Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Florent Hivert
Hi William, > > In the operation, several friend there lost their job (actually this in not > > Mathworks fault and probably the result of Sciface being bought by > > Mathworks is > > that some of them keep their job)... > > > > I'm not sure anyone in this sharks market will care a cent abo

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread rjf
I do not have any special knowledge about why sage math leads to a wolfram ad, but perhaps Google has noticed that the pages that are about sage often mention Mathematica. Rather prominently, too. The pages about foo don't mention Mathematica much. Therefore sage math is in closer proximity to

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread William Stein
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > Harald Schilly wrote: >> On Nov 24, 6:05 pm, "Dr. David Kirkby" >> wrote: >>> That's why searches on 'sage math' in Google bring up sponsored >>> advertisements >>> paid for by  Wolfram Research. Perhaps I am thick, but that suggests to

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby
Harald Schilly wrote: > On Nov 24, 6:05 pm, "Dr. David Kirkby" > wrote: >> That's why searches on 'sage math' in Google bring up sponsored >> advertisements >> paid for by Wolfram Research. Perhaps I am thick, but that suggests to me >> Wolfram Research are not ignoring Sage. > > I don't know h

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Harald Schilly
On Nov 24, 6:05 pm, "Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: > That's why searches on 'sage math' in Google bring up sponsored advertisements > paid for by  Wolfram Research. Perhaps I am thick, but that suggests to me > Wolfram Research are not ignoring Sage. I don't know how they have tuned their campaign, bu

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread William Stein
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:49 AM, rjf wrote: [...] Many thanks for your comments.However, I'm concerned that your level of rudeness is not appropriate for this list. -- William -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an em

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby
rjf wrote: > > On Nov 24, 6:54 am, William Stein wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Florent Hivert >> >> >> >> >> How do you imagine that one of those sharks could "put Sage down"? > > they don't have to. they just ignore it. That's why searches on 'sage math' in Google bring up sponso

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread rjf
Oh great, another prime counting function, and you think that WRI will be compelled to respond because Sage has some undergraduate project on the topic. Sure. -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel-unsubs

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread rjf
On Nov 24, 6:55 am, "Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: . > > What is so wrong about competition? In the UK, we have a 'competition > commission' > > http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/ Since Sage is given away, Sage makes no money when more people use it. I think the analogy with Boeing and

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread rjf
On Nov 24, 6:54 am, William Stein wrote: > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Florent Hivert > > > > > How do you imagine that one of those sharks could "put Sage down"? they don't have to. they just ignore it. > I'm genuinely curious, because I don't see how *they* can.  The > obvious attacks

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread William Stein
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > Florent Hivert wrote: > >> I'm not sure anyone in this sharks market will care a cent about putting sage >> down... > > I suspect some of the employees at Mathworks probably welcome Sage, though > they > would not say so officially. > >>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby
William Stein wrote: > It's an honest "attack", and that's exactly what I would expect from > the people working at the Ma's. Perhaps, I'm young and naive, but I > think they are by and large good and honest people. I think this > sort of competition is an overall plus for end users, in the l

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Dr. David Kirkby
Florent Hivert wrote: > I'm not sure anyone in this sharks market will care a cent about putting sage > down... I suspect some of the employees at Mathworks probably welcome Sage, though they would not say so officially. > Now, though I completely agree with sage goal, I don't feel very > comfo

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread William Stein
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:15 AM, Florent Hivert wrote: >      Hi There, > > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 03:41:46PM -0600, Jason Grout wrote: >> mark mcclure wrote: >> > On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: >> >> That is true.  In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub >> >> non-free c

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Harald Schilly
On Nov 24, 7:20 am, William Stein wrote: > It's shared between many countries, > including France, Germany, Austria, India, Canada, etc., Since I do statistics, I want to add that since this fall Sage is by far no longer an us-only project. There is more activity from europe than from north ameri

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-24 Thread Florent Hivert
Hi There, On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 03:41:46PM -0600, Jason Grout wrote: > mark mcclure wrote: > > On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: > >> That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub > >> non-free commercial software either. > > > > But William, just two days a

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Robert Bradshaw
On Nov 23, 2009, at 8:12 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > Is there a plan for what happens if funding is not approved? > Do the servers continue? Yes. > Are the students reassigned? There aren't any students being funded by unconfirmed funding, and the grant isn't about funding students either. > Do th

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
Hi Tim, Thanks for airing your concerns and worries. On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Tim Daly wrote: > Is there a plan for what happens if funding is not approved? Yes. > Do the servers continue? I'm not asking for funding for servers.The actual hardware is owned by UW (but paid for by t

