Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:29 PM, Richie Adler wrote: > > El 03/08/2018 a las 11:13, Warren Young escribió: > >> The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, >> either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. > > Is there a reason why you exclude POP3 from the "pulling”? Add it to the list and re-read the sentence. Does doing so falsify the sentence’s first clause? We could also include Exchange AciveSync, BBM, and MCI Mail in the list of email pull protocols. Where do you want to stop? My only point in that prior post is that email is rarely delivered directly to you, it’s usually pulled by the client making a connection out to some server first, which means Fossil Forums are working the same way. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
[Default] On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 10:29:11 -0400, Richard Hipp wrote: >On 8/2/18, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: >> >> I also enjoy mailing list. Hopefully some RSS way of >> subscribing/replying to the forum from a mail client will be provided >> and I will stay here as much as possible before subscribing to the >> forum. > > You will be able to receive all forum traffic by email, just like on a > mailing list. (Currently, you only get a notification link that you > have to click on to see the actual message. I intend to fix that - > but there are several other issues ahead of that one in line.) Excellent ! > For sending messages to the forum, however, you will need to visit the > website. I do not intend to accept forum traffic via inbound email, > as that leads to many spam filtering problems that I do not want to > have to deal with. Indeed, that was the whole point for creating the forum functionality, and I think in this way it is an adequate and workable solution. Thanks for your ongoing efforts. -- Regards, Kees Nuyt ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 8/3/18, Richard Hipp wrote: > On 8/3/18, Richie Adler wrote: >> El 03/08/2018 a las 11:13, Warren Young escribió: >> >>> The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull >>> emails, >>> either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. >> >> Is there a reason why you exclude POP3 from the "pulling"? > > I was just waiting for you to contribute that code, Richie ;-) I misread Richie's email, thinking it was directed at me. I therefore retract my snarky remark -- D. Richard Hipp [email protected] ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 8/3/18, Richie Adler wrote: > El 03/08/2018 a las 11:13, Warren Young escribió: > >> The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, >> either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. > > Is there a reason why you exclude POP3 from the "pulling"? I was just waiting for you to contribute that code, Richie ;-) -- D. Richard Hipp [email protected] ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
El 03/08/2018 a las 11:13, Warren Young escribió: > The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, > either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. Is there a reason why you exclude POP3 from the "pulling"? ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 03 2018, 15:25 UTC, Richard Hipp wrote: On 8/3/18, Pietro Cerutti wrote: The important point is of my sentence above is that *all* of my email is delivered to that single place where I can organize it. And so it shall be with the new forum. All forum messages will be delivered to you as email. You will need to visit the website in order to *send* new messages. But if you are merely listening, your workflow does not change. Yes - correctly threaded notifications including whole messages are going to be much appreciated! -- Pietro Cerutti signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 03 2018, 15:48 UTC, Warren Young wrote: While I don't doubt that a forum is a nice feature per se, I just think moving Fossil mailing lists to a forum is going to make drh's life easier by avoiding email spam at the cost of making anyone else's harder by decentralizing where one goes and reads his daily batch of news and by dismissing a well established way of interacting online. Since it’s drh doing the work, I’d say his needs and wishes matter most. FOSS is a do-ocracy: he who does the work makes the rules. Of course. I just was under the impression the doer was asking for feedback. Change is hard. Yup, but I think the time to argue against this particular change is over. Alright -- Pietro Cerutti signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 3, 2018, at 9:04 AM, Pietro Cerutti wrote: > > On Aug 03 2018, 14:13 UTC, Warren Young wrote: >> On Aug 2, 2018, at 2:57 AM, Pietro Cerutti wrote: >>> >>> The fundamental difference between email and web content, is that emails >>> are delivered to me >> >> Only if you run your own SMTP server. >> >> The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, >> either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. > > Don't take my words so strictly. Email are delivered to me, as in, to my > email client, be it a standalone executable or a web email interface. Then in that same spirit, Fossil forums traffic is also delivered to you, either by a) visiting the central Fossil instance; or b) visiting a Fossil instance that’s kept sync’d with that central instance; or c) subscribing to the Fossil repo’s RSS feed; or d) signing up for email notifications, which according to drh will soon contain the whole message content, at least optionally. >>> and once they are, they are mine. >> >> If