Dear Mark,
- Original Message -
From: "Mark Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Do you think Australian ISPs haven't tried to offer US-style
flat-rate services? Of course they have. And they get destroyed
in the marketplace.
Here's the thing that metering gives you: it stratifies the
marke
$quoted_author = "Tom Vest" ;
>
> Occasional rhetorical indulgences notwithstanding, I'm a pragmatist; an
> ever-rising upper limit that 99% of the population never ever notices is
> not much of a limit.
Sure it is. By knowing that no-one sharing the backhaul to the DSLAM at my
CO can afford t
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Geoff Huston) writes:
> Which is a roundabout way of saying that I'm very sceptical of Tom's
> exponential optimism in this particular area of infrastructure investment
> :-)
the internet often hasn't made good economic sense. consider the chewage
and swallowage of resources
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Tom Vest wrote:
Okay I concede that point; competition within markets with only metered
service options can be just as or even more vigorous then competition within
unmetered markets. But competition between metered and unmetered markets
tends to reward the latter, and com
On Jan 22, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Mark Newton wrote:
On 22/01/2008, at 3:59 PM, Tom Vest wrote:
When the cable is full or EOL'ed its owner should have earned
enough to build a new one at current market rates.
I believe that someone will be able to "build" (i.e., finance)
more, when/where mor
We've figured our customer base ranges between 8 to 12 kbps/customer.
Frank
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Alastair Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:09 AM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lessons from the AU model
Mark N
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
Your analogy is halting, but that's to be expected. I certainly wouldn't want
to pay more for the landlord to install metering everywhere. There is much
overhead in metering and billing on that.
I suspect you have never been a landlord or needed
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Sean Donelan wrote:
If there was one tenant that left the hot water running 24 hours, 7 days a
week; so other tenants complained they didn't get enough hot water. One
That has never happened to me. We have good enough infrastructure that one
tenant filling up their hot w
On 22/01/2008, at 7:30 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
I am also hesitant regarding billing when a person is being DDOS:ed.
How is that handled in .AU? I can see billing being done on outgoing
traffic from the customer because they can control that, but what
about incoming, the customer has
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
I know of places in my nick of the world where all those are flat-rate. When
the usage difference is small enough, metering is not effective.
Ahh, the key phrase is "usage difference is small enough."
Typical dorm here includes power, water, (gas
Or even Blue Security.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ben Butler
Sent: 22 January 2008 10:26
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Lessons from the AU model
Hi,
Regarding Dos filtering, I guess that really depends on whether we are
on
Sent: 22 January 2008 09:55
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lessons from the AU model
Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> Some claim that metering is 50% of cost in the telco industry, and I
> have no reason to doubt that. Staying out of metering saves money on
> all levels, less complex eq
Mark Newton wrote:
Despite the best efforts of some people to run their broadband
access at line rate, residential broadband is very much a
"CIR + burst" kind of service. All of our customers can burst
to line rate (they're paying for it, so they should be able to
get it). None of our custome
Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
Some claim that metering is 50% of cost in the telco industry, and I
have no reason to doubt that. Staying out of metering saves money on all
levels, less complex equipment, less supportcalls, less hassle with
billing.
I have to agree with this, although the figure
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> I am also hesitant regarding billing when a person is being DDOS:ed. How
> is that handled in .AU? I can see billing being done on outgoing traffic
> from the customer because they can control that, but what about incoming,
> the customer has only p
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Tom Vest wrote:
> But even assuming you manage to define a "reasonable" cap, how will
> you defend it against competitors, and how will you determine when &
> how to adjust it (presumably upwards) as the basket of "typical" user
> content and services gets beefier -- or will t
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mark Newton wrote:
Power is metered. Water is metered. Gas is metered. Heating
oil is metered. Even cable-TV is packaged so that you pay more
if you want to use more channels...
I know of places in my nick of the world where all those are flat-rate.
When the usage di
On 22/01/2008, at 3:59 PM, Tom Vest wrote:
When the cable is full or EOL'ed its owner should have earned
enough to build a new one at current market rates.
I believe that someone will be able to "build" (i.e., finance) more,
when/where more is required.
Faith-based network rollouts. Nea
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mark Newton wrote:
That means "unlimited" ISPs almost exclusively attract the
most voracious, least profitable, noisiest, most difficult
to support, loudest complaining customers. And the metered
ISPs cater for normal folks who aren't like that.
Ah, you've discovered our
Tom Vest wrote:
So if they don't have a billion or so dollars stored away somewhere,
they're
selling below replacement value.
