Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Pascal Hambourg]

On 13/04/2025 à 18:33, Pascal Hambourg wrote:


In order to move forward I prepared a patch implementing the following 
logic:


if installation media is not a real CD/DVD/BD
 automatically disable cdrom entries
else if sources.list has network entries
 if installation media is netinst, live or single desktop
     automatically disable cdrom entries
 else
     ask user whether to disable cdrom entries


I opened a merge request without the "ask user whether to disable cdrom 
entries" part and associated debconf template:

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Pascal Hambourg]

Control: tags -1 patch

On 08/04/2025 at 08:37, BW wrote:


Let's say we have 1000 random Debian users performing a new server
installation.


Why only server and not also workstation or laptop ?


999 of these will not use optical media (CD-ROM/DVD) and will have a broken
package-configuration (out-of-the-box) and will need to take special steps
to get it working (modifying the sources file).


Only those using "big" images (DVD, BD, 16G) will experience what you 
describe. Those who using "small" images (netinst, netboot, live), and I 
assume that most do nowadays, will get a working out-of-the-box apt 
sources configuration.


But as a user I agree that the installer should disable sources.list 
entries which will not work without further configuration. This includes 
cdrom entries generated from media other than a real optical disc 
because currently APT cannot use them.



Please design Debian to target the vast majority, by fare, of
installations scenarios by NOT putting CD-ROM as the 1st priority package
source in the sources.


I am not convinced this is be the best course of action. IMO cdrom 
sources are useful after installation only when no network mirror can be 
used or network is slow or expensive, not as a fallback for network 
failures. I would rather have the installer automatically disable them 
if they would not work in the installed system, and ask the user otherwise.


In order to move forward I prepared a patch implementing the following 
logic:


if installation media is not a real CD/DVD/BD
automatically disable cdrom entries
else if sources.list has network entries
if installation media is netinst, live or single desktop
automatically disable cdrom entries
else
ask user whether to disable cdrom entries



Comments welcome. If it receives positive feedback I will open a MR.

Processed: Re: Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing control commands:

> tags -1 patch
Bug #1102140 [debian-installer] CD-ROM is still first priority package 
repository in Test/Trixia
Added tag(s) patch.

-- 
1102140: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1102140
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Am 7. April 2025 20:23:09 MESZ schrieb Pascal Hambourg :
>On 07/04/2025 at 17:32, Holger Wansing wrote:
>> 
>> So, it's another report of "please disable the sources.list entries from 
>> installation media, when installation is finished".
>
>Sort of. I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past.
>
>> But there's no difference, if the CD/DVD image is on optical media or on 
>> USB...
>
>By default an optical disc is mounted on /media/cdrom and makes apt happy, 
>whereas a USB flash drive is usually mounted elsewhere.
>
>> It does not get any updates in any case.
>
>IIRC, the issue is not when doing updates but when installing packages which 
>are present in the original installation image and apt insists on using the 
>installation media instead of the network repositories.

We should not make a difference here: on the long term you will need 
sources.list entries, that work for the whole archive.
Still rely on an installation image as only source will not work for the long 
future.
You will for sure end up with the situation, where a package you need is not on 
the CD/DVD image, and then you have to switch to a debian online mirror anyway.

Am I right with this, or do I miss something?


Holger


-- 
Sent from /e/ OS on Fairphone3

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Pascal Hambourg]

On 07/04/2025 at 23:04, Holger Wansing wrote:


Am 7. April 2025 20:23:09 MESZ schrieb Pascal Hambourg :



Still rely on an installation image as only source will not work for the long 
future.
You will for sure end up with the situation, where a package you need is not on 
the CD/DVD image, and then you have to switch to a debian online mirror anyway.

Am I right with this, or do I miss something?


It sounds like you are missing BW's point. Package update is not 
affected. Let me try to detail a bit more.


