Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
yes I see now, special techniques to get the dynamic range. Good luck with the research. Original message From: Karl Warnick Date: 22/08/2024 19:31 (GMT+00:00) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Thanks to all for very helpful responses. I have some great leads now that I'm looking into. Neil, here's a phase noise spec for an HP/Keysight 8648. It's good enough to measure phase noise in moderate quality clocks, but a better setup can measure down to around -170 dBc/Hz at 100 kHz offset from the carrier. Best, Karl On 8/21/2024 2:02 AM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}@font-face {font-family:"Comic Sans MS"; panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;}p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}span.gmailsignatureprefix {mso-style-name:gmail_signature_prefix;}span.EmailStyle21 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} Hi Karl, It’s perhaps a naïve question, but how far can you get in measuring phase noise using a good spectrum analyser? I’ve an old HP dial up oscillator up to 40 GHz tube source that has phase noise -107 dBc/Hz 100 kHz from the carrier. Cheers, Neil From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Daniel Blakley Sent: 21 August 2024 05:57 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Dear Karl, I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this is a good place to ask others who may. I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. -Daniel Blakley On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick wrote: Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Thanks to all for very helpful responses. I have some great leads now that I'm looking into. Neil, here's a phase noise spec for an HP/Keysight 8648. It's good enough to measure phase noise in moderate quality clocks, but a better setup can measure down to around -170 dBc/Hz at 100 kHz offset from the carrier. Best, Karl On 8/21/2024 2:02 AM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: Hi Karl, It’s perhaps a naïve question, but how far can you get in measuring phase noise using a good spectrum analyser? I’ve an old HP dial up oscillator up to 40 GHz tube source that has phase noise -107 dBc/Hz 100 kHz from the carrier. Cheers, Neil *From:*[email protected] *On Behalf Of *Daniel Blakley *Sent:* 21 August 2024 05:57 *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Dear Karl, I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this is a good place to ask others who may. I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. -Daniel Blakley On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick wrote: Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:casper%[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu. -- -Daniel Blakley -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Firstly, be careful of the phase noise definition: https://scholar.google.co.za/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=B69pWoYJ&cstart=20&pagesize=80&citation_for_view=B69pWoYJ:8AbLer7MMksC https://open.uct.ac.za/items/0fdd8b4f-ec5d-4ab8-8120-443b30894c8c Useful phase noise / jitter measurement methods https://open.uct.ac.za/items/2ade182a-f162-41ba-a1d0-43033bcadc2a Distribution of timing http://leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm Regards On Wed, 21 Aug 2024 at 10:02, salmon.na via [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Hi Karl, > > > > It’s perhaps a naïve question, but how far can you get in measuring phase > noise using a good spectrum analyser? > > > > I’ve an old HP dial up oscillator up to 40 GHz tube source that has phase > noise -107 dBc/Hz 100 kHz from the carrier. > > > > Cheers, Neil > > > > *From:* [email protected] *On Behalf > Of *Daniel Blakley > *Sent:* 21 August 2024 05:57 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis > > > > Dear Karl, > > > >I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this > is a good place to ask others who may. > > > >I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very > interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation > are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is > significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made > significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with > the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More > recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise > measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement > architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several > instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that > is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other > instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. > > > > -Daniel Blakley > > > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into > calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what > I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data > sets and tips for the hardware. > > Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test > data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to > share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check > the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should > be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally > better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second > for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the > sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the > algorithm. > > How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost > hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure > phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can > be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it > should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably > stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be > external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the > platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the > order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, > but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope > products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know > anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. > > Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. > > Best, > Karl > > -- > Karl F. Warnick > Parkinson Engineering Research Professor > Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering > Brigham Young University > 450 Engineering Building > Provo, UT 84602 > (801) 422-1732 > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups " > [email protected]" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90
RE: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Karl, It’s perhaps a naïve question, but how far can you get in measuring phase noise using a good spectrum analyser? I’ve an old HP dial up oscillator up to 40 GHz tube source that has phase noise -107 dBc/Hz 100 kHz from the carrier. Cheers, Neil From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Daniel Blakley Sent: 21 August 2024 05:57 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Dear Karl, I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this is a good place to ask others who may. I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. -Daniel Blakley On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:casper%[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu. -- -Daniel Blakley -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> " group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/CAJa6%3DL1qhK7U6BZCpKxcVq6R_jiUyVtOF11Sy7rxaojsVt_OhQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/CAJa6%3DL1qhK7U6BZCpKxcVq6R_jiUyVtOF11Sy7rxaojsVt_OhQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Dear Karl, I definitely don't have a simple quick answer to your question, so this is a good place to ask others who may. I find and found Phase Noise analysis and its measurement to be very interesting. As you know, fundamentally, phase noise and Alan Deviation are very closely related, as is the measurement of clock jitter. It is significant to note that NIST (Boulder CO) historically has made significant contributions to Phase Noise Analysis, beginning long ago with the work of David Alan (to which Alan Deviation owes its