Since I have been actively involved in this issue (testimony before Senate Judiciary Committe, House Dems' opposition press conference, dozens of radio call-in programs [esp. urban minority stations], aggressive oped which received a response from the White House's National Economic Council
I mainly agree with you and not Doug on this, and anyway fact sheets and
bulletins and letter writing campaigns are what we have just now. We really
can do something to slow the juggernaut, if only we will. How about this, it
isn't much, but it's a bit. Nathan and I and others who track judici
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Nathan Newman wrote:
>A lot of people rightly condemned the Dems in the Senate who rolled over on
>the Bankruptcy Bill, but where was the discussion on designing the best
>counter-propaganda against the credit card industry?
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-Nathan, while I disagree with your political strategy, your political work
-was the key factor in stopping the California State University system from
-giving away its high-tech infrastructure. Moreover, nobody should in
> By all means, organize the left. I just don't think that will make much
> progress organizing on an e-mail list.
>
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA 95929
>
> Tel. 530-898-5321
> E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Um, Seattle.
Nathan, while I disagree with your political strategy, your political work
was the key factor in stopping the California State University system from
giving away its high-tech infrastructure. Moreover, nobody should insult
you for your politics on this list.
For the life of me, I cannot figure o
The difference between discussing the issues and debating sectarianism is
that I hope that we would learn something from the former. I do not think
that the prospects of learning from debating the second are very high.
I do not think that we will be able to predict the future, but I think
that a
IL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:04 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9570] Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialism & American Workers (was Re:
ergonomics, etc.)
By all means, organize the left. I just don't think that will make much
progress organizing on an e-mail list.
Nathan Newman wrote:
>
> M
[PEN-L:9559] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
> At 12:45 PM 3/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >They could overdo it. But, most people do not
> >even know what they are doing. It is a successful
> >stealth campaign so far.
>
> yeah, but I'm trying to intu
>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 5:25 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9558] Re: Re: Socialism & American Workers (was Re:
ergonomics, etc.)
> Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would
like
> to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/26/01 05:28PM >>>
> To Brad: It is only the Nader voters in New Hampshire
>and Florida that could have made any difference. In no
>other states were there enough of them to sway the
>outcome. So, go ahead and pick on the ones in those
>states if you want to...
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would
like
>to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to today. Remember how
Volcker
>was able to turn it around by merely loosening the monetary sp
At 12:45 PM 3/26/01 -0500, you wrote:
>They could overdo it. But, most people do not
>even know what they are doing. It is a successful
>stealth campaign so far.
yeah, but I'm trying to intuit future trends.
> As for North Korea, they are probably right that
>the DPRK will not outright i
Debating who is and is not sectarian is absolutely unproductive. I would like
to hear more about the 1982 downturn compared to today. Remember how Volcker
was able to turn it around by merely loosening the monetary spigot. Will
Greenspan's rate cuts cause a turnaround in six months. What about
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>As Doug notes, essentially yes.
>
>Even among contemporary explicit Communists, the assertion that no real
>socialist supports the Dems is almost definitionally a sectarian position -
>which of course means that for all Lou
and even China, not to mention lots of other places.
Barkley Rosser
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9546] Re: Re: Re: Socialism & American Workers (was Re:
er
>As Doug notes, essentially yes.
>
>Even among contemporary explicit Communists, the assertion that no real
>socialist supports the Dems is almost definitionally a sectarian position -
>which of course means that for all Lou calls for non-sectarianism, he
>continues to promote it.
I believe you h
- Original Message -
From: "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Nathan,
> I've just been calling for forgetting about 2000.
>But, just for the record, was it not the case that the
>CPUSA actually supported voting for Gore?
>Barkley Rosser
As Doug notes, essentially yes.
Ev
>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 11:25 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:9524] Re: Socialism & American Workers (was Re: ergonomics,
etc.)
> - Original Message -
> From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Meanwhile, we work on reforms while getting out a
> >re
sage -
From: "Jim Devine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9528] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
> Barkley wrote:
> >... nobody should be under any illusions whatsoever. The Bush
> &
Barkley wrote:
>... nobody should be under any illusions whatsoever. The Bush
>administration is turning out to be far far worse than anybody forecast
>and certainly far worse than a Gore administration would have been. And it
>will negatively impact many people in the rest
>of the world, I am
the world which can just go to hell.