After installing Debian from a DVD installation image and a network 
mirror, /etc/apt/sources.lists looks like this:


deb cdrom:[Debian GNU/Linux 12.10.0 "Bookworm" - Official amd64 DVD with 
firmware 20250315-10:09] bookworm contrib main non-free-firmware


deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free-firmware


With this configuration, if the candidate version of a package is 
present in the installation media, then apt requires to fetch it from an 
optical drive. If the original installation DVD is inserted, then apt 
successfully fetches the package from it. Otherwise apt endlessly asks 
for the DVD:


Media change: please insert the disc labeled
 'Debian GNU/Linux 12.10.0 "Bookworm" - Official amd64 DVD with 
firmware 20250315-10:09'

in the drive '/media/cdrom/' and press [Enter]


The user must comment out the "cdrom" entry in /etc/apt/sources.list to 
prevent apt from asking to insert the DVD.


Some suggestions to avoid this:
- disable all "cdrom" sources at the end of the installation, not only 
incomplete ones (netinst, live...)
- disable "cdrom" sources if the installation device is not an optical 
disc (USB flash drive, loop-mounted ISO file...)

- prompt the user whether to keep or disable "cdrom" sources
- put "cdrom" sources after network sources in /etc/apt/sources.list

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[BW]

You might all have valid arguments on a technical level.
But you have to take two step back and not get tangled into
technical subtleties and just use common sense.

It all comes down too:
Let's say we have 1000 random Debian users performing a new server
installation.
999 of these will not use optical media (CD-ROM/DVD) and will have a broken
package-configuration (out-of-the-box) and will need to take special steps
to get it working (modifying the sources file).
The last 1 of these will have a well working system.

Please design Debian to target the vast majority, by fare, of
installations scenarios by NOT putting CD-ROM as the 1st priority package
source in the sources.

I would not be surprise the actual ratio is 1.000.000/1.a USB flash
drive with room for 5GB iso is way cheaper today than buying recordable
optical media (if you can even buy them). Which only make it even
more absurd the out-of-the-box configuration is targeting this 1 user!




On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 12:12 AM Steve McIntyre  wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> On Mon, Apr 07, 2025 at 11:04:49PM +0200, Holger Wansing wrote:
> >
> >Am 7. April 2025 20:23:09 MESZ schrieb Pascal Hambourg <
> pas...@plouf.fr.eu.org>:
> >>On 07/04/2025 at 17:32, Holger Wansing wrote:
> >>>
> >>> So, it's another report of "please disable the sources.list entries
> from installation media, when installation is finished".
> >>
> >>Sort of. I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past.
> >>
> >>> But there's no difference, if the CD/DVD image is on optical media or
> on USB...
> >>
> >>By default an optical disc is mounted on /media/cdrom and makes apt
> happy, whereas a USB flash drive is usually mounted elsewhere.
> >>
> >>> It does not get any updates in any case.
> >>
> >>IIRC, the issue is not when doing updates but when installing packages
> which are present in the original installation image and apt insists on
> using the installation media instead of the network repositories.
> >
> >We should not make a difference here: on the long term you will need
> sources.list entries, that work for the whole archive.
> >Still rely on an installation image as only source will not work for the
> long future.
> >You will for sure end up with the situation, where a package you need is
> not on the CD/DVD image, and then you have to switch to a debian online
> mirror anyway.
> >
> >Am I right with this, or do I miss something?
>
> The reasoning for the current setup has been:
>
>  * if you're installing from single CD / small image, then it's not
>useful after installation, so don't keep the sources.list entry
>
>  * if you're using a larger image (DVD/BD) etc. that might be part of
>a full set, keep the sources.list entry/entries - they include a
>fuller set of packages, maybe complete if you have the full set
>
> There is not a single good answer here. :-/
>
> --
> Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.
> st...@einval.com
> Dance like no one's watching. Encrypt like everyone is.
>  - @torproject
>
>

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Steve McIntyre]

