Re: Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

At 01:23 AM 10/24/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > DS> Nope, that's not a win, because it can't happen. There needs to be > DS> an intermediate representation that can be run through an > DS> optimizer. The output of the optimizer coul

Re: Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DS> Nope, that's not a win, because it can't happen. There needs to be DS> an intermediate representation that can be run through an DS> optimizer. The output of the optimizer could then be turned into DS> TIL code or run through an I

Re: Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

At 12:54 AM 10/24/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > DS> So unless we come up with something concrete, the goals are: > > DS> 1) A nebulous ~10% faster > DS> 2) Faster in the things that annoy Dan the most > DS> 3) Faster in the OO bit

Re: Perl6 the platform-dependent bits...

At 03:28 PM 10/23/00 -0500, Garrett Goebel wrote: >From: Dan Sugalski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > (Though if someone comes up with a way to make the > > platform-dependent bits really small and isolated I'm all for it) > >Hmm... I'm 99.9% ignorant on this subject, but

Re: Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

On Tue, Oct 24, 2000 at 12:54:51AM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > another TIL win is no compile phase and not even a bytecode intepreter > startup phase. TIL code is executed directly and the script is now a > true binary. reverse compilation is still easy due to the template > nature of the generate

Re: Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DS> So unless we come up with something concrete, the goals are: DS> 1) A nebulous ~10% faster DS> 2) Faster in the things that annoy Dan the most DS> 3) Faster in the OO bits the folks upstairs from me use 4. faster internal and la

Acceptable speeds (was Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?))

At 08:26 PM 10/23/00 -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: >Uri Guttman writes: > > overall i agree. but i use objects much more now and don't think about > > the runtime cost at all (estimated to be %30) > >I know a company that had to rewrite most of their OO code because it >was the bottleneck in the

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "NT" == Nathan Torkington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: NT> Uri Guttman writes: >> overall i agree. but i use objects much more now and don't think about >> the runtime cost at all (estimated to be %30) NT> All the world is not an Uri. and aren't we all glad about that! :) NT> I

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

Uri Guttman writes: > overall i agree. but i use objects much more now and don't think about > the runtime cost at all (estimated to be %30) All the world is not an Uri. I know a company that had to rewrite most of their OO code because it was the bottleneck in their application. The rewrite wa

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

Uri Guttman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > not a good sign but we may need to take the hit to support overloading > any function and supporting TIL and threads. i think a %20 hit to get > those working cleanly might be a decent tradeoff. I don't. I'd find it to be a really good reason to learn P

Re: My reading list

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Simon Cozens wrote: > On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:11:34PM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: > > I'd just like to stoke the latent paranoia. :-) For those who haven't read them the Steve Maguire books are really really good. Hallo, no matter what you think of the software they

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DS> We can't slow down, no matter what it might buy us. overall i agree. but i use objects much more now and don't think about the runtime cost at all (estimated to be %30). the OO design win for this project makes up for the speed loss.

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "AT" == Adam Turoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: AT> I'm with Dan. Make it an optional runtime for everyone who *chooses* AT> to live within the confines of threaded bytecode. It shouldn't be the AT> default runtime model because it is too broken. i never disagreed with not making T

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: SC> On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:33:23PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >> so the TIL generated code would still to parameter setup, then an >> indirect function call and then result handling. it should still be >> faster than an interpreter

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

At 01:38 AM 10/24/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:33:23PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > so the TIL generated code would still to parameter setup, then an > > indirect function call and then result handling. it should still be > > faster than an interpreter and simpler to

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

At 08:43 PM 10/23/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > DS> At 08:33 PM 10/23/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > >> as for ziggy's comments on the overload of builtins issue there could be > >> a simple dispatch table used instead of direct cal

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:33:23PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > as for ziggy's comments on the overload of builtins issue there could be > a simple dispatch table used instead of direct calls. I don't think you understand the issue. That's taking great pains to unthread threaded bytecode once yo

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DS> At 08:33 PM 10/23/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >> as for ziggy's comments on the overload of builtins issue there could be >> a simple dispatch table used instead of direct calls. it would be fast >> with just an indexed lookup ba

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 08:33:23PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > so the TIL generated code would still to parameter setup, then an > indirect function call and then result handling. it should still be > faster than an interpreter and simpler to generate than fully compiled > code. Is this actually,

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "DS" == Dan Sugalski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DS> At 12:48 AM 10/24/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:18:15PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >> > basically the emitted machine code for TIL is very simplified C >> > routine calls and their argument setup and r

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

At 08:33 PM 10/23/00 -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >as for ziggy's comments on the overload of builtins issue there could be >a simple dispatch table used instead of direct calls. it would be fast >with just an indexed lookup based on the op code id. FWIW, this isn't all that fast. I tried it with pe

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: SC> On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:18:15PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >> basically the emitted machine code for TIL is very simplified C >> routine calls and their argument setup and return. all the routine calls >> are to perl ops with ju

Re: My reading list

At 12:49 AM 10/24/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:11:34PM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: > >I'd just like to stoke the latent paranoia. Latent? What, there's some that *hasn't* come out yet? Damn, I bet it's too late to be afraid...

