it to "junk" after the second or third message but the
> responses keep coming along.
> 
> Bob
> 


Ya'll have seen the AP is gone yet the thread goes on and on?  :-)

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

hello bob,

On 11/29/2013 01:35 PM, Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA wrote:
<>


I don't know about deficient but it certainly appears to be a mental
aberration of some kind and this thread probably provides the
recognition he was looking for.


you are 100% dead on.

as i said in another post, 'ap' is playing games that his sick
mind needs.

it has to do with his existence and needing to be recognized,
which, i believe has to do with his ethnic heritage.


I filtered it to "junk" after the second or third message but the
responses keep coming along.


it took me a  little longer to trash can him. it now looks like
i will need to add the 2 "Subject:" that he is posting to.


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in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA]

On 29/11/13 14:18, Robert Holtzman wrote:

Continually asking questions that can be answered with a simple web
search qualifies as trolling, especially when he's been repeatedly
admonished about it. He also is polluting at least 2 other lists
asking the same sort of questions. He's posted under more than one name
and from more than one address. Yeah, he definitely qualifies as a
troll. Either that or he's a mental deficient.

-
Bob Holtzman


I don't know about deficient but it certainly appears to be a mental 
aberration of some kind and this thread probably provides the 
recognition he was looking for.


I filtered it to "junk" after the second or third message but the 
responses keep coming along.


Bob

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Robert Holtzman]

On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 01:32:11AM +1030, Tim wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, g sent:
> > let out one point.
> > 
> > if you will note;
> >
> >   X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer
> > 
> > is also a thread breaker. 
> 
> I think that one may just be due to a bad webmail client.  Some of them
> are just plain awful, in a plethora of ways.
> 
> He has posted from at least three other addresses, in the past, which
> worked properly.  Just the gmx.com one that goes bad.  I can't say that
> I remember noticing any behaviour that indicated he was trolling.
> Though he seems to do quite a bit of commuting, between the chemistry
> departments of two universities in Britain and France.  ;-)

Continually asking questions that can be answered with a simple web
search qualifies as trolling, especially when he's been repeatedly
admonished about it. He also is polluting at least 2 other lists 
asking the same sort of questions. He's posted under more than one name
and from more than one address. Yeah, he definitely qualifies as a
troll. Either that or he's a mental deficient.

- 
Bob Holtzman
Your mail is being read by tight lipped 
NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor 
Strangelove 
Key ID 8D549279


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

hello tim,

On 11/29/2013 09:02 AM, Tim wrote:
<>


He has posted from at least three other addresses, in the past,
which worked properly.  Just the gmx.com one that goes bad.


true.

> I can't say that I remember noticing any behaviour that indicated
> he was trolling.

nor i.

i was just commenting that gmx.com is _is_also_a_thread_breaker_.

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tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, g sent:
> let out one point.
> 
> if you will note;
>
>   X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer
> 
> is also a thread breaker. 

I think that one may just be due to a bad webmail client.  Some of them
are just plain awful, in a plethora of ways.

He has posted from at least three other addresses, in the past, which
worked properly.  Just the gmx.com one that goes bad.  I can't say that
I remember noticing any behaviour that indicated he was trolling.
Though he seems to do quite a bit of commuting, between the chemistry
departments of two universities in Britain and France.  ;-)

-- 
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Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:05 AM, Garry T. Williams  wrote:

> As to why this guy among all the others here is posting broken
> messages, I am betting g is correct.

Man, you bet without any guarantee! There seems no logic. Asking
questions and gaining from user's experiences counts, no more a
troll!!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

*oops*
let out one point.

if you will note;

 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:18:08 +0100
 From: "Patrick Dupre" 
 Message-ID: <20131127171808.119...@gmx.com>
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 Subject: RE: evince

 X-Mailer: GMX.com Web Mailer

is also a thread breaker.


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g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/28/2013 06:22 PM, Tim wrote:

Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, Ian Malone sent:

It turns out if you use the 'edit subject' option gmail drops the
references and in-reply-to (even if you don't actually edit the
subject).


I didn't even know how you would do that with gmail (nor do I
particularly care), though I eventually found that option after

> hearing it mentioned by name.  But every (*) way that I could
> obviously reply to a message through their interface, worked
> properly.

evidently Ian Malone found how to do it, because if you will notice,
his post that you are replying to did not thread.

what is shown by his header and the rest of the thread breakers are
same for the first part of "DKIM-Signature:"

just how Ian did such, i do not know either, nor do i care to see
him post such information as it could lend to many others breaking
threads.


* When using webmail interfaces, there's usually a "reply" button

<>

So I concur with the conclusion that it's being done on purpose, to

> be annoying.

i fully agree on above, and next.


If the perpetrator actually wants to participate in the mailing list
properly, then reply properly.  I'll be avoiding those nuisance

> mangled replies in future.

again, i fully agree with you on that point, but i doubt that 'ap'
actually wants help as he would rather play games and rack up points
as i suggest in following...

=+=+=
if you look at my post;

   Message-ID: <52978392.7040...@bellsouth.net>
   Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:55:30 -0600
   From: g 
   Subject: Re: is something wrong with email server?

you will see where i am breaking down headers to show difference
between _broken_ and _non_-_broken_ post.

because children have nothing better to do, i do believe that ap
may be playing a game to see how long he can keep posting his
troll game and how many will reply until repliers get tired of
his troll game.

children from India and Sri Lanka have a very odd sense of humor
and like to play games with people from "foreign" countries,
because as foreigners, we think and talk funny.

not that i have my "pesticide" filter set, i will not be seeing
any more post from the childish monkey. :=)

i hope others follow suite and stop replying to his post.

i ran a search for him posting on other list and i was right
about his trolling other linux list.

"ap" is just one of the names he uses. i do not recall the other
others he has used, but they all end up showing that he actually
is trolling. and, i would not doubt that he is an oos user.
=+=+=

once again, i close,,,

*metaxa. opa.*

have fun you all...

((GBWG))

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tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, Ian Malone sent:
> It turns out if you use the 'edit subject' option gmail drops the
> references and in-reply-to (even if you don't actually edit the
> subject). 

I didn't even know how you would do that with gmail (nor do I
particularly care), though I eventually found that option after hearing
it mentioned by name.  But every (*) way that I could obviously reply to
a message through their interface, worked properly.

* When using webmail interfaces, there's usually a "reply" button
somewhere when you're reading a message.  Or, one can click on the
subject line in the message list, or the message that you're reading,
and that will begin a reply to it.  All of those sorts of things work.
Even some standalone mail clients work in all those ways.

But, generally, with any type of mail client, if you click on an email
address, you just create a new message to that address, not a reply
(nothing is quoted, and there's no reply-management threading headers).

I don't think one could accidentally use that (edit subject) replying
technique, it's highly convoluted to get to it.  Any newbie who didn't
quite know how to do email would have found one of the far more obvious
ways to reply, and used them.  And I certainly don't see any reason why
someone would do it ("edit subject" replying), unless they actually were
intending to change the subject line (which we've seen no evidence of).
So I concur with the conclusion that it's being done on purpose, to be
annoying.

If the perpetrator actually wants to participate in the mailing list
properly, then reply properly.  I'll be avoiding those nuisance mangled
replies in future.

-- 
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Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/28/2013 02:35 PM, Garry T. Williams wrote:


Without the proper headers, correct threading is impossible.  My
client approximates it.


this is true.


Your client is doing the same thing -- approximating threading.


it may well be true and is why i asked david to post what settings
he has in "View > Sort by" settings


As to why this guy among all the others here is posting broken
messages, I am betting g is correct.


thank you. if it where not for my 'chemo brain', there are some
other posting by op using various names that i do not recall.

if you look at my post;

  Message-ID: <52978392.7040...@bellsouth.net>
  Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:55:30 -0600
  From: g 

you will see where i am breaking down headers to show difference
between _broken_ and _non_-_broken_ post.

because children have nothing better to do, i do believe that ap
may be playing a game to see how long he can keep posting his
troll game and how many will reply until repliers get tired of
his troll game.

children from India and Sri Lanka have a very odd sense of humor
and like to play games with people from "foreign" countries,
because as foreigners, we think and talk funny.

not that i have my "pesticide" filter set, i will not be seeing
any more post from the childish monkey. :=)

i hope others follow suite and stop replying to his post.

i ran a search for him posting on other list and i was right
about his trolling other linux list.

"ap" is just one of the names he uses. i do not recall the other
others he has used, but they all end up showing that he actually
is trolling. and, i would not doubt that he is an oos user.



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in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Garry T. Williams]

On 11-27-13 23:15:12 David wrote:
> You are searching for errors? Perhaps I said that incorrectly. AP's
> messages, and those of everyone that I have seen that have replied
> to his original post, thread correctly. For me.

This is a function of the mail reader client.  I use Kmail and this
list is in a separate directory from others and I set the "Message
Aggregation Mode" for that folder to "Perfect, by References and by
Subject".  This makes it /appear/ that AP's messages are threading
properly.  But it's an illusion.  They are threaded by Subject and by
date/time.  I see his replies to one poster under another because of
this.