you want a copy of all of the Fossil Forum traffic, you can just sync the >> forum repo. If you do it on the same schedule your mail client polls its >> IMAP server or whatever, then you have the data just as quickly. > > The important point is of my sentence above is that *all* of my email is > delivered to that single place where I can organize it. Do you subscribe to no other discussion forum than mailing lists? Your information inputs are not already fragmented? I’ve had at least two unrelated forum technologies to monitor at any given time since the late 1980s. Fossil/SQLite isn’t the first mover in this slow exodus from email, not by a long shot. Email was designed for a more civilized time on the Internet, when you could depend on things like ARPANet ToS agreements and local administration to solve problems. The current attempts to fix the email system’s problems are in part accelerating the exodus by making email software harder and harder to develop. One of my biggest arguments against this Fossil Forums feature — which has been discussed for years now — was all the work it’s going to end up taking to support enough of the various email-related protocol standards to reach a suitably large fraction of the end users. But, drh seems to feel it’s worth taking on, so I’m now going to support his efforts. > I can easily follow tens of mailing lists, because of this centrality of the > delivered information. Do you think your workflow is applicable to anybody > interested in following the discussions happening in more than 3 or 4 Fossil > forums? Create a bookmark folder in your browser of choice for all of the web forums you want to visit periodically, put it on the browser’s bookmarks bar, and then on the same schedule you currently check your email, hit whatever keystroke/mouse gesture it takes to open that folder’s bookmarks all at once. This is functionally little different than having an email client configured to sort mailing list traffic into separate local folders. > While I don't doubt that a forum is a nice feature per se, I just think > moving Fossil mailing lists to a forum is going to make drh's life easier by > avoiding email spam at the cost of making anyone else's harder by > decentralizing where one goes and reads his daily batch of news and by > dismissing a well established way of interacting online. Since it’s drh doing the work, I’d say his needs and wishes matter most. FOSS is a do-ocracy: he who does the work makes the rules. > Change is hard. Yup, but I think the time to argue against this particular change is over. The arguments were held over the past 2 or so years, both here and on the SQLite mailing list. I’ve been on both sides of it, but now that it’s over, I don’t see any point in continuing the angst. It is time to get through the new pains: development, debugging, and deployment! ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 8/3/18, Pietro Cerutti wrote: > The important point is of my sentence above is that *all* of my email is > delivered to that single place where I can organize it. And so it shall be with the new forum. All forum messages will be delivered to you as email. You will need to visit the website in order to *send* new messages. But if you are merely listening, your workflow does not change. -- D. Richard Hipp [email protected] ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 03 2018, 14:13 UTC, Warren Young wrote: On Aug 2, 2018, at 2:57 AM, Pietro Cerutti wrote: The fundamental difference between email and web content, is that emails are delivered to me Only if you run your own SMTP server. The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. Don't take my words so strictly. Email are delivered to me, as in, to my email client, be it a standalone executable or a web email interface. and once they are, they are mine. If you want a copy of all of the Fossil Forum traffic, you can just sync the forum repo. If you do it on the same schedule your mail client polls its IMAP server or whatever, then you have the data just as quickly. The important point is of my sentence above is that *all* of my email is delivered to that single place where I can organize it. I can easily follow tens of mailing lists, because of this centrality of the delivered information. Do you think your workflow is applicable to anybody interested in following the discussions happening in more than 3 or 4 Fossil forums? While I don't doubt that a forum is a nice feature per se, I just think moving Fossil mailing lists to a forum is going to make drh's life easier by avoiding email spam at the cost of making anyone else's harder by decentralizing where one goes and reads his daily batch of news and by dismissing a well established way of interacting online. Change is hard. I like mailing lists. I like to have my unread count near my Fossil mailbox each morning and go through emails. I don't think I'll ever adapt to visiting even a handful of fossil forums daily to get up to date with the discussions going on. -- Pietro Cerutti signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 8/2/18, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: > > I also enjoy mailing list. Hopefully some RSS way of > subscribing/replying to the forum from a mail client will be provided > and I will stay here as much as possible before subscribing to the > forum. You will be able to receive all forum traffic by email, just like on a mailing list. (Currently, you only get a notification link that you have to click on to see the actual message. I intend to fix that - but there are several other issues