Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates

[Wm. Taylor]

Izzy, if you would like me to respond further, I will. But I will not be doing it tonight. Please hang tight and I will get back to you later.   Bill   ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates So, Bill, why don’t you respond to my comments (in red)? Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 3:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates   We will be doomed to never come to agreement here? Hope not! Izzy   Me too.   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates   Bill, as I said, thanks (finally J ) for the response.  I will put my comments in Red below. Izzy   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wm. Taylor Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 2:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] God Hates   Izzy asks  >  Why is this so important to you, Bill? Why is the idea that our salvation happened before we believed it (vs the idea that salvation is provided but only occurs when one receives it willingly by faith) of such paramount significance to you?   Because it gives preeminence to Jesus Christ, he whom the Bible calls our Lord and Savior.  Not to be disagreeable, but I DO give ALL preemincence to Jesus.  Arminianism is a nowhere road, Izzy. The only way it works is IF you are willing to put believers alongside Jesus Christ and call them both Saviors. The requirements of faith and obedience do not make us co-redeemers.  They are God’s requirements, not Man’s.  They are repeatedly demanded by God throughout all of scripture.  To insist otherwise is to make one’s theology preeminent over God’s Word. Historically speaking -- since the Reformation, that is -- the other evangelical alternative has been Calvinism. It at least upholds the absolute agency of God in salvation and recognizes humanity as the helpless lot it is. But I am not in favor of what it does to the character of God in the process.   I am excited about Trinitarian\Incarnational Theology because it gets beyond the never ending pitwars of Arminian v Calvinist infighting. This is truly an exceptional theology. It is historically grounded in the early church (not that that makes it true, but it does give it precedence that places it in close proximity to NT times). It upholds the Reformed tenet of sola gracia, yet it does this without shifting blame toward God for those who refuse to believe. At the same time it allows for full participation in salvation, without making salvation an act of co-redemption. Bill I am glad you are excited about something. You may think I’m an airhead because such theological complexities don’t interest me. However to me such endeavors only serve to put Theology above the Simplicity of believing and accepting His Word without second-guessing, questioning, or out-maneuvering HIS will.  Whether or not people argue about their theologies is not an issue for me, and causes me no loss of sleep. I don’t need to resolve it. I don’t need to understand everything about it. I just accept it “as a little child.”   The above mentioned teaching is of paramount significance because it lets love be what it is: unconditional. That is the problem with this Theology you have embraced.  God’s love is not unconditional. It is free for those who will receive it by meeting His conditions, because He paid the price to make it possible.  But Jesus said we should count the cost and gave a few conditions:, “Luke 14:26   If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27   And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28   For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? At the same time it calls us to unconditional obedience. In the words of James B. Torrance (Thomas' younger brother, who died last year at 81) it distinguishes between "legal repentance" and "evangelical repentance." Please consider his words: Legal repentance says: “Repent, and if you repent you will be forgiven,” as if God is persuaded into being merciful by our acts of repentance. No, God gave us these conditions. Jesus said in Luke 13:3 AND 13:5: 3   "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Here our forgiveness is conditional upon our deeds of obedience. Jesus said our obedience is the “fruit” of repentance. Matt:3-9:Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance. When the prodigal son returns, the Father puts off the party of restoration until after the son has truly demonstrated his contrition and change of heart and thus merited the restoration of status. The prodigal son repented by the sheer act of humbling himself and returing. His father could tell what was in his heart before the words were out of his mouth. His father received him because he repented (1st) and returned (2nd).   Evangelical repentance, on the other hand, says: “Christ has borne your sins on the cross, therefore repent.” In evangelical repentance, forgiveness is logically prior to repentance. God has spoken his word of forgiveness on the cross, and it is this word that summons forth our repentance and obedience. The father runs down the road when his prodigal son returns and cuts short the son’s prepared confession, ordering his son’s immediate restoration and the killing of the fatted calf. I could go on and on, Izzy, and, the Lord willing, I will continue to espouse these views. I am very much encouraged by your words earlier. Thanks again. I am glad to be sparking some interest -- even if for now it provides but fodder for disagreement.   Blessings,     Bill   We will be doomed to never come to agreement here? Hope not! Izzy                 ----- Original Message ----- From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:43 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates     Bill wrote: ." The word of truth, the good news of their salvation was already true and real and complete before they heard it, before they trusted in Jesus Christ, and before they believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit.   It seems quite backwards to me. One is sealed with the Holy Spirit when one gets saved. One isn’t saved until they believed.   Luke 19 9   And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. (This was BEFORE He went to the cross.)   Acts 2 21          'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'