[TruthTalk] God Hates

[Judy Taylor]

From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy wrote: This concept is all through the Bible Bill, from Genesis on.  A&E died the day they ate from the forbidden tree but they did not die physically that day they died spiritually (Genesis 2:17) - (the serpent deceived Eve with an exact contradiction of the Word of God Genesis 3:4). There are two kinds of wisdom. The wisdom or Word of God brings life; the lie or wisdom from the father of lies produces spiritual death in a person's life.  Life and death are spiritual conditions that lead to eternal life or eternal death.  The mouth speaks from the abundance that fills the heart so both are evident by the power of the tongue (Proverbs 18:21) and we are speaking one or the other continually ie: 'A man shall be satisfied with good by the fruit of his mouth (Proverbs 12:14).  By your words you are either justified or condemned (Matthew 12:37). An evil man is snared by the transgression of his lips (Proverbs 12:13). The one holding the power of death is the devil (Hebrews 2:14) and Jesus told the apostle Paul he was "sending him to the Gentiles (us) to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in Me"   BT: Perhaps you misunderstood my request, Judy.  The challenge to you was to provide for me explicit language; that is, show me in Scripture where the text uses the language of "spiritual death" or "spiritually dead" or "died spiritually," something like that, that could substantiate your claim. I am familiar with the Text. I don't think it's there.   jt: It's there Bill - 1 Tim 5:6 teaches that "she who lives in pleasure and self gratification - giving herself up to luxury and self indulgence - is dead even while she still lives" In Luke 15:24 the father says of his prodigal son "this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found!"  We know the son did not die physically but he was living in sin out in the pigpen with the pigs.  Are these examples explicit enough?  Then there is the Church at Sardis in Rev 3:1 to whom Jesus says "I know your record and what you are doing; you are supposed to be alive but (in reality) you are dead" (AMP)   BT: Here's what I think about Genesis and the promise that on the day they eat of it they shall surely die. There was death that day. There was also the introduction of the Gospel. Instead of pulling his life-support from Adam and Woman God sacrificed a substitute. He covered them in the fatty portions of a lamb, the Lamb slain from the beginning. In doing this, he sealed on that day the vicarious death of his Son, in their place and on their behalf.  And so, as you see, one does not need to interpose a foreign concept into the text to make it make sense.   jt: Yes Bill there was a sacrifice. God killed an animal in Genesis 3:21 so that A&E could cover their nakedness but it was not the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  Not yet.   Yours is an a priori, Judy. You have heard this language so many times, for so long, that it is now a given in your reading of Scripture. You supply it, in other words, but the words themselves are not their. It is something you bring with you to your reading of the text, just as you did when you wrote "let the (spiritually) dead bury their own dead."   jt: If, as you claim Bill, my understanding is wrong and these words are not there -  then what is your explanation for this verse. Do you actually believe that physically dead people can bury other physically dead people?  If so how?   The challenge is still open. . .   jt: I've met the challenge more than once Bill but I don't expect you to accept my explanation because your all encompassing incarnational doctrine hath blinded your eyes.   Judy wrote: I've never ever read Augustine, Greek or any other philosophy, or religious Manichaeism Bill, neither do I approve of any type of Calvinism.   Neither did you need to to have your thinking influenced by these guys. All you needed to do was breath. The rest is supplied by people around you, when you go to church, for example, or when you went to school, or when you turn on your radio or television, or fire up your computer. Lance shared a really neat quote about how the philosophies of the mountain top flow down the streams to water the plants in the valley. We get theology and philosophy whether we seek it out or not. In many ways people are more susceptible and vulnerable to bad thinking when they eschew these things than they would be if they were to educate themselves to their subtleties. Maybe Lance could post this parable again to refresh your memory.   jt: If what you claim above is so Bill/Lance - then the devil is much more powerful than the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead us into all Truth and the spirit of error or lawlessness is greater than God and his righteousness.   jt: I see the juxtaposition between darkness and light, life and death, good and evil all through scripture   Ah yes, and so do I.   jt: and I have no idea what you are speaking of when you refer to "holistic personhood" - could you explain further please?   I am talking about the thought that a person could be physically alive but spiritually dead. The Hebrew mind did not have the Greek idea that body and soul or spirit could be separated, parts being alive while others are dead. The Hebrew view of personhood is that humans are non-reducible wholes. There is no dualism there.   jt: I don't know about Hebrew minds or Greek minds Bill but I do know that the mind of Christ sees man as a triune being made up of spirit, soul, and body.   Judy wrote: How do you read Matt 8:21 and Luke 9:59,60?   I thought I had already answered that. This is a metaphor: "Let the dead bury their own dead," but you "follow me." Everything that people do that is given priority over following Jesus is as it were dead works.   jt: But Jesus refers to the person as dead, not his works. In Luke 9:60 AMP it reads "Allow the dead to bury their own dead" and Matt 8:22 says "Follow Me, and leave the dead (in sin) to bury their own dead. And after He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. This does not appear to refer to dead works nor does it appear to be a 'metaphor' so far as I can see.   When we think we have something really important to do that is more important than what Jesus is commanding us to do, our acts are futile. Metaphorically speaking, they are as dead as the dead person awaiting burial. Again I ask you, why not let this first reference to "dead" be a metaphor for the futility of human activities when those activities are given status of priority over following Jesus?    jt: Anything given status of priority over following Jesus is an idol but that is another subject entirely.   Grace and Peace, Judy