namesake). More recently (several years ago) again in significant work in phase noise measurement, NIST introduced a new, more accurate, phase noise measurement architecture and method. Out of this work, came to pass several instruments which largely emulated or followed this new architecture that is evident in some of the Keysight phase noise offerings as well as other instruments from manufacturers such as Holzworth, Rhode & Schwartz, et al. -Daniel Blakley On Tue, Aug 20, 2024 at 2:37 PM Karl Warnick wrote: > Hi all, > > I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into > calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what > I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data > sets and tips for the hardware. > > Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test > data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to > share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check > the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should > be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally > better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second > for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the > sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the > algorithm. > > How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost > hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure > phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can > be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it > should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably > stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be > external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the > platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the > order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, > but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope > products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know > anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. > > Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. > > Best, > Karl > > -- > Karl F. Warnick > Parkinson Engineering Research Professor > Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering > Brigham Young University > 450 Engineering Building > Provo, UT 84602 > (801) 422-1732 > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups " > [email protected]" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu > . > -- -Daniel Blakley -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/CAJa6%3DL1qhK7U6BZCpKxcVq6R_jiUyVtOF11Sy7rxaojsVt_OhQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
See: https://www.tinydevices.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinyPFA.Homepage Cheers, Kaj On 21.8.2024 0.08, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: Hi Karl, not sure if I can help much more here, one things that might be useful is measure the Allen variance? Perhaps someone at NIST or NPL in the UK might have methods to characterise the phase noise of your sources. Good luck. Neil -Original Message- From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Karl Warnick Sent: 20 August 2024 22:01 To: salmon.na via [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Hi Neil, thanks for responding. I'm working at 25 MHz. I have five different clocks ranging from from low cost clock chips to expensive stable sources. The project started with looking for an easy benchtop way to compare their stability without an expensive analyzer. More specifically, when we realized that the mid range spectrum analyzers of which we have several couldn't measure phase noise low enough to distinguish any of the clocks. It's not an issue of finding good clocks as we have that but comparing stability among them. Best, Karl On 8/20/2024 2:48 PM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: Hi Karl, Cant you just use specifications on phase stability of standard sources of varying degrees of stability which would be a function of price? What radio frequency are you working at. Tube sources tend to have good phase stability. There might be some old but goodies on ebay. There's also an HP user group https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment where you might find a few low cost sources from those I keep the old kit working. Also a good source of technical data on radar technology and knowhow. Cheers, Neil -Original Message- From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Karl Warnick Sent: 20 August 2024 21:38 To: [email protected] Subject: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/96062897-878a-4402-ad6f-9dc9719f9bf6%40utu.fi.
RE: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Karl, not sure if I can help much more here, one things that might be useful is measure the Allen variance? Perhaps someone at NIST or NPL in the UK might have methods to characterise the phase noise of your sources. Good luck. Neil -Original Message- From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Karl Warnick Sent: 20 August 2024 22:01 To: salmon.na via [email protected] Subject: Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Hi Neil, thanks for responding. I'm working at 25 MHz. I have five different clocks ranging from from low cost clock chips to expensive stable sources. The project started with looking for an easy benchtop way to compare their stability without an expensive analyzer. More specifically, when we realized that the mid range spectrum analyzers of which we have several couldn't measure phase noise low enough to distinguish any of the clocks. It's not an issue of finding good clocks as we have that but comparing stability among them. Best, Karl On 8/20/2024 2:48 PM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: > Hi Karl, > > Cant you just use specifications on phase stability of standard sources of > varying degrees of stability which would be a function of price? What radio > frequency are you working at. Tube sources tend to have good phase stability. > There might be some old but goodies on ebay. There's also an HP user group > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment where you might find a few > low cost sources from those I keep the old kit working. Also a good source of > technical data on radar technology and knowhow. > > Cheers, > Neil > > -Original Message- > From: [email protected] On Behalf > Of Karl Warnick > Sent: 20 August 2024 21:38 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis > > Hi all, > > I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into > calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I > think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and > tips for the hardware. > > Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set > consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test > data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both > the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the > order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length > should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. > The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm > mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. > > How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware > (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise > comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with > an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do > this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The > sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be > around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst > of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 > and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked > into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't > know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. > > Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. > > Best, > Karl > > -- > Karl F. Warnick > Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and > Computer Engineering Brigham Young University > 450 Engineering Building > Provo, UT 84602 > (801) 422-1732 > > > > > -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/f1b82739-9bd9-4e76-8f6c-a797c31b94a0%40ee.byu.edu. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/00a501daf345%2416a97bf0%2443fc73d0%24%40tiscali.co.uk.
