Bernie- I'm in the opposite boat. As the only PCS "A" clubmaker in the retirement area I live in (and the surrounding area), I am having a tough time competing against the "non-profit" clubmakers in the area. I won't imply that they are "cut & gluers", but they do not take the time and effort that I do to custom fit a person with the right head and shaft, let alone frequency match,spine align, loft & lie, etc. I feel that if clubmakers charged the extra $$ that they are worth, we would have a much better reputation vs the OEMs that have all the advertising dollars. I feel that part of our lack of accreditation (?) vs the OEMs is that people feel they can get a club for the catalog cost of components without considering our costs in skills and time.
Just my $.02 worth after a very frusting day on the course!!! Jack Jack's Custom Golf -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bernie Baymiller Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ShopTalk: What is it worth? Sean, First, you're forgetting that I don't go actively searching for business. Thus, I don't have enough volume to cut into anybody's act, particularly that of a good clubmaker. (Incidentally, I'm one of three hobbyist clubmakers who are pretty good in our golfing community...and heaven knows how many C&G guys.) A good cluffitter generally has better equipment to fit than I do, including computer analysis systems, etc. I have to do my "fitting" by knowing my customer's game and swing faults, how far they will go to overcome them, what works for them and what doesn't, as well as observing what they do with demos. I wouldn't call that a professional fitting by today's standards, but if I'm consciencious about it, the results are pretty good. Another question: What is a legit market? I'm legit. I offer someone a choice...they can either go to a top notch fitter (not any around our area that I'd go to) and pay for a really thorough job of fitting...or come to me for less money if they are satisfied with the more limited job I will do. Sometimes, near enough is good enough. As I said before, I don't want anything to do with OEM clubs...don't ever sell any, almost never repair any (well, do regrips and stuff like that), so I don't cut into the pro's business much at all. Maybe I take a few driver sales away from him, but chances are, if these customers came to me, they wouldn't have been satisfied with the pro's offerings, anyway. He doesn't sell any long drivers, or ultra light ones specially made for an 80 year-old or a slow-swinging lady. Finally, I don't put a low value on my services, nor do I think my customers do. I put a low price on my services... because I don't want to make a profit and deal with the day-in, day-out hassle of running a business. Anything unconstitutional about that? So, my answer to your last question is, no. If someone is satisfied with a hobbyist's work, why should they pay pro prices? I build clubs for my friends, generally not for anyone who walks in off the street. And, I only have a responsibility to my customer, certainly not to any any other "competitor." As far as I know, this is still America, where competition, in or out of the country, sets the pricing. The golf component business and textile business are pretty good examples of that. Speaking of competition: I watch the activity on several golf forums and see golfers have a really fast growing interest in building their own clubs. GS is probably right to emphasize this market above other markets. It could be huge in a few years...much larger than the OEM market in a decade or two...if the OEMs don't get their act together. Sooner or later, the hype, high cost and failure to deliver promised performance, will come back to haunt the OEMs. I've seen it happen too many businesses, and even industries, in my career. However, there will always be a majority of golfers who don't want to bother with building their own clubs...as the baby boomer, status conscious generation fades away, and as Tom Wishon has suggested, there should be a huge opportunity for the professional clubmaker. IMO. Wish I was younger again. Bernie Writeto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "sean weijand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Shop-Talk Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:42 AM Subject: ShopTalk: What is it worth? > Unfortunately I'm not in the club making business but i do have an > intense interest in golf and golf clubs. I have noticed the last few > threads reading the statement that "I only charge $5.00-$10.00-.$15.00 > per club. > > I paid (for my wife 11 'cap) well over that for her clubs (John > Letters on SK fiber shafts). This was a PCS "A" Fitter (Bruce Chambers > Vancouver B.C. Canada). We were looking for the best possible fit for > her game. We could have gone OEM but there wouldn't have been a price > advantage. Nor would their have been a quality / professional advantage. > > It strikes me that we must be the exception as standard customers from > the responses i've read. Does leaving so much "on the table" make any > sense? > > Despite enjoying Bernie's input and his obvious vast knowledge on > clubmaking (I would gladly pay your green fee Bernie if you ever come > to vancouver just to pick your brain for four hours) i question the low > value he places on his services. > > If a hobbyist such as Bernie, who is an extremely well informed > hobbyist, price themselves so far below the market because they are > making "friends" or "just helping out the guys at the club" is biting > into the "legit" market and forcing guys such as Dr Voo into selling > bogus knockoffs to stay in business because the customers who are > interested in a quality fitting / relationship with a club-maker are > getting it from cheap knowledgeable "hobbyists" should they not > re-visit their pricing structure. (boy that was one long sentence). > > If the OEM's have demonstrated there is a price point for some > perceived performance I wonder why a professional clubmaker who is > selling performance would create a situation where the pricing levels > are expected to be considerably below the going rate. > > Being a contractor in the refrigeration business i guess i am used to > always making an effort to drive the street level pricing higher. The > only way we are able to do that is to offer more that the guy in a > truck. To me that is what a clubmaker offers me. i can get the "guy in > a truck" in a set of off the rack taylor made's. > > so after all this rambling the question I am looking for an answer to > (in this slow golf season of winter) is do hobbyists have a > responsibility to price their product to a level at least approaching > that of a full-time clubmaker? > > > I don't mean to make disparaging remarks about Mr Baymiller or Mr > Voorhies I just use them as examples. (perhaps the cost of posting, (we > get know who you are)). > > > tks sean > > >