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Tim Daly
Is there a plan for what happens if funding is not approved? Do the servers continue? Are the students reassigned? Do the Sage days continue? Does the code move to sourceforge or github? Does this become a free-time only, non-academic activity? Once Sage becomes a non-academic "free and open sourc

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:15 PM, rjf wrote: > > > On Nov 23, 3:49 pm, William Stein wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM,rjf wrote: >> >> > "venerable" Maxima is mentioned once, suggesting that the only thing >> >> > it can do is symbolic integration and numeric integration. >> >> > Actually

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Tim Daly
Simon King wrote: > Hi All! > > On 24 Nov., 01:15, rjf wrote: > [...] > >> It may be worthwhile pondering Tim's comment... >> >> "NSF will not fund software development that competes with >>existing commercial software." >> > > Indeed, that's irritating. What exactly does NSF mean? >

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread kcrisman
> > > It may be worthwhile pondering Tim's comment... > > >   "NSF will not fund software development that competes with > >    existing commercial software." > > Indeed, that's irritating. What exactly does NSF mean? > > Do they mean (1) "no fund for software that competes economically with > exis

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Simon King
Hi All! On 24 Nov., 01:15, rjf wrote: [...] > It may be worthwhile pondering Tim's comment... > >   "NSF will not fund software development that competes with >    existing commercial software." Indeed, that's irritating. What exactly does NSF mean? Do they mean (1) "no fund for software that c

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
On Nov 23, 3:49 pm, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM,rjf wrote: > >> > "venerable" Maxima is mentioned once, suggesting that the only thing > >> > it can do is symbolic integration and numeric integration. > >> > Actually, while Maxima includes library access to Fortran met

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 1:04 PM, rjf wrote: >> > "venerable" Maxima is mentioned once, suggesting that the only thing >> > it can do is symbolic integration and numeric integration. >> > Actually, while Maxima includes library access to Fortran methods, it >> > is far inferior to what could be don

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:22 PM, rjf wrote: > Is the topic of "how should a Sage proposal be written so that it is > funded by NSF" really something to be relegated to sage-flame? > I don't know how many other readers here  have (repeatedly) served as > NSF reviewers or panelists evaluating propos

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
Is the topic of "how should a Sage proposal be written so that it is funded by NSF" really something to be relegated to sage-flame? I don't know how many other readers here have (repeatedly) served as NSF reviewers or panelists evaluating proposals. Based on my contributions to the writing of thi

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
On Nov 23, 1:33 pm, Alex Ghitza wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:04:25PM -0800, rjf wrote: > > > > Actually, while Maxima includes library access to Fortran methods, it > > > > is far inferior to what could be done in numeric integration, > > > > as demonstrated by recent Mathematica versions

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread mark mcclure
On Nov 23, 4:56 pm, Martin Rubey wrote: > Jaap Spies writes: > > Ever heard of the word humor? Even without a smiley this is possible in > > a message. > > I, as a german speaking, can see no humor in that post you link to.   I guess I didn't either. In the overall context of the post, the stat

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Jaap Spies
Martin Rubey wrote: > Jaap Spies writes: > >> mark mcclure wrote: >>> On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub non-free commercial software either. >>> But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: >>> "Le

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Nick Alexander
It's time for this thread to move to sage-flame. Please no more messages on sage-devel. Nick -- To post to this group, send an email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at h

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Gonzalo Tornaria
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:04 PM, rjf wrote: > That's helpful.  Forgive me for asking for information.  I see, > somewhat later, that this has to do with adding type declarations. > Just the ticket.  To me is suggests that Python is inappropriate for > numerical work -- for which C is more appropri

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Martin Rubey
Jaap Spies writes: > mark mcclure wrote: >> On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: >>> That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub >>> non-free commercial software either. >> >> But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: >> "Let's put Mathworks out of b

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Tim Daly
Jaap Spies wrote: > mark mcclure wrote: > >> On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: >> >>> That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub >>> non-free commercial software either. >>> >> But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: >> "Let's put M

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Jason Grout
mark mcclure wrote: > On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: >> That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub >> non-free commercial software either. > > But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: > "Let's put Mathworks out of business." > http://groups.goo

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Alex Ghitza
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 01:04:25PM -0800, rjf wrote: > > > Actually, while Maxima includes library access to Fortran methods, it > > > is far inferior to what could be done in numeric integration, > > > as demonstrated by recent Mathematica versions. You would hardly get a > > > hint that 75% of t

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Jaap Spies
mark mcclure wrote: > On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: >> That is true. In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub >> non-free commercial software either. > > But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: > "Let's put Mathworks out of business." > http://groups.goo