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Neil, thanks for responding. I'm working at 25 MHz. I have five different clocks ranging from from low cost clock chips to expensive stable sources. The project started with looking for an easy benchtop way to compare their stability without an expensive analyzer. More specifically, when we realized that the mid range spectrum analyzers of which we have several couldn't measure phase noise low enough to distinguish any of the clocks. It's not an issue of finding good clocks as we have that but comparing stability among them. Best, Karl On 8/20/2024 2:48 PM, salmon.na via [email protected] wrote: Hi Karl, Cant you just use specifications on phase stability of standard sources of varying degrees of stability which would be a function of price? What radio frequency are you working at. Tube sources tend to have good phase stability. There might be some old but goodies on ebay. There's also an HP user group https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment where you might find a few low cost sources from those I keep the old kit working. Also a good source of technical data on radar technology and knowhow. Cheers, Neil -Original Message- From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Karl Warnick Sent: 20 August 2024 21:38 To: [email protected] Subject: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/f1b82739-9bd9-4e76-8f6c-a797c31b94a0%40ee.byu.edu.
RE: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Karl, Cant you just use specifications on phase stability of standard sources of varying degrees of stability which would be a function of price? What radio frequency are you working at. Tube sources tend to have good phase stability. There might be some old but goodies on ebay. There's also an HP user group https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment where you might find a few low cost sources from those I keep the old kit working. Also a good source of technical data on radar technology and knowhow. Cheers, Neil -Original Message- From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Karl Warnick Sent: 20 August 2024 21:38 To: [email protected] Subject: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis Hi all, I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data sets and tips for the hardware. Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the algorithm. How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. Best, Karl -- Karl F. Warnick Parkinson Engineering Research Professor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Brigham Young University 450 Engineering Building Provo, UT 84602 (801) 422-1732 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/00a301daf342%243f65d3c0%24be317b40%24%40tiscali.co.uk.
Re: [casper] Low cost phase noise analysis
Hi Karl, Perhaps you have come across this but your query brought it to mind so I thought I'd pass it along in case it's interesting http://www.aholme.co.uk/PhaseNoise/Main.htm Glenn On Tue, Aug 20, 2024, 13:37 Karl Warnick wrote: > Hi all, > > I've spent some time this summer as part of a radar project digging into > calculating phase noise for highly stable tones. I have implemented what > I think is a decent algorithm. My next steps are to look for test data > sets and tips for the hardware. > > Do you have a file of samples of a stable tone? If anyone has a test > data set consisting of samples of a pure tone that they would like to > share as a test data set, I'd like to apply my codes to that and check > the phase noise. Both the tone generator and the ADC sample clock should > be phase stable to the order of a Keysight signal generator, or ideally > better. The data set length should be a reasonable fraction of a second > for ~1 Hz phase noise resolution. The frequency of the tone and the > sample rate are fairly arbitrary as I'm mainly looking to benchmark the > algorithm. > > How cheaply can stable samples be acquired? I'm looking for low cost > hardware (a few $100s up to a few $k) that is stable enough to measure > phase noise comparable to a Keysight source or better. Phase noise can > be measured with an expensive phase noise analyzer, but I believe it > should be possible to do this with a low cost digitizer with a suitably > stable sample clock. The sample clock could (or perhaps must) be > external. The sample rate should be around 80-100 Msps or higher and the > platform should be able to store a burst of samples of length on the > order of 1 sec. We have done this using a ZCU 216 and it seems to work, > but that isn't really a low cost board. I've looked into Picoscope > products, which might be ideal, but their support people don't know > anything about the phase noise properties of their samplers. > > Thanks in advance to anyone whose interest is piqued enough to respond. > > Best, > Karl > > -- > Karl F. Warnick > Parkinson Engineering Research Professor > Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering > Brigham Young University > 450 Engineering Building > Provo, UT 84602 > (801) 422-1732 > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups " > [email protected]" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/8839ddb3-83fd-40be-8a9d-c90ae6f9678e%40ee.byu.edu > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "[email protected]" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/lists.berkeley.edu/d/msgid/casper/CAGK_ABfmWHQxEkkhfZZZymw_A7cf7MheYFz%3DYDduToEsjwHK2Q%40mail.gmail.com.
