[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross purposes. I
don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a collection of
solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the voice part.
What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal music in
several parts - (which in the context I think it is appropriate to refer to
as polyphony).
The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to accompany
Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Surely the Pope would have had a fit if
the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming continuously
throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!). This
is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the only likely
accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo or other
bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
The other instruments are more likely to have been involved when
accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the choruses in the
Intermedii.
In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo songs with
elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen today.
Monica
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
>> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
>> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured
bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered
the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
even performed on the guitar.
>
> I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable
of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
strumming away in there!
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and
sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than
one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this
was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended
Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt"
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a playful
and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the cetera,
lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than one voice at
a time, although single line should also be considered possible. But I
assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this was done 'in a
contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and chitarrina that could
possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely however that a chordal style,
continuously including all courses of the instrument, was intended
I have no problem with that. I just wouldn't rule out the possibility that
the chitarrina sometimes added simple chords to the melodic line - in the
same way that the violin occasionally indulges in some double stopping - and
these could have been arpeggiated in the way that Cerreto suggests using all
four fingers of the right hand.
Monica .
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[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Lex,
Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and thrashing about
produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see no reason to
suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended'). For example, song accompaniments with
Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo realisations on
the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I mentioned.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
>> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra
spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
>> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured
bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the
'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the
guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered
the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not
even performed on the guitar.
>
> I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way.
Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone,
Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable
of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to
suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the
point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be
strumming away in there!
Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a
playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and
sonorous.'
The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the
cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than
one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered
possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this
was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and
chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely
however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the
instrument, was intended
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the chitarra spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600. But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really about figured bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of the 'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style of the guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have considered the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the bass is not even performed on the guitar. I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a way. Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the Lirone, Cetera and the Pandora. These are all instruments which are capable of filling in the harmony to some extent. There is no reason to suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what would the point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina. It could be strumming away in there! Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which, in a playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous.' The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such as the cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played more than one voice at a time, although single line should also be considered possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected that also this was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the cetera and chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems unlikely however that a chordal style, continuously including all courses of the instrument, was intended Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