ahead of that one in line.) For sending messages to the forum, however, you will need to visit the website. I do not intend to accept forum traffic via inbound email, as that leads to many spam filtering problems that I do not want to have to deal with. -- D. Richard Hipp [email protected] ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 2, 2018, at 2:57 AM, Pietro Cerutti wrote: > > The fundamental difference between email and web content, is that emails are > delivered to me Only if you run your own SMTP server. The vast majority of mail users *do* go out and specifically pull emails, either via IMAP or by visiting a web mail interface of some kind. > and once they are, they are mine. If you want a copy of all of the Fossil Forum traffic, you can just sync the forum repo. If you do it on the same schedule your mail client polls its IMAP server or whatever, then you have the data just as quickly. Unlike most web forums, Fossil’s Merkle tree based storage mechanism means it’s very difficult to delete forum traffic from the server side before you get a copy. IMAP doesn’t give you that: someone who can get to your mail server can delete mail traffic before it’s delivered to you. Some people even call this a feature, calling it aggressive server-side spam filtering. With Fossil forums, once you’ve sync’d the current content, nothing the server can do will make your local Fossil instance delete it. In that respect, it is just as strong as IMAP. > I can store them, move them around You can store and move the Fossil forums repo around, too. > modify them as I like to apply tags and labels You can’t rewrite Fossil forum message content, but then I suspect you aren’t doing that to delivered mailing list traffic, either. As for labeling and such, Fossil is DBMS-backed, with a flexible web front end. The main limit on what you can make it do as far as mark-up and presentation of stored data goes is will and skill. > They are easy to access (IMAP) from many different places and different > devices Fossil can do that, too. That’s a large part of what it means for something to be a DVCS. > easy to search Fossil forums are backed by the SQLite FTS feature. > and standard. SQL and RSS are standards, too. Unlike with most web forum software, Fossil forums will allow you to pull your raw data back out at will. You could even build a Fossil forums to IMAP gateway, if you wanted. > the location where I go and pull might change over time I’m not quite sure what you mean here, so please confirm my guess: you mean that with mailing lists, you can unsubscribe with one email address and subscribe with another? One big reason you might do that is because your old email address has been overrun by spam, which is a large reason why this feature is being added to Fossil in the first place: with Fossil forums, there is no publicly-visible email address for the spammers to harvest. If instead you’re just observing that you change mail providers over time for other reasons, Fossil likewise doesn’t care which ISP you log into your account from to pull the data or post messages. With auto-registration, Fossil will let you have multiple identities on the forum server, either serially or concurrently. > And content itself might change over time (although this doesn't often happen > in fossil). Once a mailing list message is sent to your SMTP server, it is difficult for someone to change it, except in cases like my aggressive server-side filtering example above. Fossil falls on both sides of that line. On the one side of the line, it allows a posted message to be edited, just like a Fossil wiki article: the original version is always available, but mistakes can be fixed in the window between someone posting a message and others viewing it, reducing needless followup posts, confusion, and (yes!) loss of face. On the other, Fossil’s strong Merkle tree design means that it takes cooperative effort from all parties to actually modify or remove data from the repository. The edits I just spoke of don’t actually change old content, the new content is just substituted for the old content at the UI level only. > Devise a mechanism to allow replying to such an email and sync it with the > forum …and now you’ve got spammers again, which defeats a large part of the purpose of creating this new feature set. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
Hi, On 02/08/18 10:33, Jungle Boogie wrote: > I enjoy mailing lists, having a copy of the mail and being able to reply from > mutt (which I'm doing now), but I think what's been implemented within fossil > is > something we can all appreciate and find use of. A small project may not use > tickets, the wiki, or tech notes. That project probably won't have a mailing > list either. > Now there's another feature, for free, that they also may not use - a forum. I also enjoy mailing list. Hopefully some RSS way of subscribing/replying to the forum from a mail client will be provided and I will stay here as much as possible before subscribing to the forum. But i think that its a good addition to have in Fossil. Even for a small project, like the ones I admin in Fossil, I have found a use for several of its integrated features: files and tickets (mainly), wiki (before discovering embedded doc) and tech notes (in a minor way). Not that forum will be enabled, I foresee it as a welcomed feature for our projects. Cheers, Offray ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 2018-08-02 1:57 AM, Pietro Cerutti wrote: Send out the whole content of a post, and you'll have a mailing-list. Well, the distribution half of