With very few exceptions there's no "they"; the old "they" is gone, the
new "they" didn't take over until fairly recently, didn't bankroll the
original construction
On Jan 21, 2008, at 9:53 PM, Mark Newton wrote:
On 22/01/2008, at 10:21 AM, Tom Vest wrote:
On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Mark Newton wrote:
It goes a bit deeper than that when the monopoly can compound the
problem my artificially constraining capacity by underspending on
infrastructure (e.
Here it stands for Multilateral peering, so in simplistic terms it
means you peer with everyone at an exchange. A route server.
My issue isn't that they exist (and in fact one network I maintain is
a member of three MLPs.) The issue is compelling people to join the
MLP. This dissuades
lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"Randy Bush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"Andy Davidson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"Andrew Odlyzko"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lessons from the AU model
On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Mark Newton wrote:
On 21/0
On 22/01/2008, at 10:21 AM, Tom Vest wrote:
On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Mark Newton wrote:
It goes a bit deeper than that when the monopoly can compound the
problem my artificially constraining capacity by underspending on
infrastructure (e.g., only lighting one pair on a multi-pair cable)
On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Mark Newton wrote:
On 21/01/2008, at 10:49 PM, Tom Vest wrote:
In the absence of competition (and esp. in the presence of risk of
empowering competitive entrants), supply has no general/necessary
effect on prices at all.
So excess capacity of a product that i
On 21/01/2008, at 10:49 PM, Tom Vest wrote:
In the absence of competition (and esp. in the presence of risk of
empowering competitive entrants), supply has no general/necessary
effect on prices at all.
So excess capacity of a product that is completely monopolized (or
priced by cartel fia
$quoted_author = "Andy Davidson" ;
>
> I'm really happy for you to sell me some transit as long as I can peer with
> you over MLP as well. Small commit. I agree to give you some of my
> prefixes over the paid session, but I'm going to put all of my routes and
> my customer's routes on the MLP
FWIW..
http://nanog.cluepon.net/index.php/NANOG_Glossary
=JeffH
alf Of
Matthew Moyle-Croft
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 8:54 PM
To: Geoff Huston
Cc: Randy Bush; Andy Davidson; Andrew Odlyzko; nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lessons from the AU model
>
> Southern Cross cost some US $1B to construct about a decade ago
RFS was Nov 2001. They full paid the debt
And DFZ yields either Duty Free Zone or the ticker symbol for
Rg Barry Corp. It took me two weeks to figure out PI (Provider
Independent, related to address assignments by a registry.)
The FAQ has no mention of a glossary, but it needs to.
Dale, AS 26424
>From: Marshall Eubanks <[EMAIL PROT
On Mon, Jan 21, 2008, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
>
> OK, I give and admit my ignorance. What does "MLP" mean in this
> context ?
>
> A google search for "Australia mlp" reveals many hits for "My Little
> Pony,"
> which somehow I doubt is the intended meaning on this list.
>
> A proper referenc
On 21 Jan 2008, at 14:02, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
OK, I give and admit my ignorance. What does "MLP" mean in this
context ?
A google search for "Australia mlp" reveals many hits for "My Little
Pony,"
which somehow I doubt is the intended meaning on this list.
Smile...
Here it stands f
OK, I give and admit my ignorance. What does "MLP" mean in this
context ?
A google search for "Australia mlp" reveals many hits for "My Little
Pony,"
which somehow I doubt is the intended meaning on this list.
A proper reference would be appreciated.
Regards
Marshall
On Jan 21, 2008, a
On 21 Jan 2008, at 01:43, Martin Barry wrote:
$quoted_author = "Andy Davidson" ;
.. think about what happens when your customers' routes start
appearing
through your MLP session as well.
Standard practice would be to localpref customer routes over peering
routes.[...] The customer's inbou
te: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:10:16
To:Geoff Huston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:Matthew Moyle-Croft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Randy Bush
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Andy Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Andrew Odlyzko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: Lessons from the A
On Sun, January 20, 2008 11:40 pm, Andy Davidson wrote:
> Thanks to the pricing model imposed on last-mile connectivity imposed
> by the incumbent, it costs an ISP US$471/Mbit to send data to my
> customer[1]. Maybe the same data that's just come all the way from Oz
> through my transit for US$1
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Tom Vest wrote:
Let's "hear it" for some of them. Let's "give it" to some of the others.
Yep, I was just commenting on the tendency of folks to personalize heroes
and villians.
There were probably lots of different factors and people involved in
both the Australian and
t's paying the price.