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 12:33 AM 10/24/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:40:26PM -0700, Peter Scott wrote: > > >Don't forget that those BEGIN blocks are *supposed* to be instructions > > >to the compiler. > > > > Er, but a lot of people seem to use them for other things :-) > >Then they're goin

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

At 12:48 AM 10/24/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:18:15PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > basically the emitted machine code for TIL is very simplified C > > routine calls and their argument setup and return. all the routine calls > > are to perl ops with just the minimal s

Re: My reading list

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:11:34PM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: I'd just like to stoke the latent paranoia. > Published by Microsoft Press > Published by Microsoft Press > Published by Microsoft Press > Published by Wiley > Published by Dorset House -- Putting heated bricks close to the new

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:18:15PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > basically the emitted machine code for TIL is very simplified C > routine calls and their argument setup and return. all the routine calls > are to perl ops with just the minimal stack glue code in between them. OK, you're re-inventin

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:40:26PM -0700, Peter Scott wrote: > >Don't forget that those BEGIN blocks are *supposed* to be instructions > >to the compiler. > > Er, but a lot of people seem to use them for other things :-) Then they're going to have a shock. This isn't Perl 5 any more, Toto. > Wh

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 09:54 PM 10/23/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:38:12PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > The one thing that just occurred to me is that we're going to need to > > support multiple interpreter targets simultaneously. Having the back-end > > emit C source isn't going to get

Re: TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 05:18:15PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > > "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > SC> I can't make this make any sense. Could you try again? > > well, you should have been on the lists when this was being hammered > around. OK. I don't remember this bein

My reading list

(my apologies for the delay in sending this) Software Project Survival Guide by Steve McConnell Published by Microsoft Press. Takes you step by step through the project, and each chapter ends with a checklist of things that should be happening and things that shouldn't. Quite detailed, an

TIL redux (was Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?)

> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: SC> On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:51:24PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: >> only perl op calls in machine code SC> I can't make this make any sense. Could you try again? well, you should have been on the lists when this was being hammered aro

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:51:24PM -0400, Uri Guttman wrote: > only perl op calls in machine code I can't make this make any sense. Could you try again? -- And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions.

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:38:12PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > The one thing that just occurred to me is that we're going to need to > support multiple interpreter targets simultaneously. Having the back-end > emit C source isn't going to get those BEGIN blocks very far. :( Don't forget that t

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

> "SC" == Simon Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: SC> Incidentally, and just to try and raise the tone a little, are we SC> planning on compiling Perl 6 programs to native binaries? that was the subject of threaded inline code (my def of TIL but some other acronyms fit that). a cpu/os s

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 09:01 PM 10/23/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:37:02PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > Oh, without a doubt. I'd actually like to get things building such that > the > > four main modules--parser, bytecode compiler, optimizer, and execution > > engine--are in separate s

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

Simon Cozens wrote: > > We believe that > the world-turning program was rewritten in Perl in 1997. We do? Huh. What else do we believe? -- John Porter

Perl6 the platform-dependent bits...

From: Dan Sugalski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > (Though if someone comes up with a way to make the > platform-dependent bits really small and isolated I'm all for it) Hmm... I'm 99.9% ignorant on this subject, but doesn't this relate back to past discussions of C--, the portable assembly language

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 04:03:12PM -0400, John Porter wrote: > But we'll probably *implement* perl in Ada, of course. Bzzt. Ada *used* to be the language that made the world turn. We believe that the world-turning program was rewritten in Perl in 1997. -- Thus spake the master programmer:

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

Dan Sugalski wrote: > > Well, maybe we can do it in befunge instead. No, you're getting confused. We'd like perl at the *user code level* to look like intercal and befunge. (Hmm... wonder what a "come from" operator in befunge would look like...) But we'll probably *implement* perl in Ada, of

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 03:37:02PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > Well, maybe we can do it in befunge instead. +!+!@@!!! > Oh, without a doubt. I'd actually like to get things building such that the > four main modules--parser, bytecode compiler, optimizer, and execution > engine--are in separat

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 08:18 PM 10/23/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:51:40PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > > PLEASE LET'S NOT GO THAT WAY > > A... you're no fun! :) > >I am, but nurse says I'm not allowed to write INTERCAL any more. Well, maybe we can do it in befunge instead. >

Re: compile-time taint checking and the halting problem

Larry Wall wrote: > > David L. Nicol writes: > : Steve Fink wrote (and I edited slightly): > : > : > I can't figure out why so many people misinterpret my RFC12 > : > as requiring a solution to the halting problem. > : > : a large class of incompletely expressed > : suggestions appear to get gr