a mailing list anyway. Devise a mechanism to allow replying to such an email and sync it with the forum, and you'll have made a gian leap forwards in dismantling the web/email barricade. That's what most mailing lists (those with on-line archives) do. Visiting the archive is purely optional, it's there in case you didn't keep a message or just joined and want to read-up before asking "dumb" questions. However as others have mentioned having inbound email processing, unless very carefully handled, would defeat the initial purpose: to stop wasting drh's time dealing with spam, and particularly the annoying spam that was being sent directly to list members after they post. Not long ago I got several score of those based on a posting from years ago. For my part, as long as the notifications contain the message body text I'm fine with having to go to the web forum to reply. In answer to DD's caveat, I'm even fine with having to go to the forum to get context for the occasional post which needs it; but even in a forum where quoting when you reply is uncommon or unheard of, I find that I usually have enough context from just the emails. Shal Shal Farley Cheshire Engineering Corporation +1 626 303 1602 http://www.CheshireEng.com ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Thu 02 Aug 2018 6:03 PM, joerg van den hoff wrote: > > the specific _concern_ here is the contemplated shutdown of this mailing > list and mandatory(!) migration of all questions/discussions to the > planned/upcoming fossil-scm forum. if that's what going to happen: so be it. > but I would prefer otherwise. > Sure, I was providing a little history as of why/how/when the forum discussion started. As for migration, I'm sure Dr. Hipp will be a reasonable decision with the input he's been provided. Ultimately, though, the best way to test the feature out is to eat your own dog food. > > > >> br/joerg ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 02.08.18 17:33 , Jungle Boogie wrote: > On Thu 02 Aug 2018 11:02 AM, joerg van den hoff wrote: >> On 02.08.18 10:38, Steve Landers wrote:> On 31 Jul 2018, 9:47 PM +0800, >> Richard Hipp , wrote: I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there are any objections, voice them quickly. >>> >> >> I could easily envision a situation where the forum option would suit me >> fine for personal/small/modest projects where I also would actually _want_ >> to keep the whole communication with some colleagues as part of the project, >> and "foreign", bigger ones (fossil, tcl, sqlite, ...) where I most >> definitely would >> not be interested in doing that and also probably would prefer to use a >> mailing list acessed by a reasonable mail client that allows me to >> sort/delete/search/flag (and highlight unread) messages etc. more >> flexible/better (probably...) than what the forum functionality could >> reasonably provide. > > > > If folks will remember back just a couple months ago, this is kind of what > started this discussion. DRH shutdown the sqlite mailing list for a day or two > because of spam. During that time many folks disucssed forums, slack channels, > discord, irc, and of course, mailing lists. > > After the mailing list was patched, the discussion continued on about how > fossil, with a forum or some kind of email delivery system, could work better > with push/pull requests. Fossil bundles were discussed, but many folks still > wanted to see a github style pull request system with email notifications and > abilities to make comments within the fossil repo, aside from wikis, tech notes, > and tickets. Dr. Hipp quickly developed email notifications for commits to the > repo, and a few ways to store the emails. > > I enjoy mailing lists, having a copy of the mail and being able to reply from > mutt (which I'm doing now), but I think what's been implemented within fossil is > something we can all appreciate and find use of. A small project may not use > tickets, the wiki, or tech notes. That project probably won't have a mailing > list either. > Now there's another feature, for free, that they also may not use - a forum. from DRH's mail of july 31: "The intent is to replace this mailing list, as well as various other mailing lists (fossil-users, sqlite-users, sqlite-dev, sqlite-announce) with the new forum feature. I hope to shut down the mailing lists and bring the forums all live within about a week. So if you have concerns, voice them soon." that's it: the concern is not that there will be "another feature" (although: whether the forum feature is a desirable one, depends on circumstances/taste and whether "pollution" of the actual repo (and also the working copy) with the forum archive/db can be avoided if the user is not interested in carrying the forum archive around. IIRC, the forum content is going to reside in a separate db, which sure will help, but I actually would prefer if that db does not materialize in my checkout without a means/setting to prevent just that (or to empty it...). the specific _concern_ here is the contemplated shutdown of this mailing list and mandatory(!) migration of all questions/discussions to the planned/upcoming fossil-scm forum. if that's what going to happen: so be it. but I would prefer otherwise. > >> br/joerg > > > > Just my opinion on this subject. Please refer to the mailing list archive for a > more accurate account for the discussion, but this is how I remember it > happening/taking place. > ___ > fossil-users mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users > ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Thu 02 Aug 2018 11:02 