----
From: Jon Weisberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: passenger side <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: Clip: The state of country radio
>> > Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the
way
>> > that it work
Junior wrote:
>This thread is nuts .
>
>Heh Geir, I was mostly joking. Carl, I'm way back off that yellow
>line!!
>
>And Geir: while Wagner isn't my own cup of tea, more power to ya. As Jon
>Weisberger was just saying in another context of this same thread (!?),
>these taste matters are n
> But isn't the history of country music more or less the history of its
> influences? And that being the case, doesn't that make the influences,
> and genres within the influences, very valid -- even crucial -- factors in
> assessing the music? It seems as if you're throwing all rock music into
This thread is nuts .
Heh Geir, I was mostly joking. Carl, I'm way back off that yellow
line!!
And Geir: while Wagner isn't my own cup of tea, more power to ya. As Jon
Weisberger was just saying in another context of this same thread (!?),
these taste matters are not really the basic poin
Jon quotes me here (and is kind of enough not to point out that I tangled
up that last sentence and said the opposite of what I meant):
> > > I think your comparative points are
> > instructive, but of limited utility, when we're trying to gauge to what
> > extent rock influences have eroded or
Terry says:
> What I'm trying to say -- the relative merit
> of the music (which is all a matter of taste) isn't addressed on any
> levels in your comparisons about how each of these artists, or group of
> artists, dealt with the "industry." If Shania was a duck quacking, and
> she'd gone through
No, no, I know that, Mr.Junior. (I mean, really, with a name like
"Junior", you'd have been drummed out of the Teddy-and-Walt Noble
Frankfurters Clubhouse at the first meeting...) But I was somewhat,
somehow serious that the management-and-creation-of-taste line, while
Junior wrote:
People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are
NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't
mix great composers like Mozart and Cimarosa in with trash like
Wagner, sheesh What would you think if somebody
characterized Buck as Blue
Like, dude , I would never look at pop culture from Adorno's
perspective, so I take this as facetiousness Maybe Debord, but
not Adorno!! As I understood Todd, he was just referring to my
remarks about the way the music industry manages and creates a taste
for its own products.
Outta h
Jr. goes:
>Popular taste is not formed before industry dreck gets heard, >>it's
formed *in and by* industry dreck.
>>
And then Todd goes:
>When did T.W. Adorno sneak on to the list?
And so I goes:
Like, too long ago? Jr. is using a real overpure Frankfurt-school reading
of popu
Jon persists in comparing Shania Twain (who does have a brother named
Mark, by the way) with the 70s Outlaws:
> > Let's see. Artist A has essentially mediocre success using
> producer-determined/arranged material, fights with his label in order to
> record the stuff that *he* wants to, rather t
I love this. Only on P2 does a discussion of the state of country
radio devolve into questions about the differential effects of
radically diverse sax players like Brubeck, Kenny G, Sun Ra, or
Coltrane on a non-informed rock audience. Not to mention this
business about Wagner
--junior
> > People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are
> > NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't
> > mix great composers like Mozart and Cimarosa in with trash like
> > Wagner, sheesh What would you think if somebody
> > characterized Buck as Blu
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state
of coun.. by "Ph. Barnard"@eagle.cc.u
> People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are
> NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't
> mix great composers like Mozart and Cimaros
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state
of coun.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne
> But consider that, as best I can tell, anyhow, one
> of the raps on Kenny G is that his work is influenced by the wrong kinds of
> rock and pop, so a certain degree of circularity star
So:
> > Perhaps. I'd rather hear Debussy than Wagner in my rock. The latter
> > leads to things like Meat Loaf.
>
> Hmm, Carl, does this mean you're not interested in classical music?
> Besides, the former leads to things like BS&T.
People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. Th
Carl says:
> Would a discussion of the merits of Kenny G's and Sonny Rollins's
> influence on rock by non-jazz fans be fair? I'll bet there's a lurker
> or two who's not big on jazz but digs the Stones' "Waiting For a Friend"
> & runs screaming from Michael Bolton's work
Fair, sure, why not
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state
of coun.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne
> Hmm, Carl, does this mean you're not interested in classical music?
Relative to several other types of music, that would be a fair
statement. I'm a casual listener at best.
Excerpts
>>
>>Often in these P2 discussions of radio, I'm surprised at the notion
>>that people could actually make a change in it. I'm much more of the
>>opinion that the music industry *manufactures* mass taste and the
>>need for its products. Very pessimistic on that point. I know it's
>>not a simple
> > So you say, but I think it depends a lot on your degree of
> interest in rock.
> > If you're not interested in classical music, and you think that
> > incorporating classical music influences into rock makes the result less
> > enjoyable, are you really going to care whether it's
> Beethoven's
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The
state of cou.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne
> So you say, but I think it depends a lot on your degree of interest in rock.
