I ramble... this got too big... I separated for those who like to read:
it could be that it was like that in the past. but i bet the number
right now of people who own a computer without making music is far
more than the number of people who own a guitar that sits around for
no reason.
I was comparing people who installed actual music software to the
number of people who have picked up a guitar over the years and
decided they were in a band.
Why would we compare people who picked up a guitar to people who own
a computer without making music? Of course there are more people
that own a computer... but a strong majority have nothing at all to
do with music production.
If your point focused on people playing guitar and then deciding they
sucked and stopped playing, or got a life and had no time for it,
then there will be just as many people that installed music software
and just noodled around and decided they sucked, got bored, or got
busy with the rest of their lives too.
with a laptop, you can do everything and have it posted on the web in
under 2 hours.
Errr... that was my point. Your complaint about the flood of trash
is a direct result of the availability of music software and online
distribution. People couldn't and still can't download a guitar, and
yes they had to go through the effort of starting a band, and they
couldn't distribute their work the way they can now over the
internet. You are regurgitating what I said.
My point, further, is that because of this exponential availability
of music software and distribution you are being flooded by any and
all bedroom musicians that have no skill, or are still beginners but
distributing their music before they really refine their skills but
are also looking for opinion. The song distribution model has been
flipped upside-down.
You are saying music is going downhill.. but in that same point,
years ago, all of those aspiring, yet awful, musicians did not have
the distribution model available today-- so as a result, you or I
never got to hear them unless we stumbled down to the local dive to
get our ears sonically pierced. Proportionally, just as many of the
musicians that were playing in their garages, basements, bedrooms,
sucked just as much as some, or many, of the artists do today. (and I
don't mean to sound arrogant)
Again. Online today you can find just as much trash from any given
genre because they are all uploading mp3's too... maybe a slightly
lower proportion because electronic musicians record directly to
their hard drive, which makes mp3 conversion easier than microwaving
lunch.... this does not mean software generated music sucks-- it
means you end up hearing a larger cross section of the genre, and it
can be overwhelming, as it sounds like you are.
It's signal to noise ratio, and *that* has gotten worse. Now we get
the pleasure of hearing everyone and their pet iguana's sonic
experiments and *that* has disillusioned you.
This has nothing to do with music created on a PC, it's about the
flood of the information age. Because music software is readily
available there *is* a proportionate amount of good and even
brilliant talent out there putting their hearts and souls in the
music, doing there thing, and breaking new ground with quality
music. It's just getting harder to find them in this sea of
information and noise.
the problem with the tool of course is that it requires nothing in
addition to work. no techiques, no abilities, nothing. hell, you can
even get sample packs on the web of every drum machine ever and use
them all. nothing at all is required to get going.
What if I went out and bought ever single drum machine ever made and
used them all? Would I be breaking the code then?
What if I have the money to buy them all, while most people in the
world do not. Is that not just an advantage of the rich musician
over the poor musician?
Is it really so wrong to be able to have access to these sounds?
Also, all of those sounds are presets That means another person made
those drum sounds when they built that device. Flashback... "I
can't believe it, electronic music (Detroit Techno even) is nothing
but people making records with sounds that other people
programmed." In the 80's people said these things about drum
machines and synthesizers--then samplers. The gear is doing all of
the work. There is no real music anymore... This is the 313: Detroit
Techno mailing list, so I assume that since you are here you enjoy
electronic music. It has been fronted on in every step of it's
technical evolution. I've heard it all in my own experience too.
Regardless, personally, I don't use any sounds from drum machines
anymore. I synth and tweak all of my own sounds.... probably with a
rare exception here or there when a preset percussive sound is just
perfect. The most legitimate artists follow the same 'code'.
which i appreciate
in theory. in practice however, it makes people really lazy and more
than willing to just copy and bite things left and right. if you want
to start a band or even just use a hardware electronic music studio,
its going to require 10 times more thought and effort
I disagree.. Yes, it's going to take 10 times more effort to deal
with the *band* and *the hardware studio* as compared to software
based production but the effort put in to the actual creative process
is exactly the same.