AM, joerg van den hoff wrote: > On 02.08.18 10:38, Steve Landers wrote:> On 31 Jul 2018, 9:47 PM +0800, > Richard Hipp , wrote: > >> I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there > >> are any objections, voice them quickly. > > > > I could easily envision a situation where the forum option would suit me > fine for personal/small/modest projects where I also would actually _want_ > to keep the whole communication with some colleagues as part of the project, > and "foreign", bigger ones (fossil, tcl, sqlite, ...) where I most > definitely would > not be interested in doing that and also probably would prefer to use a > mailing list acessed by a reasonable mail client that allows me to > sort/delete/search/flag (and highlight unread) messages etc. more > flexible/better (probably...) than what the forum functionality could > reasonably provide. If folks will remember back just a couple months ago, this is kind of what started this discussion. DRH shutdown the sqlite mailing list for a day or two because of spam. During that time many folks disucssed forums, slack channels, discord, irc, and of course, mailing lists. After the mailing list was patched, the discussion continued on about how fossil, with a forum or some kind of email delivery system, could work better with push/pull requests. Fossil bundles were discussed, but many folks still wanted to see a github style pull request system with email notifications and abilities to make comments within the fossil repo, aside from wikis, tech notes, and tickets. Dr. Hipp quickly developed email notifications for commits to the repo, and a few ways to store the emails. I enjoy mailing lists, having a copy of the mail and being able to reply from mutt (which I'm doing now), but I think what's been implemented within fossil is something we can all appreciate and find use of. A small project may not use tickets, the wiki, or tech notes. That project probably won't have a mailing list either. Now there's another feature, for free, that they also may not use - a forum. > br/joerg Just my opinion on this subject. Please refer to the mailing list archive for a more accurate account for the discussion, but this is how I remember it happening/taking place. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
[Default] On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:57:44 +, Pietro Cerutti wrote: >> * Email notification is available for new forum posts. Currently, >> the alert emails contain a very brief synopsis of the post - >> essentially just the title. This can be enhanced later to provide the >> complete text of the post, if that is seen as desirable. > > This is a step forwards in making web content pushed to users. > > Send out the whole content of a post, and you'll have a mailing-list. > Devise a mechanism to allow replying to such an email and sync it with > the forum, and you'll have made a gian leap forwards in dismantling the > web/email barricade. Instead of an email reply, a link to the messge in the web forum so I can reply there would work for me. Just one step extra: forum signon. -- Regards, Kees Nuyt ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
As far as I remember it's not possible to delete a user account in Fossil. We used to have a forum here with 65,000+ members and sometimes hundreds of fake users registering each day (not robots, humans who completed the captcha), so having to deal with that kind of thing with fossil sounds scary if you cannot delete content and users. I didn't read anything about the ability to plug in an antispam into that forum, or any kind of rate-limiting either? I'm also against the closure of this mailing list. I can't check out every web forum out there every now and then, especially if they can't keep track of what messages I've read or not and what threads I've subscribed to. But if the forum becomes the only place to discussion fossil it would at least require the ability to subscribe to it by email and get all the messages in your mailbox, including their full contents. All in all, it is also a nice feature to have in Fossil but I think it doesn't seem ready for real-world use yet. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 10:57 AM Pietro Cerutti wrote: > On Jul 31 2018, 13:47 UTC, Richard Hipp wrote: > >I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there > >are any objections, voice them quickly. > > >* Email notification is available for new forum posts. > > Send out the whole content of a post, and you'll have a mailing-list. > Well, sure. But mail users will likely quote and reply in-line, to provide context. While forum users have the specific message they reply to just above, so are more likely not to quote or attribute prev poster, since it's right there above. So it's equivalent to top-posting IMHO, something frowned upon in MLs... > Devise a mechanism to allow replying to such an email and sync it with > the forum, and you'll have made a gian leap forwards in dismantling the > web/email barricade. > Agreed. But with the (big IMHO) caveat expressed above... --DD ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 02.08.18 10:38, Steve Landers wrote:> On 31 Jul 2018, 9:47 PM +0800, Richard Hipp , wrote: >> I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there >> are any objections, voice them quickly. > > An observation (not a criticism) is that (at its current state of development) the forum does not work too well on mobile devices. And so IMO it isn’t yet a replacement for the mailing list. >> Steve > having not followed the development/discussion too closely, admittedly, but