Without the proper headers, correct threading is impossible.  My
client approximates it.

Your client is doing the same thing -- approximating threading.

As to why this guy among all the others here is posting broken
messages, I am betting g is correct.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Ian Malone  wrote:

> Deliberate or not, it was at least interesting. If using a separate
> client it can be quite easy, but that normally leaves a more apparent

This mail really did the exact the same break of thread and appears in
my Inbox as a separate mail, no clue of "why".
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 5:50 AM, Tim  wrote:

> And the headers are still missing.

> What happens if you don't block scripting while you're doing this?
> Enable it before you hit reply, type your reply, then send it.

Scripting!! There is no additional add-on installed in Opera!!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 10:31 AM, poma  wrote:

> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg01470.html
> This dude is obviously a spammer, and for you dgboles it seems to be a
> rather enjoyable.
> Good to know.

So what? You can ask in different places to know the experiences and
knowledge of different communities? I wonder on your thinking!!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Ian Malone]

On 28 November 2013 09:29, Tim  wrote:
> Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, Roger sent:
>> I haven't been following this discussion thread closely of late but
>> would like to understand how and what emails, clients, headers, gmail
>> and faults or not with browsers has to do with  "Why some say "rpm
>> hell". I seem to have missed a step.
>
> The thread diverged, and nobody changed the subject line.  I think it
> just petered out with an explanation of what "RPM hell" was, and how
> it's not unique to RPM.
>
> If your mail client does threading, you could collapse this thread, and
> walk back up its heritage until it split off.  And you could follow just
> the original thread, keeping this tangent hidden out of the way.
>
> You can't do that when someone stuffs up the threading headers.  All the
> replies just get thrown in a mess on the floor.
>
> I can't think how the problem poster is doing this, other than by being
> deliberately annoying.
>

Deliberate or not, it was at least interesting. If using a separate
client it can be quite easy, but that normally leaves a more apparent
signature in the header showing it's been received by smtp or similar.
The problem is that however it's done this is apparently accomplished
in just the gmail web interface. (You could also I suppose, if really
trolling, compose each reply as a new mail, cutting and pasting,
hadn't really considered that possibility.)

It turns out if you use the 'edit subject' option gmail drops the
references and in-reply-to (even if you don't actually edit the
subject). Arguably this is exactly what you don't want to happen,
since you can't edit a subject to indicate something like 'solved' or
the that topic has drifted. Anyway, apologies, I've tried it in this
email to demonstrate. There may be other ways to accomplish it.

If AP is doing this unintentionally then you can avoid it by using the
'pop-out' option to get an pop-out window rather than edit subject
which gets the pop-out but also breaks references.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 28 November 2013, Roger sent:
> I haven't been following this discussion thread closely of late but 
> would like to understand how and what emails, clients, headers, gmail 
> and faults or not with browsers has to do with  "Why some say "rpm 
> hell". I seem to have missed a step.

The thread diverged, and nobody changed the subject line.  I think it
just petered out with an explanation of what "RPM hell" was, and how
it's not unique to RPM.

If your mail client does threading, you could collapse this thread, and
walk back up its heritage until it split off.  And you could follow just
the original thread, keeping this tangent hidden out of the way.

You can't do that when someone stuffs up the threading headers.  All the
replies just get thrown in a mess on the floor.

I can't think how the problem poster is doing this, other than by being
deliberately annoying.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, David sent:
> As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has no
> problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for me fall
> in the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.
> 
> So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
> stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)
> 
> Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work for
> most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it no
> longer works?   

My take on your response would be that you probably are not "threading"
messages, merely "sorting" by subject.  Which is an entirely different
thing.  There are a number of things wrong with that approach, chief in
my mind are that:

1. You cannot easily follow an on-going thread when someone changes the
subject line, yet it is still part of the same thread, even more so when
it happens more than once.  And, yes, changing the subject within a
thread is sensible in some cases (e.g. "solved" cases).  But mailing
list servers that bung in [list name] into the subject line are a
classic case of nuisance subject changes.

2. The sequence of replies to replies can't be accurately done without
using threading headers, sorting by subject and date doesn't do it.
This becomes important with protracted threads.

And I don't care whether *you* sort by threads, or not.  Nor care
whether you give a damn about threading.  What I do care about is when
people bugger up the ability for threading to work by using clients that
mangle the headers.

Or let's put it another way.  How long would it take you to get
seriously inconvenienced if another header was destroyed?  Such as all
messages on this list having no subject line, at all, never mind the
typical useless ones people write.  It doesn't take much to mess things
up.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Tim:
>> Yet, when I do that with gmail (reply to a message through the web
>> interface), it works with proper headers.

g:
> that is interesting.
> 
> you have not done so regarding this "Subject:".

Because I have a bit more respect for the list than sending a mass of
test emails through it when it's not needed.  ;-)  Brief summary:

I have logged into the gmail webpage, sent an email to an address.
Replied to that email, outside of gmail.  Replied to the reply, inside
of gmail (using their web interface).  And done more replies to replies.
Results; proper headers in all the messages.

I have used Evolution with IMAP to gmail.  Done the same sorts of tests
(sending messages, replying to replies).  Same results; proper headers.

That convinces me that gmail works properly, under normal circumstances.
And I see that other people using gmail on this list have proper
threading headers, too.

I'm not willing to bugger up my web browser with a pile of plug-ins to
see if that makes it worse, though.  And as brought up, it does look a
bit like trolling (asking silly questions, in numerous places, doing it
in an annoying fashion).  On the other hand, the original question
wasn't particularly laboured upon.  So, I dunno.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Ian Malone]

On 28 November 2013 04:15, David  wrote:
> On 11/27/2013 9:54 PM, g wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/27/2013 08:02 PM, David wrote:
>> <>
>>
>>> As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has
>>> no problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for
>>> me fall in the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.
>>
>> and you use "thread(s)", indicating possible plural?
>>
>> so just what do you have selected under;
>>
>> View > Sort by
>> and
>> View > Threads
>> ?
>
>
>
> You are searching for errors? Perhaps I said that incorrectly. AP's
> messages, and those of everyone that I have seen that have replied to
> his original post, thread correctly. For me.
>
> I said thread(s) because I have seen him, and others, post as he does,
> and I do not have ay problems with those posts. post before and his
> posts thread.
>

Great. For you. AP expressed an interest in this. As I've mentioned
some clients guess threading, you're using one of them. There is, and
has been for a very long time, a mechanism for doing it properly. It's
not some 'super complicated geek thing' it's one line of text that's
normally hidden that says which message it follows. Understandable to
anyone who understands English.


> Hmm...  Linux users, the ones that I called 'Geeks', (which was not
> meant as an insult) are the only computer users, that I know of, that

Some take it as an insult. Especially when it's used to push a lazy stereotype.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 10:15 PM, David wrote:

On 11/27/2013 9:54 PM, g wrote:

<<>>


so just what do you have selected under;

View > Sort by and View > Threads ?


You are searching for errors?


no.


Perhaps I said that incorrectly. AP's
messages, and those of everyone that I have seen that have replied
to his original post, thread correctly. For me.


great. so why do you not reply with above settings?

<>

As for me? I have Thunderbird set to 'thread' messages in folders
that Thunderbird (selected with filters) send to selected folders
This folder is only emails from Fedora Users and the emails ARE
THREADED.


bfd. you are not only one who filters for lists and various other
uses. filters are a basic part of good email clients.


And what I said, and what I meant, was that if *you* have a problem
with this... it appears to be your problem and not his.


it would be just _my_ problem if it where not for fact that _others_
are having same problem with op's post.

<>


Hmm...  Linux users, the ones that I called 'Geeks', (which was not
meant as an insult) are the only computer users, that I know of,
that will run one a simple process through nine different programs

> to do the same thing that one Linux program can do.  :-)

no. i would call them a 'newbie' or a 'dumb ass' if they are not
familiar with the 'one' program.


BTW. What is an "oossass"  ?


a wow64 user. ;=)


--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 11:01 PM, poma wrote:
<>


http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg01470.html
This dude is obviously a spammer, and for you dgboles it seems to

> be a rather enjoyable.

Good to know.


i believe i would call him a 'troller' more so than a 'spammer'.

any one interested, have a read of what he started at;

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg01280.html

iirc, he has hit list at mozilla, opensuse, ubuntu.

--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[David]

On 11/28/2013 12:01 AM, poma wrote:
> On 28.11.2013 03:02, David wrote:
> 
>> As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has no
>> problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for me fall in
>> the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.
>>
>> So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
>> stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)
>>
>> Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work for
>> most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it no longer
>> works?  
>>
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg01470.html
> This dude is obviously a spammer, and for you dgboles it seems to be a
> rather enjoyable.
> Good to know.
> 
> 
> poma
> 
> 


I am confused here 'poma'. You are calling me a spammer? Why?


