[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #20 from Lucas --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #15) > [...] > Suggestion here, and Lucas's RFC workup attachment 192543 [details], is to > refactor the handling of the per user or shared bibliographic DB, with > better ability to handle both the citation format and the footnote/endnote > bibliographic format and the DB record indexing needed to include references > with the ODF. > > Missing thus far are thought on integration of CSL support. Yes, I didn't mentioned the CSL, but it would one option of formatter/database. If I understood it right, the change to support the CSL will require modifications to the file format and a redesign of some of the dialogs. My suggestion is to make those changes in a way that can support multiple internal and external databases without the need of extensions. The prototype[1] shows this is viable. Under the hood, the prototype was constructed in such a way the mock document and mock dialog doesn't understand how to format the entry text and the reference text. They ask the mock formatter/database to do it. This shows that the insert/edit entry and the file format doesn't need to be tied to a specific formatter/database. If done that way, what will change between the internal database (with CSL), Zotero, Mendeley, EndNote and others is just the URL of the bibliographic database. [1]: https://lab104.github.io/LibreOfficeBiblio/prototype.html (src: https://github.com/lab104/LibreOfficeBiblio ) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #19 from Lucas --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #18) > @Lucas, thanks for revisiting this and remaining interested in contributing! > > Awesome conceptualizations as in comment 11, attachment 192543 [details], > and the demo video. Thanks for the feedback. > Would help clarify your intent of contribution if you would please go ahead > and submit a license statement: > > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Developers Done! I updated the licenses: - to the mailing list; - in the repository that contains the prototype and the document; - in the footnotes of the prototype itself. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added CC||[email protected] ||, [email protected], ||[email protected] --- Comment #18 from V Stuart Foote --- @Lucas, thanks for revisiting this and remaining interested in contributing! Awesome conceptualizations as in comment 11, attachment 192543, and the demo video. Would help clarify your intent of contribution if you would please go ahead and submit a license statement: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Developers -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #17 from V Stuart Foote --- OP responded PM... thanks! Sorry for the delay in the answer. I enabled the video again, same address: https://youtu.be/WP_D7JxR47A This video is just a presentation of the following prototype: https://lab104.github.io/LibreOfficeBiblio/prototype.html This is both a presentation and an experiment to see if what I am proposing is consistent. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15 ||3350 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda |.freedesktop.org|tion.org Keywords|needsDevAdvice, needsUXEval | Status|NEEDINFO|NEW --- Comment #16 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #15) > bug 153350 deals rather more with specifics of the GUI... At least we don't need UX input here too. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #15 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #14) > I wonder if this ticket duplicates bug 153350 (or in other words what makes > it different). And if we decided to make one of the two a duplicate, which > one given the good input here. bug 153350 deals rather more with specifics of the GUI, against the *current* limitations of the embedded bibliographic source. Suggestion here, and Lucas's RFC workup attachment 192543, is to refactor the handling of the per user or shared bibliographic DB, with better ability to handle both the citation format and the footnote/endnote bibliographic format and the DB record indexing needed to include references with the ODF. Missing thus far are thought on integration of CSL support. Implementing bug 153350 would be less involved without major refactoring of the current framework. Don't merge... @Lucas, your video comment 9 has dropped off. Are you able to compress and post it to the issue for reference? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Status|NEW |NEEDINFO --- Comment #14 from Heiko Tietze --- I wonder if this ticket duplicates bug 153350 (or in other words what makes it different). And if we decided to make one of the two a duplicate, which one given the good input here. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added See Also|https://bugs.documentfounda | |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16 | |1252| -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added CC||[email protected] --- Comment #13 from Heiko Tietze --- *** Bug 161252 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16 ||1252 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote --- (In reply to Lucas from comment #11) > > This was one of the points of my proposal. > A javaless/extensionless integration. +1, but implemented with ability to consume and reformat to ODF using CSL or we're back to limits of the current OOo era "bibliography" database. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #11 from Lucas --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #10) > If you need to explain it's not easy to understand :-) Actually, the video is more about the programming. I programmed a mini database/formatter and the dialog to validate that the concept is sound. But it allows to see the proposed dialog working. The abstraction is actually simple. The bibliographic database/formatter module will return the "Formatted Reference Label", the "Formatted Index Entry" and a "Duplicate Resolution Key" (which is a counter name). The index will use this information to resolve the conflicts and ask the database/formatter module to reformat the label/index entry with the appropriated resolution key. This is necessary because Author-Year bibliographic styles (such as APA and ABNT) require a counter to disambiguate two or more references of the same author in the same year. This also works for numeric bibliographic styles (such as IEEE) and for styles with an abbrev and a sequential. It took me two days to program this prototype. It is not that complicated. > But I think you tackle second level problems, > and I believe we should stick to the very basics. When you talked in consolidating the Enhancement Requests I thought the idea was to make the plan to achieve a more complete solution. > 3rd party tools provide all flexibility but have issues due to Java. > Personally I'd rather solve this than invent the wheel new This was one of the points of my proposal. A javaless/extensionless integration. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Lucas from comment #9) > Of course: Debate is important to refine the ideas. If you need to explain it's not easy to understand :-) Seriously, every change is an improvement. But I think you tackle second level problems, and I believe we should stick to the very basics. 1. Store entries in an internal database (exists but is ugly) 2. Insert entries into document 3. Generate bibliography 2. and 3. don't support different formats such as IEEE vs APA. 3rd party tools provide all flexibility but have issues due to Java. Personally I'd rather solve this than invent the wheel new. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #9 from Lucas --- (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #6) > I read over the text and collect some idea. Please don't take any of these > as a No, it's just what comes in mind while reading. Of course: Debate is important to refine the ideas. :) I made a exploratory prototype to validate the abstraction that may answer some of the questions. The video is at: https://youtu.be/WP_D7JxR47A -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 --- Comment #8 from Rafael Lima --- Implementing a full CSL processor would be a gigantic undertaking. It would also be hard to maintain over time. As for open-source CSL processors, we have a few options: https://citationstyles.org/developers/ Apparently citeproc-js is used by Mendeley / Zotero (in JavaScript). https://github.com/juris-m/citeproc-js -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||1958 --- Comment #7 from V Stuart Foote --- The RFC strawman is OK but lots of holes. Direction in LO really ought to be as with see also bug 121958 and the noted bug 121945--seamlessly integrate Citation Style Language (CSL) into LibreOffice to control of citation/bibliography and its application in response to CSL within field entries on an ODF document. Either some external API (e.g. Zotero's) or reimplement. Extension of ODF 1.3 index-entry-bibliography and its bibliography-data-field and bibliography-type will likely be needed. [1] =-ref-= [1] https://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/cs01/part3-schema/OpenDocument-v1.3-cs01-part3-schema.html#__RefHeading__1418764_253892949 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Heiko Tietze changed: What|Removed |Added Keywords||needsUXEval CC|heiko.tietze@documentfounda |libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tion.org|.freedesktop.org --- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze --- (In reply to Lucas from comment #5) > I looked into that and drafted a proposal to start this conversation. Awesome! Great work. I read over the text and collect some idea. Please don't take any of these as a No, it's just what comes in mind while reading. 2.1 Support to Author-Year bibliographic styles is desirable - and probably other styles as well 2.2 Support for back references is desirable - isn't this solved with the alphabetical index? I've never seen a combination with the bibliography 2.3 Support for hyperlink styles is desirable - "different colors for hyperlinks" - why would we need that? if it comes to different styles, ie. when to underline, sure 2.4 Better support for non-paged media, laws and regulation is desirable - isn't it a violation of references if you bloat the bibliography with no inline reference? 2.5 Better support for external bibliographic databases is desirable - desirable yes, but comments on https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2018/12/19/save-the-bibliography/ suggest to have at least a basic implementation 2.6 Better presentation of bibliography in the dialog combos 2.7 Bibliographic support on Presentations and Drawings is also desirable 3.1 At its core, the bibliography is just an index not unlike the table of contents - absolutely true, and perhaps we should start with this idea 3.2 Index management and bibliographic formatting can be easily separated 3.3 An advanced internal bibliographic database may be overkill and unnecessary - see 2.5; in theory we could just let Zotero and co handle all bibliography (IIRC they require Java) 4.1 Separate the index from formatting through an HTTP API - nice to have but unlikely the needed solution for 2.5; you give hints when it's not appropriate 4.2 The formatting will happen in the “Add/Edit Entry” dialog I think we should create a test document what Zotero and co would do, and try to make this happen with internal methods. If we then consider to enhance it with, for example, external/online sources nothing stops us (but I'd still prefer to let 3rd party tools handle the advanced use case). At least two of the many tickets regarding the bibliography discuss the topics from the UX POV (and I tagged it as need to add a mockup). Would be bug 153350 and bug 121958. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Lucas changed: What|Removed |Added Attachment #189312|0 |1 is obsolete|| --- Comment #5 from Lucas --- Created attachment 192543 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=192543&action=edit A new proposal to start the conversation (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3) > So perhaps consolidating the tickets makes sense. I looked into that and drafted a proposal to start this conversation. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 Lucas changed: What|Removed |Added CC||[email protected] --- Comment #4 from Lucas --- Created attachment 192539 --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=192539&action=edit Bibliography-mark Label change test (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3) > A question is if any implementation is > limited by the file format considering > cross-platform and -application compatibility. The contains the formatted label, but changing it on the XML file does nothing. LibreOffice Writer is ignoring the label inside the bibliography-mark. I suspect the file format will need a new version to instruct applications to use the label instead of recalculating it. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 QA Administrators changed: What|Removed |Added Whiteboard| QA:needsComment | -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12 ||1945 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 157064] Allow customization of the text reference style(s) from the bibliographic entry
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157064 V Stuart Foote changed: What|Removed |Added CC||[email protected] Summary|Allow customization of the |Allow customization of the |bibliographic entry text|text reference style(s) ||from the bibliographic ||entry -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