regarding "forum vs. mailing list" for the fossil project itself (and in view of a couple of other comments having some misgivings regarding replacement of email by forum which I share) I would argue for running them in parallel for the foreseeable future so people can vote with their feet (or rather fingers/keyboards) what makes more sense to them for communication: mailing list or forum. I could easily envision a situation where the forum option would suit me fine for personal/small/modest projects where I also would actually _want_ to keep the whole communication with some colleagues as part of the project, and "foreign", bigger ones (fossil, tcl, sqlite, ...) where I most definitely would not be interested in doing that and also probably would prefer to use a mailing list acessed by a reasonable mail client that allows me to sort/delete/search/flag (and highlight unread) messages etc. more flexible/better (probably...) than what the forum functionality could reasonably provide. br/joerg ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Jul 31 2018, 13:47 UTC, Richard Hipp wrote: I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there are any objections, voice them quickly. The fundamental difference between email and web content, is that emails are delivered to me, and once they are, they are mine. I can store them, move them around, modify them as I like to apply tags and labels, to keep them organized and in line with my mindset and workflow. They are easy to access (IMAP) from many different places and different devices, easy to search, and standard. Web content is the negation of nearly everything above: it never "belongs" to me, and as a consequence I can not manage it as my own expect for a few basic things like saving the html file offline, printing it, or bookmarking a particular page. Email is pushed to me, while web content is something I need to go and pull. And the location where I go and pull might change over time. And content itself might change over time (although this doesn't often happen in fossil). * Email notification is available for new forum posts. Currently, the alert emails contain a very brief synopsis of the post - essentially just the title. This can be enhanced later to provide the complete text of the post, if that is seen as desirable. This is a step forwards in making web content pushed to users. Send out the whole content of a post, and you'll have a mailing-list. Devise a mechanism to allow replying to such an email and sync it with the forum, and you'll have made a gian leap forwards in dismantling the web/email barricade. I would love to see that. -- Pietro Cerutti signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 31 Jul 2018, 9:47 PM +0800, Richard Hipp , wrote: > I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there > are any objections, voice them quickly. An observation (not a criticism) is that (at its current state of development) the forum does not work too well on mobile devices. And so IMO it isn’t yet a replacement for the mailing list. Steve ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:29 AM, Dominique Devienne wrote: > > One of the features of a Mail User Agent is to track what was read or not. It should be straightforward to track “artifacts seen” on a per-user basis, then tag the HTML block-level elements when rendering the page so that the skin can style the elements appropriately. The skin could, for example, overlay 5% transparent black over all posts the user has already seen, so that the new (not-yet-seen) elements are in a higher contrast coloring. This could extend to the timeline as well. (That’s why you do this with transparent tinting over the existing coloring, by the way, rather than hard-code a pale gray background: because you can’t easily predict what the existing background color will be, and you wouldn’t want a bunch of nearly-identical CSS rules even if you could predict each background color in advance.) Since this solution is all-CSS, you’d then have the freedom to do the styling differently if you prefer. You could bold the subject line of threads that haven’t been opened, etc. You’d be limited only by your CSS fu. > And also many MUAs collapsed > older parts of the thread already read, while still allowing to re-expand > them, > as the user's choice. That may be possible in CSS as well. If not in pure CSS, then in CSS + JS for sure. All that’s needed are suitable styles on the block-level elements. > Some MUAs (GMail) use a strict time-based > ordering of the post, I’d be careful using Gmail as a comparison here, since it isn’t so much threaded as clumped, which makes it difficult to compare 1:1 to a threaded forum system like this new Fossil Forums feature. Still, I agree with the basic idea you’re expressing here, which I think I can express more simply: thread titles in the top-level /forum should be ordered by the date of the most recent post in the thread, not by the date of the first post. If a new post is made to an old thread, the whole thread pops to the top of the list. > Could a strict "flat" time-based ordering > be available, as an alternate view, replacing the in-reply-to nesting with > simply a link > to the replied-to post? You get that via /timeline if you show events of “Any Type” or “Forum”. If an alternate view is provided, then I guess some people will like a Gmail-like clumped view, but personally, I think that’s only useful on mobile, where horizontal screen space is especially precious. On a desktop browser, give me real threading any day. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 3:47 PM Richard Hipp wrote: > This message was originally posted on a test-forum at > https://fossil-scm.org/forumtest1/forumpost/10fe5ccbc8 - please > consider posting follow-ups there, as a test of the new forum system. > If you encounter problems, reply to this legacy mailing list, or > directly to me via private email. > One of the features of a Mail User Agent is to track what was read or not. This is especially useful in large threads. And also many MUAs collapsed older parts of the thread already read, while still allowing to re-expand them, as the user's choice. Do either of these important features exist in the new forum? I revisited the forums after a few days, and it doesn't appear to do either, no? Then there's the "timeline" of a thread. Some MUAs (GMail) use a strict time-based ordering of the post, while the forum is ordered by time at the top-level, but a in-reply-to post (B) is always below the post one's replying to (A), which means newer top-level posts newer than A, but older than B, will appear out-of-time-order, unlike in GMail. That's a major change for mailing list users. Could a strict "flat" time-based ordering be available, as an alternate view, replacing the in-reply-to nesting with simply a link to the replied-to post? Thanks, --DD ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
Also, despite the inconvenience of using a web browser, I anticipate that this feature will be very helpful for me. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
I am bad at using web browsers, so I am likely to read the forum less than I read this mailing list. On the other hand, I imagine that the reverse applies for other people. A corresponding email interface to the forum would of course resolve this, but I imagine that won't happen any time soon, so I suggest presenting an RSS feed of forum posts, including metadata about the parent posts. I will convert these to email, view them in my mail user agent (with correct threading), and then use the web browser only when I want to post. Indeed, the forum looks easier for me than most forums. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
On 7/31/18, Philip Bennefall wrote: > I am trying to register an account on the new forum, but am running into > an issue with the captcha. I am blind and so am using screen reading > software, and it won't read the captcha. Is there a way to either skip > the captcha, or get an audio challenge? This is an interesting problem, for which I do not have an immediately solution. There is no way to skip the captcha at this time. I will investigate further. Thanks for reporting the issue. -- D. Richard Hipp [email protected] ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
Re: [fossil-users] About to merge the forum-v2 branch
I am trying to register an account on the new forum, but am running into an issue with the captcha. I am blind and so am using screen reading software, and it won't read the captcha. Is there a way to either skip the captcha, or get an audio challenge? Browsing/reading posts on the forum seems straightforward enough, and it's far less cluttered than many other forum implementations out there. Nice work! Kind regards, Philip Bennefall On 7/31/2018 3:47 PM, Richard Hipp wrote: I am about ready to merge the forum-v2 branch into trunk. If there are any objections, voice them quickly. The forum-v2 branch implements a "forum" capability. Here is a quick summary: * Messages are organized into threads. The initial post of a thread contains a title. All subsequent posts omit the title, but have an in-reply-to field. * Passers-by can post anonymously, or (depending on the configuration) they can create a new account on-the-spot and post using their new account. The "self-register" feature has been in Fossil for ages out of mind. I forget who contributed it. (It did not come from me.) Self-registration has been seldom used before now, as far as I know. * Messages can be edited, either by the user who originally posted the message, or by an administrator. * Each message is an artifact, using a new artifact class called "Forum". See https://www.fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/forum-v2/www/fileformat.wiki#forum for a description. There are three new cards: G, H, and I. * Because each message is an artifact, forum content syncs just like everything else. * Forum message from untrusted users (ex: anonymous) can be held for moderation. Such messages are not synced nor may they be replied too, until they are approved by a moderator. * Email notification is available for new forum posts. Currently, the alert emails contain a very brief synopsis of the post - essentially just the title. This can be enhanced later to provide the complete text of the post, if that is seen as desirable. * Each forum message has a mimetype. Currently supported mimetypes are text/plain, text/markdown, and text/x-fossil-wiki. New mimetypes can be added later The intent is to replace this mailing list, as well as various other mailing lists (fossil-users, sqlite-users, sqlite-dev, sqlite-announce) with the new forum feature. I hope to shut down the mailing lists and bring the forums all live within about a week. So if you have concerns, voice them soon. This message was originally posted on a test-forum at https://fossil-scm.org/forumtest1/forumpost/10fe5ccbc8 - please consider posting follow-ups there, as a test of the new forum system. If you encounter problems, reply to this legacy mailing list, or directly to me via private email. ___ fossil-users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