-- 

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[poma]

On 28.11.2013 03:02, David wrote:

> As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has no
> problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for me fall in
> the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.
> 
> So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
> stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)
> 
> Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work for
> most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it no longer
> works?  
> 

http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/11/msg01470.html
This dude is obviously a spammer, and for you dgboles it seems to be a
rather enjoyable.
Good to know.


poma


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[David]

On 11/27/2013 9:54 PM, g wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/27/2013 08:02 PM, David wrote:
> <>
> 
>> As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has
>> no problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for
>> me fall in the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.
> 
> and you use "thread(s)", indicating possible plural?
> 
> so just what do you have selected under;
> 
> View > Sort by
> and
> View > Threads
> ?



You are searching for errors? Perhaps I said that incorrectly. AP's
messages, and those of everyone that I have seen that have replied to
his original post, thread correctly. For me.

I said thread(s) because I have seen him, and others, post as he does,
and I do not have ay problems with those posts. post before and his
posts thread.

As for me? I have Thunderbird set to 'thread' messages in folders that
Thunderbird (selected with filters) send to selected folders This folder
is only emails from Fedora Users and the emails ARE THREADED.

And what I said, and what I meant, was that if *you* have a problem with
this... it appears to be your problem and not his.


>> So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
>> stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)
> 
> better to be 'Linux geeks' than an "oossass", who is running wow64
> and using thunderbird 24.1.1. :=)
> 
>> Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work
>> for most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it
>> no longer works?  
> 
> see above.
> 
> 
> last, but not least, if you think linux users are geeks, just why
> are you, an "oossass", following a linux thread?
> 
> trying to learn how the better world lives? ((GBWG))
> 

Hmm...  Linux users, the ones that I called 'Geeks', (which was not
meant as an insult) are the only computer users, that I know of, that
will run one a simple process through nine different programs to do the
same thing that one Linux program can do.  :-)


BTW. What is an "oossass"  ?
-- 

  David
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 08:02 PM, David wrote:
<>


As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has

> no problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for
> me fall in the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.

and you use "thread(s)", indicating possible plural?

so just what do you have selected under;

View > Sort by
and
View > Threads
?


So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)


better to be 'Linux geeks' than an "oossass", who is running wow64
and using thunderbird 24.1.1. :=)


Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work
for most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it

> no longer works?  

see above.


last, but not least, if you think linux users are geeks, just why
are you, an "oossass", following a linux thread?

trying to learn how the better world lives? ((GBWG))

--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Roger]

I haven't been following this discussion thread closely of late but 
would like to understand how and what emails, clients, headers, gmail 
and faults or not with browsers has to do with  "Why some say "rpm 
hell". I seem to have missed a step.


Was the rpm issue resolved or explained. Isn't rpm a way Fedora gathers 
and loads updates and installs new apps?

Is the email discussion a change of direction or does this no longer matter?
Roger



I don't see any problems with your emails AP. I see the headers and
they follow the thread, for me, in Thunderbird. No matter which
browser you use.

*NOT*

if you look again, you will not see headers;

In-Reply-To:
or
References:



Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on
the Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.

it is not a fault of browser, it is a fault with gmail when using
web browser to reply to threaded post.

ap's header only contains;

   Message-ID:
   

where as tim's header is;

   Message-ID: <1385491466.5318.8.ca...@paralytic.lan.cameratim.com>
   Subject: Re: Why some say "rpm hell"
   From: Tim 
   To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
   Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:14:26 +1030
   In-Reply-To:
   
   References:
   

if you view header for this email, you will see that "References"

   Message-ID: <52963f8f.8090...@gmail.com>

added to;

   References:
   

therefore, i wonder if you are running your gmail account off-line
with an email client and now replying on-line thru a browser.





As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has no
problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for me fall in
the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.

So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)

Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work for
most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it no longer
works?  



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[David]

On 11/27/2013 5:30 PM, g wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/27/2013 12:53 PM, David wrote:
> <>
> 
> 
>> I don't see any problems with your emails AP. I see the headers and
>> they follow the thread, for me, in Thunderbird. No matter which
>> browser you use.
> 
> *NOT*
> 
> if you look again, you will not see headers;
> 
>In-Reply-To:
> or
>References:
> 
> 
>> Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
>> it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on
>> the Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.
> 
> it is not a fault of browser, it is a fault with gmail when using
> web browser to reply to threaded post.
> 
> ap's header only contains;
> 
>   Message-ID:
>   
> 
> where as tim's header is;
> 
>   Message-ID: <1385491466.5318.8.ca...@paralytic.lan.cameratim.com>
>   Subject: Re: Why some say "rpm hell"
>   From: Tim 
>   To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
>   Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:14:26 +1030
>   In-Reply-To:
>   
>   References:
>   
> 
> if you view header for this email, you will see that "References"
> 
>   Message-ID: <52963f8f.8090...@gmail.com>
> 
> added to;
> 
>   References:
>   
> 
> therefore, i wonder if you are running your gmail account off-line
> with an email client and now replying on-line thru a browser.
> 
> 



As I said... Me - The ordinary user that uses an Email Client has no
problems with what AP and Gmail is/are doing. His posts, for me fall in
the proper place in the thread(s) on this list.

So that means?? Maybe you 'Linux geeks' with your 'fancy Linux Geek
stuff' running have made this a problem? For you.  :-)

Linux (geeks) has/have a tendency to take simple things, that work for
most, and then those Linux Geeks take it to the point that it no longer
works?  

-- 

  David
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 06:20 PM, Tim wrote:

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, Ian Malone sent:

I'm wondering though if it's related to the fact your posts are
base64 encoded.


The method of encoding the message body really shouldn't affect
headers.


actually, the base64 is done by the "lists.fedoraproject.org"
server software.

only time that base64 does not occur is when a post has attachments,
such as enigmail signing, and one other that i do not recall.


--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 06:20 PM, Tim wrote:

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, g sent:

it is not a fault of browser, it is a fault with gmail when using
web browser to reply to threaded post.


Yet, when I do that with gmail (reply to a message through the web
interface), it works with proper headers.


that is interesting.

you have not done so regarding this "Subject:".

are you running 'pop' or 'imap'?

i will make this comment:

i sent ap instructions on how to download and upload email gmail
via thunderbird to see if his posting will thread with out breaking.

as yet, for some reason or other, he had not tried such.

there for, i wonder if he is not intentionally creating a new email
just so he can keep up what just _might_ be an 'internet trolling'
that he is seeing how long he can continue it.

with all of suggestions that have be replied and no change, i also
wonder if he is even bothering.

after all, there is no way that such can be proved.

other thoughts that cause me to wonder about *his "problems"*;

  just where is he sending from?
  header "Date:" is showing time correction of "+530",
  which indicates 'India' or 'Sri Lanka'.

therefore a question, just who is his isp? is something happening
due to his isp?

i think not because there have been other posters, on a different
list, from those two areas that used gmail and had no threading
problems.

all of which makes me wonder if this entire 'broken thread' is an
intent.

just thoughts...


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in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 06:20 PM, Tim wrote:

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, AP sent:

Well, I am replying from Opera browser right now.


And the headers are still missing.

What happens if you don't block scripting while you're doing this?
Enable it before you hit reply, type your reply, then send it.

My thinking reckons that if it still behaves oddly when you use an
unmodified browser,


how do we know that browser is unmodified? be it opera or firefox?


it's a gmail fault.


when others claim not to have problem?


I couldn't see any options in the gmail settings that might hide
such information.  You're not using one of those "private
browsing/incognito window" functions of the web browser?  It's
conceivable that gmail might take notice of such a thing, and obscure
some of the mail headers.  Not that it'd do you much good, since you
still have your own address in the reply, anyway.


why would google discriminate?

i am inclined to believe op is discriminating? ;=)

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tc.hago.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, Ian Malone sent:
> I'm wondering though if it's related to the fact your posts are
> base64 encoded.

The method of encoding the message body really shouldn't affect headers.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, g sent:
> it is not a fault of browser, it is a fault with gmail when using
> web browser to reply to threaded post. 

Yet, when I do that with gmail (reply to a message through the web
interface), it works with proper headers.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 27 November 2013, AP sent:
> Well, I am replying from Opera browser right now.

And the headers are still missing.

What happens if you don't block scripting while you're doing this?
Enable it before you hit reply, type your reply, then send it.

My thinking reckons that if it still behaves oddly when you use an
unmodified browser, it's a gmail fault.

I couldn't see any options in the gmail settings that might hide such
information.  You're not using one of those "private browsing/incognito
window" functions of the web browser?  It's conceivable that gmail might
take notice of such a thing, and obscure some of the mail headers.  Not
that it'd do you much good, since you still have your own address in the
reply, anyway.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Ian Malone]

On 27 November 2013 19:01, AP  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:23 AM, David  wrote:
>
>> Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
>> it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on the
>> Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.
>
> I wonder to think this but I never earlier noted all this aspects.
> What and why would a browser would do anything with the users'
> personal email settings...?

Lots of what the gmail interface does is done as Ajax (i.e. javascript
on the client). I don't know for sure but conceivably a firefox add-on
could alter its behaviour (we can rule that out if mails you sent from
opera aren't affected). What I think may be more likely is the
particular gmail interface or language settings you use are affecting
things. To get it addressed the gmail help forums would be the best
place. I'm wondering though if it's related to the fact your posts are
base64 encoded. I don't think that's normal for gmail.