Some people, like myself, just don't work well with other
musicians. I'm a control freak... the other guy can't see what's in
my head and he/she never will. It's everyone's prerogative to either
work alone or with other people. You like that 'synergy' some people
feel with other musicians, cool, I'm not complaining, but other
people, some of them brilliant, can't work that way. They need their
own space. That doesn't discount their music at all. Take it out of
music... look at painting... There aren't a lot of famous artistic
painting teams out there are there? Of course not because they have
their own vision.
What is heroic about going into a hardware studio vs using a
computer? It's just another evolution in technology that lets us
express our creative vision.
For example. Before the 80's keyboards were completely separate and
there was no communication or synchronization available between
different instruments-- except by manufacturers that built a few
models to work with one or 2 of their other proprietary
models. Keyboards were mostly just an accent to a guitar band, and
most all electronic acts were primitive and sloppy. Then the Music
Instrument Digital Interface, MIDI, came out and was a general
standard for all keyboards to communicate and synchronize
together. This evolution in itself is one of the main factors in
accelerating the evolution of electronic music towards what we have
known. Entire arrangements could be made and synchronized together--
even by one person using a sequencer... and what has most musical
sequencing in the past 20 years been done on?... A computer. Back
then there was The Human League who, as well as other naysayers,
scoffed at the introduction of MIDI and made it well known that they
don't use sequencers and each instrument is separate and played live
by one person. They *had* to do this in a time where people just
weren't used to the new technology-- because now anyone could just
buy a bunch of keyboards, hook them up to their computer, and press return.
In the second half of the 80's I had a friend who was actually my
inspiration to start making my own electronic music. He lived in
Grosse Ile, an island south of Detroit, and I went to see him do a
show at his high school. Before he even started playing someone in
the audience yelled, "Press Return!"
This was 20 years ago, and when I hear you saying virtually the same
thing today it makes me all warm and fuzzy on the inside.
just to get
going than it is to make a remedial track in most software apps. that
efforts weeds out jokers. not all of them, unfortunately, but alot of
them.
Why do you assume the track is going to be remedial? Are there not
remedial tracks made in every other genre of music? I sense a
stereotype that assumes any track that comes out of a computer is
going to be remedial... before you even hear it. You might need to
reflect on that and ask yourself if your mind is truly open, or if
your just hanging on to a disposition.
Again, there are good artists and bad artists, and you are being
flooded with everyone now... especially the amateurs at a higher
proportion than ever before in the history of recorded music.
for all these music heads, where is the good music? are they just not
working hard enough? too many people bite the trendy style, too many
people follow the paint by numbers method of making music in genre X.
and that isnt limited to computer users, but it seems extremely
prevalent amongst them.
This sounds like a grievance with supply, mainstream demand, and the
evolution of the modern recording industry. I turn on the radio and
I hear a guitar band singing the same song that I've been hearing my
entire life.... except it's being sung by an ever changing cast of
performers.... like watching a broadway showing of Cats when it comes
to town, over and over, with different performers every round..
except each round comes every 5 minutes. Radio is trash. I hate 99%
of what is on it, and I have my entire life. Just the same drivel
over and over... people biting the latest style. Someone produces a
new hit, and about 2-3 months later you here each separate record
label's "version" of that artist. Madonna? How many one-named women
came out after her... Tiffany.. Regina... who else? It's $hit....
and Madonna sucked in the first place. Got Britney? We have Christina.
It has always been this way.... you're just seeing more of it because
that is the style of music you are focusing on now, and over the past
decade the amount of noise has overtaken the signal.
I hope nobody else figures out what program I use. I'll be ruined.
hey man, YOU might not. but many other people do just use their
programs in the same old way and make the same old crap.
and a lot of people use their guitars to make the same old crap. A
lot of washed up jazz musicians used the sax's to make the same old
crap. I've always complained about "noodly guitar music" and "noodly
jazz music" that just doesn't seem to go anywhere... I couldn't think
of a better adjective but it is all garbage.
Then there are the good artists. It applies across the boards to every genre.
im not gonna say what i feel about your tracks because this isnt what
the discussion is about. but i bet you can guess.