Here endth the Nanog lesson in economics from me ( :-) )
My only point in entering this thread was to make the observations
that the lessons from the AU model may not be very generic - small
isolated communities often have a unique set of constraints for
inv
On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 01:20:12PM +1100, Geoff Huston wrote:
>
> Randy Bush wrote:
> >
> >and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco with
> >a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt by an
> >arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
>
> I don't know ab
On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 10:46:58AM +1030, Matthew Moyle-Croft wrote:
>
> The cost is getting out of Oz. Once you get to Japan (Australia Japan
> Cable) then it's not that expensive (heck cable station to Tokyo is more
> than cable station to USA).
>
> Currently there are 3 cable systems ou
the consumer ends up paying for the inefficiency in infrastructure
investment. So sometimes it is cheaper to lease than construct, and
sometimes its not.
Here endth the Nanog lesson in economics from me ( :-) )
My only point in entering this thread was to make the observations that
the lessons f
On Jan 20, 2008, at 9:36 PM, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Randy Bush wrote:
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco
with a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt
by an arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
And Japan had the ar
On Mon, Jan 21, 2008, Mark Newton wrote:
> We don't really have a lot of ratio-limit issues over here. Nobody
> is going to say, "Our traffic is way imbalanced so I'm not peering
> with you anymore," when transit costs hundreds of bucks per megabit.
.. its starting.
Adrian
Southern Cross cost some US $1B to construct about a decade ago
RFS was Nov 2001. They full paid the debt from a US$1.3B cost of
construction in Oct 2005.
(see
http://www.southerncrosscables.com/public/News/newsdetail.cfm?StoryID=14)
So, they're making some VERY decent money out of the d
On 21/01/2008, at 12:43 PM, Martin Barry wrote:
This was basically setting up the next comment which was in relation
to how
this situation ("my customer is now at a multi-lateral peering point
I'm on")
is not really an issue as far as the bean-counters are concerned.
Unless any
ratio lim
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Randy Bush wrote:
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco with a
rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt by an
arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
And Japan had the arch-capitalist with a silver tongue, Masayoshi Son,
to wh
Geoff Huston wrote:
Randy Bush wrote:
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco
with a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt by
an arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
I don't know about that. However, I do know that relatively small
isolate
Randy Bush wrote:
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco with
a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt by an
arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
I don't know about that. However, I do know that relatively small
isolated communities in the
$quoted_author = "Randy Bush" ;
>
>> Likely to result in assymetric routing as the customer prefers peering
>> routes over transit.
>
> omg! asymmetric routing on the internet! world at eleven, end of news
> predicted! :)
:)
This was basically setting up the next comment which was in relatio
On Mon, Jan 21, 2008, Andy Davidson wrote:
> >Peering in Oz is MLPA. This leads to no one worrying about having
> >to be found to form peering relationships, so peeringdb is
> >incomplete at best. I've tried to encourage people to add their
> >data in.
>
> Is it always compulsory ? (I
Standard practice would be to localpref customer routes over peering routes.
unless unusual agreements exist with peers, this is pretty much normal
config everywhere ever since vaf whacked asp and me in '96. otherwise,
if you peer multiple places, the peer sees inconsistent routes, which
u
$quoted_author = "Andy Davidson" ;
>
> .. think about what happens when your customers' routes start appearing
> through your MLP session as well.
Standard practice would be to localpref customer routes over peering routes.
Likely to result in assymetric routing as the customer prefers peering
Andy Davidson wrote:
On 21 Jan 2008, at 00:16, Matthew Moyle-Croft wrote:
Andy Davidson wrote:
- Am I peering widely enough ? Should I actually be stuffing a
switch under the floor in my employer's suite and letting my buddies
plug in ? Peeringdb knows about eight exchanges in a develop
On 21 Jan 2008, at 00:16, Matthew Moyle-Croft wrote:
Andy Davidson wrote:
- Am I peering widely enough ? Should I actually be stuffing a
switch under the floor in my employer's suite and letting my
buddies plug in ? Peeringdb knows about eight exchanges in a
developed economy of 20 mil
On 21/01/2008, at 11:02 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco
with a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt
by an arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
It used to, but not so much now.
The access tail price is still
and pricing in australia had nothing to do with a monopilist telco with
a rapacious plan highly well articulated and sold to the govt by an
arch-capitalist with a silver tongue?
randy
- What's my traffic to south Asia and the other apnic regions ? Can
I save some money buying *partial* routes from a large player in this
region. Or is the problem that actually it's the transport to
*anywhere* out of Australia ?
The cost is getting out of Oz. Once you get to Japan (Aust
Hi,
On 20 Jan 2008, at 16:37, Andrew Odlyzko wrote:
The more sensible end of town pays about $80 per month for about 40
Gbytes of quota, give or take, depending on the ISP. After that
they get shaped to 64 kbps unless they want to pay more for more
quota.
I replied offlist to Andrew wi
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