Thunderbird and other clients do often thread by subject, to be able
to handle missing threading information in the headers. Of course that
breaks if the subject changes.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/27/2013 12:53 PM, David wrote:
<>



I don't see any problems with your emails AP. I see the headers and
they follow the thread, for me, in Thunderbird. No matter which
browser you use.


*NOT*

if you look again, you will not see headers;

   In-Reply-To:
or
   References:



Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on
the Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.


it is not a fault of browser, it is a fault with gmail when using
web browser to reply to threaded post.

ap's header only contains;

  Message-ID:
  

where as tim's header is;

  Message-ID: <1385491466.5318.8.ca...@paralytic.lan.cameratim.com>
  Subject: Re: Why some say "rpm hell"
  From: Tim 
  To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
  Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:14:26 +1030
  In-Reply-To:
  
  References:
  

if you view header for this email, you will see that "References"

  Message-ID: <52963f8f.8090...@gmail.com>

added to;

  References:
  

therefore, i wonder if you are running your gmail account off-line
with an email client and now replying on-line thru a browser.


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peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:23 AM, David  wrote:

> Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
> it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on the
> Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.

I wonder to think this but I never earlier noted all this aspects.
What and why would a browser would do anything with the users'
personal email settings...?
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:23 AM, David  wrote:

> https://www.box.com/shared/78msc32ktf0k6oed51wq

Almost everything is technical
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[David]

On 11/27/2013 11:59 AM, AP wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Tim  wrote:
> 
>> It's still missing the headers.  Give the other browser a try, and we'll
>> see if that change things.  Likewise, you could try changing some of the
>> privacy settings.
> 
> Well, I am replying from Opera browser right now.
> 
>> There's little point in trying to be extremely
>> private with email on a mailing list, you're posting in public with your
>> email address.  Perhaps they give you choices for certain websites
>> against others (I'm only familiar with NoScript - it does let you
>> customise it).
> 
> Well, my target is not to be private with email but only to be secured
> with Malware during online web surfing and nothing more. Even when I
> know that it is Linux, but using those addo-ons just block the
> malwares and viruses (if), they guarantee that
> 



Excuse me for butting in but...   :-)

I don't see any problems with your emails AP. I see the headers and they
follow the thread, for me, in Thunderbird. No matter which browser you use.

Frankly I find it hard to comprehend just how the browser and any of
it's settings, would have any interaction with an email written on the
Gmail Web interface, or any email interface.

I've linked 1 file to this email:
* AP.txt (5.8 KB) hosted on Box:
https://www.box.com/shared/78msc32ktf0k6oed51wq


-- 

  David


bin8f1INRC1UO.bin
Description: Binary data
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Ian Malone  wrote:

> I think this is the right attitude, adblock, noscript etc. are things
> you use to protect you online, not for protection of your emails. E.g.
> it's your gmail account rather than the emails you're sending with it
> that you are trying to protect in this situation. And using linux
> doesn't give you any protection against things like
> cross-site-scripting attacks or other on-line tricks even if it is
> harder against classic malware, so it's still sensible to take care
> out there.

Oh well.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Ian Malone]

On 27 November 2013 16:59, AP  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Tim  wrote:
>
>> It's still missing the headers.  Give the other browser a try, and we'll
>> see if that change things.  Likewise, you could try changing some of the
>> privacy settings.
>
> Well, I am replying from Opera browser right now.
>
>> There's little point in trying to be extremely
>> private with email on a mailing list, you're posting in public with your
>> email address.  Perhaps they give you choices for certain websites
>> against others (I'm only familiar with NoScript - it does let you
>> customise it).
>
> Well, my target is not to be private with email but only to be secured
> with Malware during online web surfing and nothing more. Even when I
> know that it is Linux, but using those addo-ons just block the
> malwares and viruses (if), they guarantee that

I think this is the right attitude, adblock, noscript etc. are things
you use to protect you online, not for protection of your emails. E.g.
it's your gmail account rather than the emails you're sending with it
that you are trying to protect in this situation. And using linux
doesn't give you any protection against things like
cross-site-scripting attacks or other on-line tricks even if it is
harder against classic malware, so it's still sensible to take care
out there.

-- 
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Tim  wrote:

> It's still missing the headers.  Give the other browser a try, and we'll
> see if that change things.  Likewise, you could try changing some of the
> privacy settings.

Well, I am replying from Opera browser right now.

> There's little point in trying to be extremely
> private with email on a mailing list, you're posting in public with your
> email address.  Perhaps they give you choices for certain websites
> against others (I'm only familiar with NoScript - it does let you
> customise it).

Well, my target is not to be private with email but only to be secured
with Malware during online web surfing and nothing more. Even when I
know that it is Linux, but using those addo-ons just block the
malwares and viruses (if), they guarantee that
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 26 November 2013, AP sent:
> I am using extra privacy options in the Firefox but not in Opera.
> Sometimes I use Opera also and other times Firefox. In Firefox, I am
> using the addons like NoScript, AdBlock Plus and Better Privacy. 

It's still missing the headers.  Give the other browser a try, and we'll
see if that change things.  Likewise, you could try changing some of the
privacy settings.  There's little point in trying to be extremely
private with email on a mailing list, you're posting in public with your
email address.  Perhaps they give you choices for certain websites
against others (I'm only familiar with NoScript - it does let you
customise it).

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Ian Malone  wrote:

> (I think, google do tend to change things).

Yes.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Ian Malone]

On 26 November 2013 15:41, AP  wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim  wrote:
>
>> Are you running some extra privacy options in your browser or gmail?
>> Are you actually using the "reply" function, or are you mistakenly
>> forwarding?
>
> I am using extra privacy options in the Firefox but not in Opera.
> Sometimes I use Opera also and other times Firefox. In Firefox, I am
> using the addons like NoScript, AdBlock Plus and Better Privacy. Yes,
> on the bottom of each mail I click "reply" to reply to an email but
> not the option of "forwarding".
>

FWIW I normally use the gmail web interface in firefox and last time I
checked my mails did have references and in-reply-to. There may be
differences between the different localised interfaces. I'm using
EN_GB (I think, google do tend to change things).

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Tim  wrote:

> Are you running some extra privacy options in your browser or gmail?
> Are you actually using the "reply" function, or are you mistakenly
> forwarding?

I am using extra privacy options in the Firefox but not in Opera.
Sometimes I use Opera also and other times Firefox. In Firefox, I am
using the addons like NoScript, AdBlock Plus and Better Privacy. Yes,
on the bottom of each mail I click "reply" to reply to an email but
not the option of "forwarding".

Thanks.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Tim:
>> What happens when you break mail, in one way or another:  Your
>> replies are not seen with the messages that they're related to.  
>> They get missed, they get overlooked.  It gets very hard to follow
>> an ongoing thread...

AP:
> Well, I agree but I simply reply in Firefox and by typing
> www.gmail.com and nothing else!! This is the only way I do. 

Having a look at some other posters using gmail, their messages have the
requisite in-reply-to and references headers, but neither of yours do.
Though I don't know if they're replying through the gmail web interface,
or using a real mail client connecting to gmail (unless there's an
x-mailer header, not all mail clients put one in).  

I know that, in the past, if I've used Evolution to interface with
gmail, or used Firefox with their web interface, it had the proper sets
of threading headers either way.  And recent tests done, just now, using
a web browser and normal mail client behave the same.

Are you running some extra privacy options in your browser or gmail?
Are you actually using the "reply" function, or are you mistakenly
forwarding?

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:54 AM, Tim  wrote:

> What happens when you break mail, in one way or another:  Your replies
> are not seen with the messages that they're related to.  They get
> missed, they get overlooked.  It gets very hard to follow an ongoing
> thread when all the messages in that thread are scattered randomly
> amongst hundreds of other messages, especially when it's important to be
> able to follow the progress of something along the thread (and no,
> quoting the entire thread in each message is not the answer).  Some
> helpers will give up helping after finding it a pain to follow an
> prolonged on-going conversation.  Some will give up immediately.  And if
> this converstion was on traditional usenet, rather than an email list,
> you'd be needing flameproof pants by now.  ;-)

Well, I agree but I simply reply in Firefox and by typing
www.gmail.com and nothing else!! This is the only way I do. Once I
log-in, I don't log-out ever (unless I have to check other gmail
account also, which I rarely use) and even if I have to use PC in
two-three days, I get directly Inbox because I didn't log out earlier!
I know since I am using Linux and with the addons like No Script, this
all is secured even when I am not logged out. But really I never
thought such technical aspects which are written above!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Tim:
>> It doesn't require gmail to get messages threaded.  Threading is done by
>> the message headers, each message has its own message ID, each reply has
>> another header saying which message ID it's in reply to, and there's
>> another header listing all the message IDs that belong in the same
>> thread.
>>
>> The last one (in-reply-to) is used by mail clients to group all messages
>> in a thread together.  The middle one (references) is used to thread
>> them all together in the right order.