Barkley Rosser
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 2:35 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9460] Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
> Yea Doug, a typical American reply. It ain't us
mplex that needs
North Korea as a "rogue state" to justify the NMD.
Barkley Rosser
- Original Message -
From: "Brad DeLong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 1:07 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9451] Re: Demicans or Repugnocrats (
ject: [PEN-L:9458] Re: Re: Demicans or Repugnocrats (was: ergonomics,
etc.
> Can Bush be any worse for the rest of the world than Clinton/Gore?
> If so in what way. Will the civilians of Yugoslavia and Iraq be any
> less fearful of their lives? Will the peasants of Columbia be more
>
- Original Message -
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Meanwhile, we work on reforms while getting out a
>revolutionary message at the same time. Otherwise, we end up being
>not so different from Brad, Nathan, & other supporters of the
>Democratic Party, except in our self ima
Yoshie:
>Theorizing is absolutely important, but given the drift of the
>comments on American workers in some recent PEN-l posts, I'm afraid
>that some Marxists are often tempted to *theorize* American workers'
>revolutionary potential *out of the political window* -- unless the
>Second Coming
Lou says:
>Marx and Engels were not always involved in
>party-building. Sometimes, especially during an ebb in the class struggle,
>they would concentrate on theorizing about the state of the movement and
>what to do next.
Theorizing is absolutely important, but given the drift of the
comments
Yoshie:
>That's no reason to give up, unless you agree with Brad, Nathan,
>etc., which you don't.
Give up on what? If you'll recall from the time you were on the Marxism
list, Jose Perez explained that Marx and Engels were not always involved in
party-building. Sometimes, especially during an eb
I agree that Brad has a cogent critique. The problem is that he has
repeated it any number of times. I myself just made the mistake of
responding. I was wrong.
I don't mind disagreement all. I probably don't agree with one percent of
what David S. believes, except -- from what I infer from hi
Lou says:
>Yoshie:
>>American workers -- even in the midst of neoliberal capitalism's best
>>boom times ever -- were not as comfortable as many PEN-l posters
>>imagine them to be (and now the boom is practically over -- we only
>>wonder how bad & how long the coming recession will be). Therefore
Yoshie:
>American workers -- even in the midst of neoliberal capitalism's best
>boom times ever -- were not as comfortable as many PEN-l posters
>imagine them to be (and now the boom is practically over -- we only
>wonder how bad & how long the coming recession will be). Therefore,
>I conclud
Given that Brad has a cogent critique that he is willing to explain and
unpack in response to challenges, this is yet another abuse of
moderating authority. I have no idea what this list is for any more,
save idle chat among the like-minded. Every time a discussion gets into
any critical depth,
> Brad, that 3 percent of the vote was enough to sink the Gore campaign is a sad
commentary on what the Democrats had to offer. With regard to voting for Nader at no
cost
to Gore, Nader voters in California certainly had no effect and knew it before hand.<
right! It's like those Democrats who d
Brad, that 3 percent of the vote was enough to sink the Gore campaign is a
sad commentary on what the Democrats had to offer. With regard to voting for
Nader at no cost to Gore, Nader voters in California certainly had no effect
and knew it before hand.
With regard to the dimes worth of differe
At 3:18 PM -0600 3/25/01, Ken Hanly wrote:
>As long as capitalism is able to provide a degree of prosperity for
>a significant part of the working class there is almost no hope of a
>left alternative to the left of Nathan and/or Brad. The valid point
>in Paul's remarks is that as long as the th
>We picked up our daughter yesterday. I am just now of wading through a
>ton of e-mail.
>
>The tone of this thread is pretty bad. Too much noise relative to the
>signal. It's too late to point fingers at its origins.
>
>So for now let us just stop it. No more recriminations.
>
>Canada is bad.
e sent: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:02:05 -0500
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Priority: Normal
Subject:[PEN-L:9466] Re: Re: Re: Demicans or Repugnocrats (was:
ergonomics, etc.
> A healthy US economy would benefit the world's poor. A Gore
> Adm
Comments are after different sections
- Original Message -
From: Andrew Hagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
, etc.
> A healthy US economy would benefit the world's poor. A Gore
> Administration would been far more deft in its handling of the current
> economic crisis. They would have brought in p
We picked up our daughter yesterday. I am just now of wading through a
ton of e-mail.
The tone of this thread is pretty bad. Too much noise relative to the
signal. It's too late to point fingers at its origins.
