Re: LS Lila and Lilith - Hindu and Semitic myths
Hi Miv, Rick, everyone > Jonathan wrote > >It's a pity that this thread has now degenerated into arguing about > >Pirsig's conscious and unconscious intent. I had hoped that we might > >learn something by exploring the myths themselves. > Firstly, I apologise if the above was patronizing to the people involved in the "argument". There is a genuine issue involved here; Miv makes the point quite forcefully. MIV > I think it is a mistake to assume that an action done unintentionaly, must > therfore arise from the unconscious. This assumption is based on a > psychological model of mind, which is not necessarily true, and may very > well be in conflict with the MOQ. [snip] > There is a very fine distinction, not always easy to make, between the > meaning that is found in the words, and the meaning that are given to them > by the reader. The act of reading is not passive. I heard an amusing illustration of this in an interview of Douglas Adams, author of the "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" and sequels. Those of you who read the books will remember that the main character is called Arthur Dent. Funnily enough, it tuns out that there was a Puritan author called Arthur Dent who wrote a book called "The Plain Man's Pathway to Heaven". http://www.sdgbooks.com/sdgbooks/1-877611-69-7.html tells us the following: 'This is one of the all-time Puritan devotional classics. John Bunyan spoke highly of this work, saying he found many things that were pleasing to him in it. It is another Puritan work using the pilgrimage motif, but few enjoyed the widespread popularity that this one did. It went through 25 editions by 1640, and 47 editions by 1831. ...ISBN 1-877611-69-7. Hardback, 332 pages." Douglas Adams modestly admitted that the coincidence in the book titles is completely fortuitous. He knew nothing about Arthur Dent the author before a reader pointed out the link. Considering the light-hearted nature of Adam's books, I am prepared to believe this. However, a new issue arises when RICK writes the following about Pirsig: >If by "Unaware" you mean that he had never heard of it who knows. But >if by unaware you mean it wasn't on his mind... then I reiterate the YOU ARE >WRONG By Pirsig's own words. He couldn't have said it anymore >straitfoward than he did... Lila is not drawn from the Vedas. Just like Phaedrus used Plato's own words to demolish Plato (and the Professor), Pirsig makes it clear later on in Lila that he has studied Hindu mysticism, giving us a celestial description of RTA, the Sanskrit root of the English words art, rite, right, rote and many others. Thus, Pirsig's choice of the name "Lila" is difficult to dismiss. RICK: <<>> Certainly worth considering, especially if Pirsig had revealed himself as a bible scholar. Back to MIV: > a. Did he intend the Hindu meaning? Well, if he didn't want the reader to make this connection, it was extremely careless to keep "Lila" as the name of the book. (BTW, CARELESSNESS would appear to be the exact antithesis of Quality in word and deed). RICK > Maimonaides, (a famous Jewish philospher of the middle ages) in a letter > about his book "A Guide to the Perplexed" (otherwise refered to as "The > Perplexer of Guides") speakes of "mistakes" that appear in a text. His point > of view is that there are two different kinds of mistakes: > 1. Simple negligence - quite common amongst common writers of common books. > 2. In some rare books, of the rare guides (the sages), those who chose every > word with care and deliberation, sometimes an "error" appears. These Errors > are there for the wise only. They are the hidden signs left by the author > for the seekers of truth to follow. > > May I suggest my point of view that: > A. RP is a writer of the second kind. > B. The thread is worth following, even if it means Questioning RP's > intentions in not telling us (or even himself) the whole truth about LILA. I agree completely where Lila="Divine Play" is concerned. Regarding the other meanings/connotation of the name > ... did any of you people know that LILA in Hebrew means NIGHT? and >"Lilith", the she-devil of Semitic I am willing to accept that Pirsig didn't know or care. about these meanings. Jonathan MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
Re: LS Lila and Lilith - Hindu and Semitic myths