Some corrections.  The first paragraph described the in-reply to headers
in the *middle*, and the references headers *last*.

>> Any mail client can do this.  Any mail client can break this, and some
>> do, by not not adding in-reply-to headers, and not adding and
>> maintaining the references header.  When they do that, they bugger it up
>> for everyone else, as the data has been lost.

AP:
> Thanks for taking time to explain this, I am re-reading to fully grasp it.

Unfortunately, your mail client is one of those that stuffs up
threading.  There was no in-reply-to, nor a references header, in your
email.  Not only has it not inserted them, it's removed the references
headers that were already there (written by the other replies).  This
makes it impossible for other clients to view your message in context
with other messages.

I expected better of gmail.  Do you use gmail as a collection point,
then write your replies with something else?

Compliant mail clients *should* include those headers, perhaps even
*must*, but it's been years since I've looked at mail RFCs (they're
inserted when you reply).  It doesn't matter whether *you* want
threading in your client, or not.  *That* is a choice for how you
display your mail.  The threading headers are for everyone else to be
able to use.

What happens when you break mail, in one way or another:  Your replies
are not seen with the messages that they're related to.  They get
missed, they get overlooked.  It gets very hard to follow an ongoing
thread when all the messages in that thread are scattered randomly
amongst hundreds of other messages, especially when it's important to be
able to follow the progress of something along the thread (and no,
quoting the entire thread in each message is not the answer).  Some
helpers will give up helping after finding it a pain to follow an
prolonged on-going conversation.  Some will give up immediately.  And if
this converstion was on traditional usenet, rather than an email list,
you'd be needing flameproof pants by now.  ;-)

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Tim  wrote:

> To see messages in their properly threaded order, one needs to use a
> mail client that isn't broken in that regard (Evolution, Thunderbird,
> and many others work), and pick the option that threads messages in the
> message list window.
>


I agree with all of this, however note that for threading to work properly
*all* contributors to a thread should use properly threading MUAs.
Unfortunately on this list (I don't mean on this specific thread) there
seems to be a small number of people who are unable to grasp this. Thus one
occasionally sees posts that are semantically part of a single thread but
in fact appear in multiple threads from the point of view of even correctly
configured readers. Nothing much to be done about it really, other than
reminding them from time to time.

poc
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Re: OT- Getting Firefox GMail Old Compose (for a while) - Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.]

On 11/23/2013 09:13 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:


On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Fulko Hew > wrote:


Can you post some instructions ? (for getting GMail usable again
after "New Compose")


Get UAControl from here:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/uacontrol/

Once installed, Go to Tools->UAControl Options
Click "add new site", type as site mail.google.com 


and as user-agent:
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0)

That will give you Old Compose

Explanation:
The Mail.google.com  coders couldn't get the 
"New Compose" to work on IE8, so if Google detects you're using IE8 on 
GMail, it gives you the "Old Compose".


UAControl fakes the user agent ONLY for the domains you specify (in 
this case, mail.google.com ).


It will, of course, only work for as long as google keeps supporting 
IE8 for GMail, which likely won't be for very long, as they tend to 
follow Microsoft in their planned obsolescence cycles. :-(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

...but in the meantime it's a good stopgap solution.

The real solution will be for Google to permanently enable old compose 
as an option for those of us who prefer it.

There's a petition here:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/128/981/668/google-gmail-please-go-back-to-the-old-version-of-compose-email/

Sadly only 700 signatures so far...

If History is any indication, Google engineers in their Ivory Towers 
don't give a rat's *ss about what we think... they think they know 
better...


Oh, and you asked about the other part of the solution, it's the 
Firefox Stylish extension, grab it from here:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/stylish/

It lets you use any of the user developed styles on userstyles.org 
, including these for GMail:

http://userstyles.org/styles/browse?search_terms=gmail

My personal preference (which some surely might find odd but it suits 
my work style and my eyes are pleased with it) is the black 
background, green text "terminal" theme (that used to be great as 
developed by Google, until they turned it fugly with white-on-black 
text, and white background on compose),

http://userstyles.org/styles/71798/gmail-terminal-all-black-background

It looks like this: :)
pic.twitter.com/PXMbZ8hU9A 

Hope this helps you, and some other Fedora users...

FC

--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a 
revolutionary act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un 
Acto Revolucionario

- George Orwell


Wow!some of those look great! And while I tend to stick to my tried 
& true Thunderbird for emailing.my younger brother is the "web mail 
King"!...he's gonna love this info! thanks so much!!



EGO II
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Beartooth  wrote:

> Say you want Opera on an old machine that you haven't used for
> some time. You go to a browser it does have, but for some reason the
> default opera.com offers isn't what you want. You find what you do want,
> and opera.com asks whether you want the x86 or the 64-wide version.

> You don't happen to remember which one this machine is, nor an
> easy way to check (like uname -a). So you just download one.

> Rpm -ivh produces a bramble patch.

> Being by now an old hand, you notice that all the missing
> dependencies it announces are 64s. So you abort the install, go back to
> opera.com, and get the .rpm for a 32-bit machine. That works, slick as a
> whistle.

> In this example you have not solved the dependency hell. You have
> dodged it, partly by dumb luck (spotting those 64s), and partly by having
> enough general experience to recognize what they mean.

> A beginner who had gotten into it might easily've worked
> herself through the brambles into an electronic lake of burning brimstone
> before she hollered for help.

Well, the issues gets generated when an external rpm is installed. But
I guess the most common apps, e.g., Opera and the common apps must be
there in the repos. Only some particular rpms which are not so common
(or required for specific purpose(s)), can possibly create that
problem. But in my view, end users won't use those typical apps which
are not bundled in the DVD!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Tim  wrote:

> It doesn't require gmail to get messages threaded.  Threading is done by
> the message headers, each message has its own message ID, each reply has
> another header saying which message ID it's in reply to, and there's
> another header listing all the message IDs that belong in the same
> thread.

> The last one (in-reply-to) is used by mail clients to group all messages
> in a thread together.  The middle one (references) is used to thread
> them all together in the right order.

> Any mail client can do this.  Any mail client can break this, and some
> do, by not not adding in-reply-to headers, and not adding and
> maintaining the references header.  When they do that, they bugger it up
> for everyone else, as the data has been lost.

> Message threading is NOT done by whatever text is written in the subject
> line.  Though some broken clients think so.  Some helpful clients will
> try to use it, as well as threading headers, to fit in orphaned messages
> into a thread (broken by other crappy clients), or to break apart a new
> thread out of the middle of an existing one (when the subject line
> changed).  The latter not being a particularly good idea, either.

> To see messages in their properly threaded order, one needs to use a
> mail client that isn't broken in that regard (Evolution, Thunderbird,
> and many others work), and pick the option that threads messages in the
> message list window.

> Conversely, one can unpick that option, and sort messages via some other
> criteria - such as by "date," making a mess of the order of messages
> (hint - the generational order of which message came first, is done by
> what's a reply to what, not the date that it was read or written, dates
> are coincidental, not relational).

Thanks for taking time to explain this, I am re-reading to fully grasp it.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 23 November 2013, g sent:
> i have a gmail account for other purposes that i pull in emails
> from because some of them i want to reply to and save.
> 
> also, i found that as only way to maintain threads.
> 
> your postings thread and i am wondering you would post a new
> "Subject:" relating to how you are using a gmail account and
> still maintain threading. 

That doesn't scan so well, especially the last paragraph, trying to
understand what you wrote.

It doesn't require gmail to get messages threaded.  Threading is done by
the message headers, each message has its own message ID, each reply has
another header saying which message ID it's in reply to, and there's
another header listing all the message IDs that belong in the same
thread.

The last one (in-reply-to) is used by mail clients to group all messages
in a thread together.  The middle one (references) is used to thread
them all together in the right order.

Any mail client can do this.  Any mail client can break this, and some
do, by not not adding in-reply-to headers, and not adding and
maintaining the references header.  When they do that, they bugger it up
for everyone else, as the data has been lost.

Message threading is NOT done by whatever text is written in the subject
line.  Though some broken clients think so.  Some helpful clients will
try to use it, as well as threading headers, to fit in orphaned messages
into a thread (broken by other crappy clients), or to break apart a new
thread out of the middle of an existing one (when the subject line
changed).  The latter not being a particularly good idea, either.

To see messages in their properly threaded order, one needs to use a
mail client that isn't broken in that regard (Evolution, Thunderbird,
and many others work), and pick the option that threads messages in the
message list window.

Conversely, one can unpick that option, and sort messages via some other
criteria - such as by "date," making a mess of the order of messages
(hint - the generational order of which message came first, is done by
what's a reply to what, not the date that it was read or written, dates
are coincidental, not relational).

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.8.13-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon May 13 13:36:17 UTC 2013 x86_64

All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.