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread mark mcclure
On Nov 23, 3:30 pm, William Stein wrote: > That is true.  In fact, I hope in the proposal to not insult or snub > non-free commercial software either. But William, just two days ago on sage-support you wrote: "Let's put Mathworks out of business." http://groups.google.com/group/sage-support/brows

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
Definition of venerable: 1. Commanding respect by virtue of age, dignity, character, or position. 2. Worthy of reverence, especially by religious or historical association. For the non-native English speakers (and maybe others) in the group, it may be useful to point out that labeling somethin

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
On Nov 23, 8:38 am, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:28 AM, rjf wrote: > > From the proposal > > > ... and which has sophisti- > > cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including > > Mathematica, Maple, > > MATLAB and Magma. ... > > > Maxima just gets no res

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 12:27 PM, John H Palmieri wrote: > On Nov 23, 11:18 am, Simon King wrote: >> Hi William! >> >> On 23 Nov., 18:55, William Stein wrote: >> [...] >> >> > Maxima started in the 1960s, whereas Singular, Pari, GAP are from the >> > 1990s, right?   Venerable = "accorded a great

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread John H Palmieri
On Nov 23, 11:18 am, Simon King wrote: > Hi William! > > On 23 Nov., 18:55, William Stein wrote: > [...] > > > Maxima started in the 1960s, whereas Singular, Pari, GAP are from the > > 1990s, right?   Venerable = "accorded a great deal of respect, esp. > > because of age" > > My impression was th

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Simon King
Hi William! On 23 Nov., 18:55, William Stein wrote: [...] > Maxima started in the 1960s, whereas Singular, Pari, GAP are from the > 1990s, right?   Venerable = "accorded a great deal of respect, esp. > because of age" My impression was that the word "venerable" (used *twice* in the proposal) by

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread kcrisman
> > You are so funny. You remind me of the sour old men in the public of > the Muppet show. Complaining all the time, but not looking what's > really happening. Statler and Waldorf. Also, unless we predict the immediate demise of Sage's integration, (hopefully soon) summation (review this please

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Jaap Spies
rjf wrote: > From the proposal > > > and which has sophisti- > cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including > Mathematica, Maple, > MATLAB and Magma. ... > > > Maxima just gets no respect. :) > > > Most of the facilities mentioned are already in Maxima. > [...]

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread John H Palmieri
On Nov 23, 9:55 am, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Simon King wrote: > >  "Sage provides the capabilities of a wide range of open source > > mathematical and non-mathematical software, such as GAP, JMol, Maxima, > > Numpy, Pari/GP, R, Scipy, Singular, Tachyon and Twiste

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread John H Palmieri
On Nov 23, 8:28 am, rjf wrote: > From the proposal [snip] > And why is Cython much more than a Python to C translator?  (This is > not sarcasm. I honestly have no idea that it was more. > I thought it was, if anything, less.) Look at the section on "Cython and Numerical Computation" for some wa

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Simon King wrote: > On Nov 23, 4:38 pm, William Stein wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:28 AM, rjf wrote: >> > From the proposal >> >> > ... and which has sophisti- >> > cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including >> > Mathematica, Mapl

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread Simon King
On Nov 23, 4:38 pm, William Stein wrote: > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:28 AM, rjf wrote: > > From the proposal > > > ... and which has sophisti- > > cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including > > Mathematica, Maple, > > MATLAB and Magma. ... > > > Maxima just gets no respe

Re: [sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread William Stein
On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:28 AM, rjf wrote: > From the proposal > > > ... and which has sophisti- > cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including > Mathematica, Maple, > MATLAB and Magma. ... > > > Maxima just gets no respect. :) > Most of the facilities mentioned are alread

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-23 Thread rjf
>From the proposal ... and which has sophisti- cated interfaces to nearly all other mathematics software, including Mathematica, Maple, MATLAB and Magma. ... Maxima just gets no respect. :) Most of the facilities mentioned are already in Maxima. And why is Cython much more than a Python to C

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-22 Thread David Ketcheson
I'm excited to see a major focus on numerics and PDEs in Sage. I'm thinking of using Sage to teach numerical methods for PDEs here at KAUST next semester. -David On Nov 20, 3:24 pm, William Stein wrote: > Hi, > > Me and several people have been putting together a proposal to this NSF > progra

[sage-devel] Re: A Sage NSF proposal to the Computational Mathematics Program

2009-11-20 Thread ulfarsson
Hi. I read through and made some comments into the PDF with Skim on Mac OS X. I'll send it to you via email. Henning On Nov 20, 12:24 pm, William Stein wrote: > Hi, > > Me and several people have been putting together a proposal to this NSF > program: > >      http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_sum