So for now let us just stop it. No more recriminations.
Canada is bad. Nader is
1 1:48 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9465] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
>
> Yes, but in your reply to Doug's transparently sarcastic remark on
> Candaian innocence, you seem to be taking Doug as an ardent defender of US
> foreign policy...
> Doug's displeasure, if I
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:40:12 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
>American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
>disease and death since they have been supporting governments
>and policies that have been prescribing such medicine
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:44:52 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>So Canadians are responsible for this? Get a life Doug. What the
>collapse of the American economy will do is discredit American
>imperialism through the rest of the world thereby improving the long
>run prospects of the rest of th
A healthy US economy would benefit the world's poor. A Gore
Administration would been far more deft in its handling of the current
economic crisis. They would have brought in people with actual civil
service experience, for example. Fiscal policy is a good concrete
example. Reduced taxation on mid
>
> Date sent:Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:47:23 -0500
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [PEN-L:9456] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
> Send reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Henwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Nathan Newman wrote:
>For those who will suffer in pain from RSI injuries without compensation,
>those losses will be very real.
-Good thing Clinton set right into addressing that problem from his
-first day in office, until
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Yea Doug, a typical American reply. It ain't us, it is all you
> foreigners.
Hold it, now where did Doug say that? Not even close.
Doug writes,
> A couple of more questions occurred to me while I was in the shower.
> Do the 32 million members of the U.S. working class who live in
> officially defined poverty deserve their fate? Or worse? How about
> the 20-30 million more who live close to poverty? How about the - I'm
>
-0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:[PEN-L:9456] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Second, I would ask Doug why we s
he US. Kyoto, etc. the US record
is simply disgusting.
Paul Phillips
Date sent: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:53:12 -0500
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject:[PEN-L:9457] Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
Se
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
>American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
>disease and death since they have been supporting governments
>and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
>of the world.
A couple
Can Bush be any worse for the rest of the world than Clinton/Gore?
If so in what way. Will the civilians of Yugoslavia and Iraq be any
less fearful of their lives? Will the peasants of Columbia be more
fearful for their lives? Will Canadians fear more for the loss of their
jobs, pollution
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
>American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
>disease and death since they have been supporting governments
>and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
>of the world.
The more
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Second, I would ask Doug why we shouldn't hope that the
>American working class doesn't get hammered into poverty,
>disease and death since they have been supporting governments
>and policies that have been prescribing such medicine for the rest
>of the world.
While Can
There have been a number of threads recently on Pen-l which
reflect the super-nationalist navel gazing of Americans.
First, I would ask Brad De Long. If he had a ballot for president
that included Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Ramsey McDonald,
who would he vote for?
Second, I would as
Nathan Newman wrote:
>For those who will suffer in pain from RSI injuries without compensation,
>those losses will be very real.
Good thing Clinton set right into addressing that problem from his
first day in office, until waiting til the last minute, when he was
distracted by the urgent matte
On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Doug Henwood wrote:
> Mark Laffey wrote:
>
> >What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
> >That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
> >people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
>...the costs of not trying, which is what you recommend, are the
>same as the costs of failing.
You can think better than that.
First of all, there are lots of ways of trying which do *not* involve
handing elections and offices on a platter to the right-wing
candidate.
Second, the costs of
Mark Laffey wrote:
>What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
>That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
>people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
>correct question to ask. Nader voters may simply h
nce reform, social
justice etc...
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:9443] Re: Demicans or Repugnocrats (was: ergonomics, etc.
> Why do we have to rehash the qu
- Original Message -
From: "Shane Mage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have supported
>Vice>President Al Gore had Nader not been on the ticket. Thirty percent
>said they
>would not have voted and the rest would have gone for Bush.
>
>In Florid
Why do we have to rehash the question of the two-party system? PEN-L'ers
have made up their minds on this question long ago. It seems to me that a
mailing list can best be used to provide new information that will people
to form their own opinions.
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing list: http://www.m
Brad, this is old ground. You think we cannot get beyond the Demicans. We
are just stuck with them. You don't think that is too bad, because you
think they are bascally OK; you haven't a fundamental objection to the way
things are run. You'd like more social democracy, but basically, it suit
Nathan wrote:
>...It just does not cut it to argue that Nader voters did not help elect
>Bush
We could only have "helped elect" Bush if Bush had in fact been elected.
Which, of course, was the opposite of what happened...