George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Beartooth]

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:01:24 +, Tethys wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Greg Woods  wrote:
> 
>>  []so "rpm hell" is largely a thing of the past.
> 
> Sort of. RPM was a victim of its own success. Because Red Hat was the
> leading distribution, it was the one that attracted the largest number
> of third party RPMs, and that's what caused the dependency problems that
> came to be known as RPM hell. Also, people would mix RPMs from Red Hat,
> SuSE and other distributions and just expect them to work (which largely
> they didn't). That problem still exists today, exactly the same as it
> does for dpkg based distributions (and always has done). It's just that
> the RPM and dkpg repositories these days have larger coverage of the
> free software landscape, so the dependencies are more likely to be in
> the default repo, and there are fewer third party packages these days,
> as well as fewer RPM based distributions to muddy the waters.

It can still happen in another way, to those who use free but 
proprietary apps. 

Say you want Opera on an old machine that you haven't used for 
some time. You go to a browser it does have, but for some reason the 
default opera.com offers isn't what you want. You find what you do want, 
and opera.com asks whether you want the x86 or the 64-wide version.

You don't happen to remember which one this machine is, nor an 
easy way to check (like uname -a). So you just download one. 

Rpm -ivh produces a bramble patch. 

Being by now an old hand, you notice that all the missing 
dependencies it announces are 64s. So you abort the install, go back to 
opera.com, and get the .rpm for a 32-bit machine. That works, slick as a 
whistle. 

In this example you have not solved the dependency hell. You have 
dodged it, partly by dumb luck (spotting those 64s), and partly by having 
enough general experience to recognize what they mean.

A beginner who had gotten into it might easily've worked 
herself through the brambles into an electronic lake of burning brimstone 
before she hollered for help.
-- 
Beartooth Staffwright, Neo-Redneck Not Quite Clueless Power User
Remember I have precious (very precious!) little idea where up is.


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 9:02 PM, g  wrote:

> On 11/23/2013 01:59 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:

> your postings thread and i am wondering you would post a new
> "Subject:" relating to how you are using a gmail account and
> still maintain threading.

No, not like that. Read the following two lines he wrote:


"Ok, enough drifting off topic from this side. ;)"  and

"Just posted it in a separate thread to stop hijacking this one. :)"

If he might have wished to enlarge the same thread, he should have
done it by explaining each and every point he mentioned but he wrote
that!! Further it is Saturday today and tomorrow Sunday. May be some
one is having fun in the week ends and then may start a new thread on
Monday...

I cannot finalize such things in such a short time and cannot conclude
somebody's ways of thinking so easily.It is not necessarily true
what we think is always right.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/23/2013 01:59 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
<>


GMail serves me (and I guess most other people) because:


i have a gmail account for other purposes that i pull in emails
from because some of them i want to reply to and save.

also, i found that as only way to maintain threads.

your postings thread and i am wondering you would post a new
"Subject:" relating to how you are using a gmail account and
still maintain threading.

thank you.

--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/23/2013 01:35 AM, AP wrote:

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Paul W. Frields
 wrote:


I think "g" was trying to make peace and you may have
misunderstood his comments.  Please, let's be polite to each other
and not insulting.


My intention was not to handle someone with gloves


continue with such an attitude and you will find your post will
go unanswered.


but I don't understand why people consider it being a troll type
mail.


i believe you are still taking offense to something that really
does not read as such.


Well, I find the reason. It happens that when you are new to Linux,
you often ask something which is pretty easy or might have been asked
earlier.


being new to linux is not a justifiable excuse or reason.


So what?


another bad attitude to take.


This query must have been so common that I came to know it should

> not be asked but I had asked it actually.

had you run a web search first, you would have found plenty of
answers to your question.

as another poster stated, this thread has gotten extensively broken
and way off topic. therefore, this is last commenting i will make
in regard to your insecurity.

--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/22/2013 02:41 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
<>


Pot meet kettle.


by considering source, there is no pot or kettle.


--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

On 11/22/2013 01:40 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote:
<>


I think "g" was trying to make peace and you may have misunderstood
his comments.


this is true.

> Please, let's be polite to each other and not insulting.

+1 on polite.

as for finding his comments as impolite or insulting, i just consider
source and let it go at that.

--

peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.

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Re: OT- Getting Firefox GMail Old Compose (for a while) - Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fulko Hew]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:

>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Fulko Hew  wrote:
>
>> Can you post some instructions ? (for getting GMail usable again after
>> "New Compose")
>>
>
... snip ...


> That will give you Old Compose
>

THANK YOU!
This has: saved my sanity, fixed my carpel tunnel, and given me back at
least 5 minutes of each day
that I was recently wasting on the extra mouse clicks and movements that
were now needed to accomplish
the simplest of tasks.

... snip ...

...but in the meantime it's a good stopgap solution.
>

I'll take any form of relief from that new UI, even if its only for a few
days.
When the first introduced it, I tried it for a few minutes only to conclude
how
user un-friendly it was. So I immediately turned it off.  Unfortunately
when they
turned it on permanently a few months ago, my productivity dropped, and
I was ... extremely frustrated.


> The real solution will be for Google to permanently enable old compose as
> an option for those of us who prefer it.
> There's a petition here:
>
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/128/981/668/google-gmail-please-go-back-to-the-old-version-of-compose-email/
>
> Sadly only 700 signatures so far...
>

I had already signed it back in August (# 413)
But like you said, Google won't listen, and we'll probably never get a
usable UI back.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fernando Cassia]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Fulko Hew  wrote:

>
> Can you post some instructions ?
>

Just posted it in a separate thread to stop hijacking this one. :)

Cheers!
FC

-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
- George Orwell
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OT- Getting Firefox GMail Old Compose (for a while) - Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fernando Cassia]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Fulko Hew  wrote:

> Can you post some instructions ? (for getting GMail usable again after
> "New Compose")
>

Get UAControl from here:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/uacontrol/

Once installed, Go to Tools->UAControl Options
Click "add new site", type as site mail.google.com
and as user-agent:
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0)

That will give you Old Compose

Explanation:
The Mail.google.com coders couldn't get the "New Compose" to work on IE8,
so if Google detects you're using IE8 on GMail, it gives you the "Old
Compose".

UAControl fakes the user agent ONLY for the domains you specify (in this
case, mail.google.com).

It will, of course, only work for as long as google keeps supporting IE8
for GMail, which likely won't be for very long, as they tend to follow
Microsoft in their planned obsolescence cycles. :-(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

...but in the meantime it's a good stopgap solution.

The real solution will be for Google to permanently enable old compose as
an option for those of us who prefer it.
There's a petition here:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/128/981/668/google-gmail-please-go-back-to-the-old-version-of-compose-email/

Sadly only 700 signatures so far...

If History is any indication, Google engineers in their Ivory Towers don't
give a rat's *ss about what we think... they think they know better...

Oh, and you asked about the other part of the solution, it's the Firefox
Stylish extension, grab it from here:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/stylish/

It lets you use any of the user developed styles on userstyles.org,
including these for GMail:
http://userstyles.org/styles/browse?search_terms=gmail

My personal preference (which some surely might find odd but it suits my
work style and my eyes are pleased with it) is the black background, green
text "terminal" theme (that used to be great as developed by Google, until
they turned it fugly with white-on-black text, and white background on
compose),
http://userstyles.org/styles/71798/gmail-terminal-all-black-background

It looks like this: :)
pic.twitter.com/PXMbZ8hU9A 

Hope this helps you, and some other Fedora users...

FC

-- 
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fulko Hew]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:

... snip ...


> Of course this isn't optimal, there are some downsides:
> 1. Gurgle has been fiddling with the user interface too much (if it ain't
> broke don't fix it, they' ve heard of it...)
> 2. The new GMail compose is awful (thank you Jason Cornwell) *NOT*
> 3. Luckily both points above can be fixed via the Firefox Stylish
> extension, and UAControl extension (to get the old compose).
>

Can you post some instructions ?
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Tim:
>> Going for the truly surreal analogy, were you?  ;-)

Chris Murphy:
> Not really.

Surely, you couldn't have been anything but surreal...  (With the
driver's seat on the luggage rack or in the trunk.)

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.  I
read messages from the public lists.



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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:

> That's one thing I don't like, actually. Google is now constantly annoying
> me to select which profile I use, after pestering me for months to get a
> Unified login, I said I don't want, (repeatedly) so now I have separate
> profiles (identities, the one for Youtube with a nickname rather than my
> real name,and that's the way I like it).

> That's as far as I'd go. I completely resent Google's taking over of the
> software landscape with their braindead user interfaces (Chrome), their
> needless "inventions" (spdy protocol to replace http), their forking of Java
> (Dalvik), and increasing Android dominant position in the mobile OS
> landscape (I'd rather see Jolla's Sailfish OS win).

Well this is true and sometimes I also feel the old compose option was
better in Gmail. Google always tend/desire to do some/many
alterations, even when the company knows that it could be disliked by
the vast audiences. But it has a democratic win. At least search
engine is excellent and there are more no. of android phones nowadays
than others.