I'm assuming most people in the world won't like it at all. I am
just grateful for the people who do.
Also, every track that I've released has been made using meatspace
gear. Only the new tracks on my page were made with software synths.
This is so funny. I, like probably 80-90% of pure electronic
musicians, have always used a sequencer (which only records the note
numbers you play into it) and then I used real life
synthesizers. Now I've simply switched to using one synth plug-in
that is built into my sequencer, and one other external plug-in...
and they both have the same parameters you will find on any real life
synth. I'm doing the same thing in my computer as I was outside.
>its not really a new point,
Extraneous insult ignored.
which extraneous insult was that?
That I wasn't making an original point, which I wasn't.
You may understand it, but I'm not sure if the point is sinking in.
Is photography art? If so, why? All you have to
do is press a button. Some people make
masterpieces with their Polaroids while others
make trash with their elaborate camera systems.... and vice versa.
but the point is that if you try to substitute the elaborate setup for
talent, it doesnt work!
That's what I said.
"Some people make masterpieces with their Polaroids while others
make trash with their elaborate camera systems.... and vice versa."
but thats not really where the true difference
is. what a photo does is the same as what music does, it captures a
feeling. think of it as the difference between someone who takes
candid shots vs someone who sets up their shots. thats really where
the difference comes in more. you can elaborate in setting up a photo
and suck all the interesting things out of the subject that were there
when you got the inspiration to frame it the way you want it in the
first place.
Richard Avedon traveled the United States and would meet people from
all walks of life in whatever region he was in. Instead of candidly
taking his subject's pictures he would put them in front of a
perfectly blank white background where they stood, completely
separating the person from his environment. His series of portraits
are commonly lauded as some of the most intriguing and revealing
photographic works of people to this day.
worrying about lighting and whatnot doesnt matter if
youre not getting the feeling across. and thats the same thing that
computers open up in music. they allow you to mess with things on such
a small level, make them "perfect".
I'm not sure we see music in exactly the same way. Sometimes I am
trying to create an entirely new environment that simply does not
exist in reality, it's my daydream world and I'm trying to put it
into my speakers as best I can. I'm not always thinking about
basslines, the kick, the snare, the hihats... I'm thinking about a
living breathing "place"... How can I candidly capture something that
doesn't even exist to begin with? What if I want my 'creation' to be
perfect... if it wasn't it would ruin that feeling that *I* am trying
to capture... ie: create. I want it to be perfect because I want it
to be believable.
I like clean lines... maybe you like rough edges.. does that mean my
clean lines are bad and should be dismissed in a public forum as unworthy?
I want perfect. You don't. Go buy imperfect music.
I don't always want perfect anyway... I like it all, I would get very
bored without variety.
which of course is what sucks all
the humanity out of it.
Does all music need to have humanity in it to be valid? Wasn't this
list founded around Techno?... the celebration of all things
mechanical combined with an optimistic betterment of our world?
Personally my favorite electronic works remind me of devices,
environments, etc... things that by nature have no 'soul'... but they
seem to have a hint of a primitive emotion or a soul that is trapped
inside and trying to get out.
Does that mean I'm repressed? Maybe it does, but that would
certainly influence the type of music I enjoy as compared to someone
else who wasn't. We are all slightly different on some level.
you can just concentrate on the technical
aspects of it because it requires only knowledge, not talent or
creativity. its obvious across all genres of electronic music from
jungle to techno to IDM. the computers allow wankery that just
distracts from what music is about: feeling.
Go back in time. The same exact thing has been said of electronic
music throughout its entire history.
It's cold. It has no soul. Heartless. Is it?
This is your opinion, and you are 100% entitled to it. It sounds
like you might need emotion and feeling to come pouring out at you
for you to enjoy a song. I don't always need that, but when I do
like it, I want it to rip my heart out. So, we have different tastes.
Is music only about feeling? Who decided that?
Is beauty objective or subjective? (I'm hiding under my desk on that
one... haha... visions of my philosophy of art class with Professor
Powers... who was so charismatic he died of a heart attack during our
spring break)