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:51:40PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > PLEASE LET'S NOT GO THAT WAY > A... you're no fun! :) I am, but nurse says I'm not allowed to write INTERCAL any more. > That is one of the scenarios. There are some issues with it for a project > like this--spitting out

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 07:47 PM 10/23/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:39:14PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > > Got me. I'd planned on us writing perl 6 in INTERCAL. > > PLEASE LET'S NOT GO THAT WAY A... you're no fun! :) >Incidentally, and just to try and raise the tone a little, are

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

>> Perl, which allows object oriented syntax, written in C++ language, ^^ >Did I miss something, or did the world go *totally* gaga overnight? I think he's referring to Topaz. All together now: Topaz is dead, Topaz never was (public). --

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 02:39:14PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote: > Got me. I'd planned on us writing perl 6 in INTERCAL. PLEASE LET'S NOT GO THAT WAY Incidentally, and just to try and raise the tone a little, are we planning on compiling Perl 6 programs to native binaries? -- These days, if

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

At 07:37 PM 10/23/00 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote: >On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:44:15PM +0200, Gerrit Haase wrote: > > Perl, which allows object oriented syntax, written in C++ language, > ^^ >Did I miss something, or did the world go *totally*

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 07:44:15PM +0200, Gerrit Haase wrote: > Perl, which allows object oriented syntax, written in C++ language, ^^ Did I miss something, or did the world go *totally* gaga overnight? -- It's all fun and games until som

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

Hi Jerrad, > >> > What about Hexane? Arthropod (or some insect)? > These do habve meaning, Hexane is a six carbon hydocarbon. > Anthropods(esp. insects) have six legs... > > >perl object-oriented language > horrible! > > a) you're using an acronym within an acronym: > Practical Extraction and

Re: Threaded Perl bytecode (was: Re: stackless python)

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 11:03:12AM -0400, Chaim Frenkel wrote: > > "AT" == Adam Turoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > AT> It would also mean that if anything was overriden anywhere, no > AT> module code could be read in as bytecode, since it may need to be > AT> rethreaded to incorporate overr

Re: compile-time taint checking and the halting problem

At 09:44 AM 10/23/00 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: >David L. Nicol writes: >: Steve Fink wrote (and I edited slightly): >: >: > I can't figure out why so many people misinterpret my RFC12 >: > as requiring a solution to the halting problem. >: >: a large class of incompletely expressed >: suggestions

Re: Threaded Perl bytecode (was: Re: stackless python)

At 08:45 AM 10/23/00 -0700, Larry Wall wrote: >Adam Turoff writes: >: If Perl bytecode were to become threaded, it would be rather troublesome. > >Wasn't actually suggesting it, though similar issues also arise for >compiling down to efficient C, JVM, or C# IL. Optimizing for Least >Surprise mean

Re: compile-time taint checking and the halting problem

David L. Nicol writes: : Steve Fink wrote (and I edited slightly): : : > I can't figure out why so many people misinterpret my RFC12 : > as requiring a solution to the halting problem. : : a large class of incompletely expressed : suggestions appear to get grouped into : : "This requires solv

Re: Threaded Perl bytecode (was: Re: stackless python)

Adam Turoff writes: : If Perl bytecode were to become threaded, it would be rather troublesome. Wasn't actually suggesting it, though similar issues also arise for compiling down to efficient C, JVM, or C# IL. Optimizing for Least Surprise means different things in different contexts, but I'd ha

RE: renaming local to "hold"

How about: scratch #doesn't really imply what it's doing overload#accurate, kinda long though some might say this is good dup/duplicate #nasty for the compiler, and perhaps for the newbies, #but dup'ing var's makes sense, esp. from the C stance clone/mycopy

RE: renaming local to "hold"

From: David L. Nicol [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > I think pitching renames for "local" is at least as worthwhile > as pitching code names. How about "Hold?" It isn't listed in > Blackstone's RFC 19, and it focuses on the restore-later > aspects -- put that variable on hold, like it is a phon

Re: Threaded Perl bytecode (was: Re: stackless python)

> "AT" == Adam Turoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: AT> If Perl bytecode were to become threaded, it would be rather troublesome. AT> It would probably require some attribute or early compile time AT> declaration (in main::BEGIN) to tag specific subs/builtins to be AT> overridden at runtime.

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

>> > What about Hexane? Arthropod (or some insect)? These do habve meaning, Hexane is a six carbon hydocarbon. Anthropods(esp. insects) have six legs... >perl object-oriented language horrible! a) you're using an acronym within an acronym: Practical Extraction and Report Language Object-

Re: What will the Perl6 code name be?

> Jerrad Pierce wrote: > > > > What about Hexane? Arthropod (or some insect)? > > Hmmm "anthracite" ? Hi there, i think it should have a meaning, s.th. like pool would be nice with the meaning: perl object-oriented language ;-) - gph - -- Gerrit Peter Haase