Well, I stop this off-topic here itself.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fernando Cassia]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 5:53 AM, AP  wrote:

> And with one account, you have entire Google from Youtube to Plus
> etc..etc..
>

That's one thing I don't like, actually. Google is now constantly annoying
me to select which profile I use, after pestering me for months to get a
Unified login, I said I don't want, (repeatedly) so now I have separate
profiles (identities, the one for Youtube with a nickname rather than my
real name,and that's the way I like it).


> .Google s the greatest search engine!
>

That's as far as I'd go. I completely resent Google's taking over of the
software landscape with their braindead user interfaces (Chrome), their
needless "inventions" (spdy protocol to replace http), their forking of
Java (Dalvik), and increasing Android dominant position in the mobile OS
landscape (I'd rather see Jolla's Sailfish OS win).

Ok, enough drifting off topic from this side. ;)

FC



-- 
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act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Fernando Cassia  wrote:

> I for one use GMail for my email needs, and I'm as far from an e-mail noob
> as you can get (started with Delphi on-line service in the late 1980s, then
> moved to FidoNet style echomail boards, then moved to CompuServe, then to
> pop-3 email, then to IMAP, and now I use web based GMail almost exclusively.

> GMail serves me (and I guess most other people) because:

> 1. It allows to access my account from anywhere (any machine on my LAN).
> 2. I don't have to deal with local email backups (yes, I'm putting a lot of
> faith in the cloud, albeit making a local backup is on my to-do list)
> 3. I don't have to delete e-mail (I'm a data hoarder, I have every e-mail
> received/sent from 2004 to this date, and it serves me well for research
> purposes, often more than not, the answer is already in my GMail account)
> 4. I pay Google for additional storage

And with one account, you have entire Google from Youtube to Plus
etc..etc...Google s the greatest search engine! This is fair enough to
use Gmail even when one or two downsides exist.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Fernando Cassia]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 11:51 AM, g  wrote:

> such as, my self, i consider that you are of less experienced in
> using an email client, such as, thunderbird, and posting to list
> via gmail account.
>

*cough* *cough*

The above statement is both absurd and hillarious at the same time.

I for one use GMail for my email needs, and I'm as far from an e-mail noob
as you can get (started with Delphi on-line service in the late 1980s, then
moved to FidoNet style echomail boards, then moved to CompuServe, then to
pop-3 email, then to IMAP, and now I use web based GMail almost exclusively.

GMail serves me (and I guess most other people) because:

1. It allows to access my account from anywhere (any machine on my LAN).
2. I don't have to deal with local email backups (yes, I'm putting a lot of
faith in the cloud, albeit making a local backup is on my to-do list)
3. I don't have to delete e-mail (I'm a data hoarder, I have every e-mail
received/sent from 2004 to this date, and it serves me well for research
purposes, often more than not, the answer is already in my GMail account)
4. I pay Google for additional storage

Of course this isn't optimal, there are some downsides:
1. Gurgle has been fiddling with the user interface too much (if it ain't
broke don't fix it, they' ve heard of it...)
2. The new GMail compose is awful (thank you Jason Cornwell) *NOT*
3. Luckily both points above can be fixed via the Firefox Stylish
extension, and UAControl extension (to get the old compose).

But hey, that's me.

What I'm trying to say in a nutshell: please don't judge people based on
the email provider they use.

FC
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Chris Murphy  wrote:

>> Exactly true. Its more like the analogy of cars. Some people prefer
>> Ford, some Chevrolet, others like Mercedes-Benz better, but ultimately
>> they all have an engine that runs on fuel.

> A better analogy that involves cars needs some additional detail: Different 
> automakers put the driver's seat in different locations. Mercedes right 
> front, Ford right rear, Chevy on the luggage rack, Jaguar in the trunk, etc.

Yeah, that's why different Linux -- Gentoo, Fedora, Slackware,
openSUSE, Ubuntu, etc...

> And I say that because package management is a viciously nasty user 
> experience. Once you've committed to learning one of them, you definitely 
> don't want to learn how to use another one - assuming, you know, you actually 
> have work to do rather than just screwing around with computers all day long, 
> learning mindnumbing estoteric b.s like package managers.

> And fuel in this analogy, is the linux kernel. The only thing they have in 
> common is the kernel, which by all rights end users should be the least 
> interested in or interact with.

> I would rather gut myself than learn another package management system, even 
> if I had the time. I just want a little icon to click on and maybe a button 
> that says Install, because I actually care to spend time using the 
> application I've gone to the effort to locate, rather than figuring out how 
> to install, remove, or update it.

> I wonder how many thousands of man hours are consumed maintaining the 
> different packaging systems, and manually dealing with dependency conflict 
> resolution. It must be insane.

I wonder even the life is short to learn so much types of things in
Linux! Great!!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:30 AM, Steven Rosenberg
 wrote:

> Whenever you go "outside" the distribution and start picking up packages, be
> they .deb or .rpm, you invite trouble with dependencies, especially if those
> packages are not built for your particular release.

Okay you mean especially when 3rd party software are installed.

> Both Fedora and Debian/Ubuntu have very large repositories, and for Fedora,
> RPM Fusion is very reliable for those bits that don't come with the
> distribution itself, so I never experience "dependency hell."

Ok, Thanks.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Paul W. Frields  wrote:

> I think "g" was trying to make peace and you may have misunderstood
> his comments.  Please, let's be polite to each other and not
> insulting.

My intention was not to handle someone with gloves but I don't
understand why people consider it being a troll type mail. Well, I
find the reason. It happens that when you are new to Linux, you often
ask something which is pretty easy or might have been asked earlier.
So what? This query must have been so common that I came to know it
should not be asked but I had asked it actually. But again, does it
really a matter of great worth or we are wasting time in this type of
discussion? A general question from a newbie's mind is generally not
that advanced. End users won't always ask what scripts are need for
what purpose, they are more inclined towards the ease of use and
especially with Linux and thus the same type of questions get
generated in their mind. It is also possible, I get less time to have
hands on Linux, so really it seems a bit more confusing...!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Chris Murphy]

On Nov 22, 2013, at 2:59 PM, Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 11/22/2013 01:41 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> Not really. Do you think you can functionally operate any package installer 
>> without reading its manual, once you've learned any other package manager?
> 
> That depends.  Are you referring to the CLI or the GUI version?

From a developer standpoint, the CLI matters as the guts of the packaging 
methodology affects them the most. From the user standpoint, it's a fair point 
you make, that a GUI abstracts the user from this. So in that sense, continuing 
the analogy, it may be the case the users are able to get along OK driving 
fundamentally different cars, but their mechanics are only going to work on 
specific car types.

But I feel that making things easier for developers is also good for users. 
But, case in point, Apple's packaging method gives me fits also, but 
fortunately as a user I don't have to use it, and even as a developer there are 
very robust GUI tools that abstract much of the work from me as well. So it 
really is a lot about the available tools.

However, there's the non-insignificant problem of "no packaged libraries" on 
most linux distros, which then breaks packages even on distros that use the 
same packaging method. And that sort of philosophy is more hostile to 
developers than to users, but as developers pick and choose where they develop, 
it has the effect of limiting user choice.


Chris Murphy
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Joe Zeff]

On 11/22/2013 01:41 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

Not really. Do you think you can functionally operate any package installer 
without reading its manual, once you've learned any other package manager?


That depends.  Are you referring to the CLI or the GUI version?
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Chris Murphy]

On Nov 22, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Tim  wrote:

> Allegedly, on or about 22 November 2013, Chris Murphy sent:
>> A better analogy that involves cars needs some additional detail:
>> Different automakers put the driver's seat in different locations.
>> Mercedes right front, Ford right rear, Chevy on the luggage rack,
>> Jaguar in the trunk, etc.
> 
> Going for the truly surreal analogy, were you?  ;-)

Not really. Do you think you can functionally operate any package installer 
without reading its manual, once you've learned any other package manager?

If the different auto manufacturers were to design like linux package managers, 
well… that wouldn't even be possible because it would be ridiculous and they'd 
have gotten nowhere.


Chris Murphy
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tim]

Allegedly, on or about 22 November 2013, Chris Murphy sent:
> A better analogy that involves cars needs some additional detail:
> Different automakers put the driver's seat in different locations.
> Mercedes right front, Ford right rear, Chevy on the luggage rack,
> Jaguar in the trunk, etc.

Going for the truly surreal analogy, were you?  ;-)

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trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Robert Holtzman]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 08:46:07PM +0530, AP wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:21 PM, g  wrote:
> 
> [crap]
> > as in usage as a _noun_, which is defined at;
> 
> This is really shameful to have people like you..

Pot meet kettle.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Your mail is being read by tight lipped 
NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor 
Strangelove 
Key ID 8D549279


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Chris Murphy]

On Nov 22, 2013, at 2:01 AM, AP  wrote:
> 
> Exactly true. Its more like the analogy of cars. Some people prefer
> Ford, some Chevrolet, others like Mercedes-Benz better, but ultimately
> they all have an engine that runs on fuel.

A better analogy that involves cars needs some additional detail: Different 
automakers put the driver's seat in different locations. Mercedes right front, 
Ford right rear, Chevy on the luggage rack, Jaguar in the trunk, etc.