Hey guys,

On Mon, Apr 07, 2025 at 11:04:49PM +0200, Holger Wansing wrote:
>
>Am 7. April 2025 20:23:09 MESZ schrieb Pascal Hambourg 
>:
>>On 07/04/2025 at 17:32, Holger Wansing wrote:
>>> 
>>> So, it's another report of "please disable the sources.list entries from 
>>> installation media, when installation is finished".
>>
>>Sort of. I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past.
>>
>>> But there's no difference, if the CD/DVD image is on optical media or on 
>>> USB...
>>
>>By default an optical disc is mounted on /media/cdrom and makes apt happy, 
>>whereas a USB flash drive is usually mounted elsewhere.
>>
>>> It does not get any updates in any case.
>>
>>IIRC, the issue is not when doing updates but when installing packages which 
>>are present in the original installation image and apt insists on using the 
>>installation media instead of the network repositories.
>
>We should not make a difference here: on the long term you will need 
>sources.list entries, that work for the whole archive.
>Still rely on an installation image as only source will not work for the long 
>future.
>You will for sure end up with the situation, where a package you need is not 
>on the CD/DVD image, and then you have to switch to a debian online mirror 
>anyway.
>
>Am I right with this, or do I miss something?

The reasoning for the current setup has been:

 * if you're installing from single CD / small image, then it's not
   useful after installation, so don't keep the sources.list entry

 * if you're using a larger image (DVD/BD) etc. that might be part of
   a full set, keep the sources.list entry/entries - they include a
   fuller set of packages, maybe complete if you have the full set

There is not a single good answer here. :-/

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Dance like no one's watching. Encrypt like everyone is.
 - @torproject

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Pascal Hambourg]

On 07/04/2025 at 17:32, Holger Wansing wrote:


So, it's another report of "please disable the sources.list entries from 
installation media, when installation is finished".


Sort of. I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past.


But there's no difference, if the CD/DVD image is on optical media or on USB...


By default an optical disc is mounted on /media/cdrom and makes apt 
happy, whereas a USB flash drive is usually mounted elsewhere.



It does not get any updates in any case.


IIRC, the issue is not when doing updates but when installing packages 
which are present in the original installation image and apt insists on 
using the installation media instead of the network repositories.

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Am 6. April 2025 23:58:41 MESZ schrieb Pascal Hambourg :
>[Private reply, but feel free to quote it publicly]
>
>Hi Holger,
>
>On 06/04/2025 at 00:20, Holger Wansing wrote:
>> On Sat, 5 Apr 2025 18:09:13 +0200 BW  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is the year 2025 and I can promise you that 99% of all installations
>>> are NOT performed from a CD/DVD media, but from USB flash/network or
>>> whatever, but NOT an optical media.
>>> 
>>> But still you have designed the installation for CD-ROM?
>>> 
>>> If I "burn" the installation-iso to a USB flash media and do an
>>> installation I will not able to do an "apt update" or install any packages,
>>> because CD-ROM is set to be main repository.
>>> I have to modify "/etc/apt/sources.list" to get a working system.
>>> I'm not saying it shouldn't be possible to do an installation the we did it
>>> in 1990, but please design the system to how 99% of all people actually
>>> install Debian today.
>> 
>> What you describe (installing packages inside the installer, but by hand, so
>> bypassing the installer)
>
>I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the submitter complains because 
>when you install from a DVD or larger installation image on a USB flash drive, 
>d-i (apt-setup) leaves the "cdrom:" entry in /etc/apt/sources.list enabled and 
>in first position, and as a result, after the installation apt will wait for a 
>non-existent CD-ROM when requested to install packages which are present in 
>the installation image.


Ah, I missunderstood that, it's not about installing additional packages within 
the installer, but in the installed system.
Now reading it again, it's indeed clear, but ... hmm, don't know, what drove me 
wrong.
Thanks for correcting me.


So, it's another report of "please disable the sources.list entries from 
installation media, when installation is finished".


But there's no difference, if the CD/DVD image is on optical media or on USB...
It does not get any updates in any case.



Holger



-- 
Sent from /e/ OS on Fairphone3

Bug#1102140: #1102140 CD-ROM is still first priority package repository in Test/Trixia

[Holger Wansing]

Hi BW,

1.
you filed this report against a non-existent package, so probably you don't get
a big audience, because of this.

2.
What you describe (installing packages inside the installer, but by hand, so
bypassing the installer) is not the usual way, so one may consider this being
a corner case.


So long
Holger



-- 
Holger Wansing 
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508  3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076