> If you're not interested in classical music, and you think that
> incorporating classical music influence
> > Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way
> > that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a
> > considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to
> > say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs o
>
> Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way
> that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a
> considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to
> say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs over h
Carl sez:
> (thanks greatly to my stay in the P2 reeducation
> camps)
Heh, you know Carl, here in Kansas we have big old mothballed govt
installations that were used as POW camps for German prisoners during
WWII. Maybe they could be put to some real twang-Maoist use in
reeducating
Amy H:
>the balance seems to be shifting, on country > radio and on CMT, back toward
a preponderance of music that we may or may
> not like, but that we can all agree, I think, is indisputably what we think
> of as country music, unlike some of the more pop-oriented HNC stuff. That's
> why Juni
I'll use up my me-too of the week on Terry's bit about rock influences
on country. I spoke to this after seeing the Old 97s last month,
concluding that the way out of the double-bind that has oft consumed
P2 discussion on "real country music" is to realize that except for
tched the Grand Funk one. So yeh, I'm shameless.
M
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Weisberger [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 10:26 AM
> To: passenger side
> Subject: RE: Clip: The state of country radio
>
> > [Matt Benz]
> [Matt Benz] Shania sez in the VH1 special...
Hmm, first Derek, now Matt confesses to having tuned in. I think it's
pretty clear just who the real Shania fans are here.
Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
[Matt Benz] Shania sez in the VH1 special that she sang whatever was in
demand: she sang in rock bands, top 40 cover bands, country bands. She
was a typical lounge-type performer: simply doing whatever styles were
wanted at the time. As far as I can tell, she was not pre-disposed to
country mus
From: Jon Weisberger
>More to the point, though, the CMF's new Encyclopedia of Country
>Music says that 1) she came to Nashville with a tape and hooked up with
>Shedd there,
Well shame on me then for watching and believing what I see on VH1, but
according to their report, she was singing away do
Terry says:
> As for rock influences on country, Jon's made this point before, and it's
> well documented, but I'd argue that there's rock influences and then
> there's rock influences. The sort of rock influences that's "corrupting"
> commercial country music these days is, for the most part, ba
From: Mike Hays
>Not aware of what her lounge singing consisted of in Canada, but before she
>met Mutt she did a pretty decent straight ahead country CD which if I
>remember correctly, received critical acclaim but little commercial
>acceptance as it came out just as the POP boom in country was ex
> Correct me if I'm wrong here (and I've been meaning to bring this up about
> Shania), but since when was Shania ever really "Country." From what I've
> read about her, she was singing pop songs in a Vegas format in
> some vacation lodges in Canada. It just so happens that the one person
> that
>This is pretty evident by the fact that instead of folding to the whims of
>Nashville and becoming another music publisher's puppet, she fond Mutt
Lange
>(or should I say he found her), who in return allowed her to do things her
>own way.
Not aware of what her lounge singing consisted of in Cana
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: passenger side <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: Clip: The state of country radio
>In a message dated 3/15/99 9:40:41 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >
> Using up my "me too" quotient for the month, I'll say that I think Jon has
> this exactly right. The line- dancing-for-yuppies era is pretty well dead
> and buried, the suburbanites who embraced HNC in the late 1980s and early
> 1990s have moved on, as Jon notes, to whatever--Hootie or Lilit
In a message dated 3/15/99 9:40:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< Just happened to be station-surfing Sunday morning on the way back from the
gig in Knoxville and came across Elton John's "Hold Me Closer, Tiny Dancer"
rock/pop operretta -- it features, in addition to ove
>
>I frankly think that what's happening is that the novelty factor is wearing
>off for a lot of the newer country listeners, and they're off to look for
>the Next Big Thing without much concern for whether it's labeled rock or pop
>or something else again. I haven't seen even a whisper of a desi
Just as most of the things I "contribute," this digressions is merely
tangentially related to the subject listed above.
Just happened to be station-surfing Sunday morning on the way back from the
gig in Knoxville and came across Elton John's "Hold Me Closer, Tiny Dancer"
rock/pop operretta -- it
From: Terry A. Smith
>Coming from the country side,
>the main reason to have a problem with Shania (and her increasing progeny)
>is her desertion of "real country," and as Jon and others have so well
>argued, the notion of pure or real country music isn't unlike a
>toddler's idea of Camelot.
Co
> or something else again. I haven't seen even a whisper of a desire for
> twangier, more hardcore country stuff in the coverage of the CRS that's been
> posted here - and in fact, the positive references to "outlaws" merely
> underlines the point, as the musical content of The Outlaws boom of th
> Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale Watson,
The
> Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly
> Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale,
Cisco,
> The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get tho
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale
> > Watson, The
> > Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores,
Kelly
> > Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda,
> > Lauderdale, Cisco,
> > The Hollist
> Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale
> Watson, The
> Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly
> Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda,
> Lauderdale, Cisco,
> The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get
Is there another genre of music that has so thoroughly turned its back on such a large
segment of its roots?
Rock and roll comes to mind.
Kate writes:
>Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale
>Watson, The Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale
>Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly Willis, Jann Browne, Heather
>Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale, Cisco, The Hollisters,
>Buddy Miller and Steve Earle
Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale Watson, The
Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly
Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale, Cisco,
The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those liste
Country radio programmers hear criticism at seminar
March 15, 1999
By The Associated Press
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Listeners are deserting country music radio
stations because they're bored with the music being played, according to
two teams of researchers who spoke at a convention of radi
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