And I say that because package management is a viciously nasty user experience. 
Once you've committed to learning one of them, you definitely don't want to 
learn how to use another one - assuming, you know, you actually have work to do 
rather than just screwing around with computers all day long, learning 
mindnumbing estoteric b.s like package managers.

And fuel in this analogy, is the linux kernel. The only thing they have in 
common is the kernel, which by all rights end users should be the least 
interested in or interact with. 

> 
> I regret that I don't get much time to learn such a wonderful
> technology of Linux!!

I would rather gut myself than learn another package management system, even if 
I had the time. I just want a little icon to click on and maybe a button that 
says Install, because I actually care to spend time using the application I've 
gone to the effort to locate, rather than figuring out how to install, remove, 
or update it.

I wonder how many thousands of man hours are consumed maintaining the different 
packaging systems, and manually dealing with dependency conflict resolution. It 
must be insane.


Chris Murphy
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Steven Rosenberg]

Whenever you go "outside" the distribution and start picking up packages,
be they .deb or .rpm, you invite trouble with dependencies, especially if
those packages are not built for your particular release.

Both Fedora and Debian/Ubuntu have very large repositories, and for Fedora,
RPM Fusion is very reliable for those bits that don't come with the
distribution itself, so I never experience "dependency hell."

--
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http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
stevenhrosenb...@gmail.com
ste...@stevenrosenberg.net


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 08:46:07PM +0530, AP wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:21 PM, g  wrote:
> >
> > [crap]
> > > as in usage as a _noun_, which is defined at;
> >
> > This is really shameful to have people like you..
>
> I think "g" was trying to make peace and you may have misunderstood
> his comments.  Please, let's be polite to each other and not
> insulting.
>
> --
> Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/
>   gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233  5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717
>   http://redhat.com/   -  -  -  -   http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/
> The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Paul W. Frields]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 08:46:07PM +0530, AP wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:21 PM, g  wrote:
> 
> [crap]
> > as in usage as a _noun_, which is defined at;
> 
> This is really shameful to have people like you..

I think "g" was trying to make peace and you may have misunderstood
his comments.  Please, let's be polite to each other and not
insulting.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:21 PM, g  wrote:

[crap]
> as in usage as a _noun_, which is defined at;

This is really shameful to have people like you..
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[g]

hello ap.

On 11/21/2013 10:33 AM, AP wrote:

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Mihamina RKTMB 
wrote:


Technically, - making rpms are easier than making debs.


Oh, okay.


- apt is NOT the equivalent of rpm, but the equivalent of yum


Okay, I must have used that.


- You forgot the package management of Gentoo, Arch and so on on
your troll


Troll...? Asking a question makes you troll?


i may be wrong, but i do not believe "Mihamina RKTMB" meant that you
are a "troll" as described by;

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

because he said;

  so on on your troll

as in usage as a _noun_, which is defined at;

  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/troll

Noun

troll (plural trolls)

  1. The act of moving round; routine; repetition.


as such, can also be use to define your type of posting via gmail.

by such, that you are making a new post to this list, where by
breaking your own thread.

doing such, some may consider you "as an internet troll".

such as, my self, i consider that you are of less experienced in
using an email client, such as, thunderbird, and posting to list
via gmail account.

if you do not know how to do such, add;

  *[off list]*

to start of "Subject:" line and address direct to my email address
and i will be glad to explain further.


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peace out.

in a world with out fences, who needs gates.

tc.hago.

g
.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Heinz Diehl  wrote:

> Better/equal in precisely what?

Well, now got the idea that work is being done very well in rpm
distributions, so actually what I earlier asked, should not be asked.
Anyways, I liked the rpm because at least all of my (noob's) work is
smoothly done. Still I was curious only to know the people's view...

Better/equal in the sense of the time it takes. Also, sometimes, when
some (or more) unneeded packages reside in the system, even when they
are not used but they rest in the hard-disk. Okay well, they don't
take much capacity, so I let them sleep always. But this happens in
rpm based distros which I came to know.

>> ...or why did this bifurcation took place if the Linux is only the kernel...?

> Because there are different distributions which all think that their
> own package management system is most suited. There's more than one way to
> do it...

Oh I see. And this may be the same reason why even the typical
distributions like Gentoo got evolved!

> What kind of distribution somebody uses is a matter of taste, needs
> and other more or less subjective factors, and the package manager is
> a part of it.

Exactly true. Its more like the analogy of cars. Some people prefer
Ford, some Chevrolet, others like Mercedes-Benz better, but ultimately
they all have an engine that runs on fuel.

But I am happy with rpm now. I was a happy Fedora user and would
eventually try it back, though currently running openSUSE 12.3 with
the same happiness. I was even confused between the many distributions
but came to understand the underneath strategy to install one and use
it!

I regret that I don't get much time to learn such a wonderful
technology of Linux!!
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Heinz Diehl]

On 21.11.2013, AP wrote: 

> Just wanted to know if rpm is better than apt or vice-versa or both
> are equal

Better/equal in precisely what?

> ...or why did this bifurcation took place if the Linux is only the kernel...?

Because there are different distributions which all think that their
own package management system is most suited. There's more than one way to
do it...

What kind of distribution somebody uses is a matter of taste, needs
and other more or less subjective factors, and the package manager is
a part of it.

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:08 PM, Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak
 wrote:

> yum didn't always exist. yum handles the dependencies between packages.

Ok.

> Before that, a lot of prayer was involved if you mixed rpm packages from
> different sources.

You mean from third party sources.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak]

On 11/21/2013 10:29 AM, AP wrote:


Well I just heard a couple of guys saying "rpm hell".

Now a days, when rpm works very well, still does it lag behind apt in
some ways...?


yum didn't always exist. yum handles the dependencies between packages. 
Before that, a lot of prayer was involved if you mixed rpm packages from 
different sources.


- Mike
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Tethys]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Greg Woods  wrote:

> Probably a reference to the very early days of RPM (pre-yum). You'd
> install a package, then find some library was missing and go to install
> that, which led to something else missing, etc. A few cycles of this and
> you know what "dependency hell" means. Nowadays, with yum, all the
> dependencies are pulled in automatically, so "rpm hell" is largely a
> thing of the past.

Sort of. RPM was a victim of its own success. Because Red Hat was the
leading distribution, it was the one that attracted the largest number
of third party RPMs, and that's what caused the dependency problems
that came to be known as RPM hell. Also, people would mix RPMs from
Red Hat, SuSE and other distributions and just expect them to work
(which largely they didn't). That problem still exists today, exactly
the same as it does for dpkg based distributions (and always has
done). It's just that the RPM and dkpg repositories these days have
larger coverage of the free software landscape, so the dependencies
are more likely to be in the default repo, and there are fewer third
party packages these days, as well as fewer RPM based distributions to
muddy the waters.

Tet

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Mihamina RKTMB]

On 11/21/2013 06:41 PM, AP wrote:

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Heinz Diehl  wrote:


What precisely are you asking for?

Just wanted to know if rpm is better than apt or vice-versa or both
are equal...or why did this bifurcation took place if the Linux is
only the kernel...?



Technically,
- making rpms are easier than making debs.
- apt is NOT the equivalent of rpm, but the equivalent of yum
- You forgot the package management of Gentoo, Arch and so on on your troll

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Heinz Diehl  wrote:

> What precisely are you asking for?

Just wanted to know if rpm is better than apt or vice-versa or both
are equal...or why did this bifurcation took place if the Linux is
only the kernel...?

Thanks.
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Greg Woods]

On Thu, 2013-11-21 at 20:59 +0530, AP wrote:

> Well I just heard a couple of guys saying "rpm hell".

Probably a reference to the very early days of RPM (pre-yum). You'd
install a package, then find some library was missing and go to install
that, which led to something else missing, etc. A few cycles of this and
you know what "dependency hell" means. Nowadays, with yum, all the
dependencies are pulled in automatically, so "rpm hell" is largely a
thing of the past.

--Greg


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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[Heinz Diehl]

On 21.11.2013, AP wrote: 

> Well I just heard a couple of guys saying "rpm hell".
 
> Now a days, when rpm works very well, still does it lag behind apt in
> some ways...?

What precisely are you asking for?

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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Mihamina RKTMB  wrote:

> Technically,
> - making rpms are easier than making debs.

Oh, okay.

> - apt is NOT the equivalent of rpm, but the equivalent of yum

Okay, I must have used that.

> - You forgot the package management of Gentoo, Arch and so on on your troll

Troll...? Asking a question makes you troll?
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Re: Why some say "rpm hell"

[AP]

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Greg Woods  wrote:

> Probably a reference to the very early days of RPM (pre-yum). You'd
> install a package, then find some library was missing and go to install
> that, which led to something else missing, etc. A few cycles of this and
> you know what "dependency hell" means. Nowadays, with yum, all the
> dependencies are pulled in automatically, so "rpm hell" is largely a
> thing of the past.

Okay got it. I don't think saying it is worthy nowadays. But for an
end user this all won't matter anytime.
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