>National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have suppor
>National exit polls said that half of Nader voters would have supported Vice
>President Al Gore had Nader not been on the ticket. Thirty percent said they
>would not have voted and the rest would have gone for Bush.
Oh, you are bringing in *facts*. You do understand that that isn't
allowed her
>But the idea that the left cannot be taken for granted is profoundly
>frightening to Dems.
And profoundly heart-gladdening for Republicans.
>The idea that we might be able to exercise real power is absolutely
>terrifying. If we are to put together a winning party, it means
>taking votes from
-
From: "Mark Laffey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 5:09 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:9436] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ergonomics, etc.
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show t
Hey, Mark, don't bother. The Demicans can't face up to the fact that they
lost because they ran like Repugs, as well as running a generally sorry,
suckass candidate who blew what should have been a sure thing, and they are
deeply resentful because they think they own the votes of the left. The
What evidence is there that Nader voters were in fact potential Gore voters?
That is, is there any data to show that had Nader not been an option, the
people who voted for him would have voted for Gore? Surely that is the
correct question to ask. Nader voters may simply have stayed at home rathe
> Except that Dubya is opposed to ergonomic rules. Nader is supposed to
> like them--but he likes being a publicity hound more...
>
>
> Brad DeLong
*
Apologies, Michael.
Brad, grow up. Your Ivy League edumakation is showing.
Ian
> >
>> And Nader was in their pitching, telling self-identified Democrats
>> not to vote for Gore...
>>
>>
>> Brad DeLong
>
>
>As was 'Dubya; welcome to the world of free speech.
>
>Ian
Except that Dubya is opposed to ergonomic rules. Nader is supposed to
like them--but he likes bein
> >>Brad DeLong wrote:
>>>
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
>>>
>>>No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
>>>Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
>>>governor of Texas.
>>>
>>>Doug
>>
>>And Nader was in thei
Shane Mage wrote:
>Is it Nader's fault that the Gore-Clinton administration delayed,
>obviously with intention, the promulgation of regulations vitally
>important to working people, until their concessionary though fraudulent
>successor could undo them with a stroke of the pen?
no. Further, it
>>Brad DeLong wrote:
>>
>>>Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
>>
>>No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
>>Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
>>governor of Texas.
>>
>>Doug
>
>And Nader was in their pitching, t
>
> And Nader was in their pitching, telling self-identified Democrats
> not to vote for Gore...
>
>
> Brad DeLong
As was 'Dubya; welcome to the world of free speech.
Ian
>Brad DeLong wrote:
>
>>Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
>
>No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
>Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
>governor of Texas.
>
>Doug
And Nader was in their pitching, telling se
The regs were initially proposed by the Repugs, under Eliz Dole's
Secretaryship at Labor, during the reign of Bush I. --jks
>though I don't want to get into this Nader/Gore
>debate, it must be said that Clinton handled these
>executive orders in his characteristically cute
>and opportunistic wa
though I don't want to get into this Nader/Gore
debate, it must be said that Clinton handled these
executive orders in his characteristically cute
and opportunistic way. He waited until the
election was over, so as not to upset donors,
then rushed the ergonomics and forest protection
rules thro
I wrote:
>>George Dubya, the titular head of the US state, recently got headlines by
>>okaying the veto by Congress of Clinton-era ergonomic rules in the
>>workplace. I wonder: isn't part of this reversal Clinton's fault? After
>>all, Big Bill left this proposal to the end of his years, so tha
Brad DeLong wrote:
>Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
No, from Al Gore. If as many self-identified Democrats had voted for
Gore as self-identified Republicans voted for Bush, W would still be
governor of Texas.
Doug
Brad DeLong wrote:
Don't go grasping for straws, and never underestimate the effects of
total disorganization. Had Big Al been elected, the Clinton-era
ergonomic rules would still have been set out, and would stand.
Yet another blessing we have received from Ralph Nader...
=
If it hadn't
>George Dubya, the titular head of the US state, recently got
>headlines by okaying the veto by Congress of Clinton-era ergonomic
>rules in the workplace. I wonder: isn't part of this reversal
>Clinton's fault? After all, Big Bill left this proposal to the end
>of his years, so that its actua
George Dubya, the titular head of the US state, recently got headlines by
okaying the veto by Congress of Clinton-era ergonomic rules in the
workplace. I wonder: isn't part of this reversal Clinton's fault? After
all, Big Bill left this proposal to the end of his years, so that its
actual ena
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