Though Keith has expressed a request to end this thread, I feel that by naming it an argument we are making a mistake. Rick, Jonathan, Keith, please bare with me just a litle more, to explain my POV: Jonathan wrote >I cannot believe that RMP remained unaware of the Hindu Lila >while his manuscript was being prepared for publication (a long process, >involving lots of discussion and careful reading by author and >publisher). Furthermore, I would be extremely surprised if RMP's >attention was not drawn also to "Lilith", the she-devil of Semitic >mythology (even more relevant to the Lila character). If Pirsig didn't >want his readers to make these connections, he should have changed >Lila's name to something else. > >It's a pity that this thread has now degenerated into arguing about >Pirsig's conscious and unconscious intent. I had hoped that we might >learn something by exploring the myths themselves. I think it is a mistake to assume that an action done unintentionaly, must therfore arise from the unconscious. This assumption is based on a psychological model of mind, which is not necessarily true, and may very well be in conflict with the MOQ. The questions that arise over LILA's name are very relevant though: a. Did he intend the Hindu meaning? b. If not, was he anware of it? c. Does it make sense that he would miss such an obvious connection? d. Should we believe what he wrote (that he was anaware of the hindu meaning)? e. What motive might he have had for making such a statement? There is a very fine distinction, not always easy to make, between the meaning that is found in the words, and the meaning that are given to them by the reader. The act of reading is not passive. The reader must take part in the giving of meaning to the text. Therefore, I think that looking for the TRUE meaning of a name or a phrase is a bit fruitless. It may turn into an argument not unlike some quarrels common amongst certain religious circles over an interpertation of a biblical text. BTW - this reminds me, did any of you people know that LILA in hebrew means NIGHT? I don't want to attribute that meaning to RP because I am quite certain he is not familiar with the hebrew meaning, nor biblical text's for that matter - but it's an interesting anecdote. Maimonaides, (a famous Jewish philospher of the middle ages) in a letter about his book "A Guide to the Perplexed" (otherwise refered to as "The Perplexer of Guides") speakes of "mistakes" that appear in a text. His point of view is that there are two different kinds of mistakes: 1. Simple negligence - quite common amongst common writers of common books. 2. In some rare books, of the rare guides (the sages), those who chose every word with care and deliberation, sometimes an "error" appears. These Errors are there for the wise only. They are the hidden signs left by the author for the seekers of truth to follow. May I suggest my point of view that: A. RP is a writer of the second kind. B. The thread is worth following, even if it means Questioning RP's intentions in not telling us (or even himself) the whole truth about LILA. I speculate that he defies the Hindu meaning of LILA so that the we will not get "hooked" on the "divine play" meaning, and loose all other points of view. It is very important for him to distinguish LILA from any other philosophy, certainly the Hindu. Miv MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
Re: LS Lila and Lilith - Hindu and Semitic myths
(Note to Keith--- I just read this post from Jon today and had to respond, if you can't slip it through on the LS could you bump it over to the other list.) JON: >Thanks Keith for letting this thread go on, though regrettably you're > probably right that > > we're nearing the end of fruitful discussion on it. > > However, I'm reluctant to let Rick have the last word. > RICK: The feeling is quite mutual JON: > I find it a little harder to accept that Pirsig was unaware of the > Hindu Lila when he chose the name. > In the book, he shows careful attention to the origins and roots of > certain words (RTA) - surprising that he overlooked doing the same with > the name "Lila". RICK: If by "Unaware" you mean that he had never heard of it who knows. But if by unaware you mean it wasn't on his mind... then I reiterate the YOU ARE WRONG By Pirsig's own words. He couldn't have said it anymore straitfoward than he did... Lila is not drawn from the Vedas. > JON: Furthermore, I would be extremely surprised if RMP's > attention was not drawn also to "Lilith", the she-devil of Semitic > mythology (even more relevant to the Lila character). If Pirsig didn't > want his readers to make these connections, he should have changed > Lila's name to something else. RICK: Maybe, but if Pirsig had called her "Mary" you would have thought it was an allusion to the Virigin If he had called her "Eve" you would have said "Adam" If he had called her "Rebecca" you may have thought of Jacob's biblical wife... If he had called her "Jane" you might have claimed it was to represent how common she is if he had called her "Martha" you would have said "Washington"etc.etc. My point is that every name has connections in literature and antiquity Maybe you think Pirsig should have just made up a name from scratch... one with no previous connotations? It's all Good, Rick MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
