jt responded: To love a child is to
discipline a child. God says that an undisciplined child is an unloved
child.
Bill > Nice spin, Judy. But it hardly addresses the point.
Let me ask the question a different way. Let's say you had told your
kids (or your grandchildren) to do their chores, their homework, and to
eat all their vegetables. Would you stop loving them if they did not?
Let's say they did not do these things, and this in spite of knowing how
important they are to you, would you hate them because they disobeyed
you? I'm sure you may discipline them if they didn't do what they were
told, as well you should, but does this make your love conditional? Do
this or I will not love you, but I will discipline you. That doesn't
make much sense to me.
jt: They would be disciplined for
outright disobedience and rebellion. I understand that
some people in this day of instant
gratification interpret discipline as rejection rather than love
and because of parental opposition proper discipline has been
banished from our public schools (here anyway). Rebellion and
disrespect will always cause a breach and put an end to any kind of
meaningful relationship between children and parents and between God and
his creation.
BT wrote: But from where does this right
sense come if not from God? Why should it be wrong for us to place
conditions upon our love if this is how God enacts his love for
us?
jt: God's love is and has always been
conditional even though theology causes some to deny this fact.
These are the ones with private interpretations who dismiss or
ignore the ifs, ands, and buts, of scripture, Love is a two way
street or else there is a breach.
Bill > I've heard this saying many times, Judy.
But I do not believe it. A relationship is a two way street. A loving
relationship is the heart of God. But love itself is not dependent upon
reciprocation.
jt: The wisdom of God speaks as follows:
"I love those who love me, and those
who seek me early and diligently shall find me" (Proverbs
8:17)
"Therefore the Lord the God of Israel says, "I
did promise that your house and that of your father (fore-father Aaron)
should go in and out before Me for ever. But now the Lord says "Be it
far from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who
despise Me shall be lightly esteemed." (1 Samuel 2:30)
"Because He has set his love upon Me,
therefore will I deliver him; I will set him on high, because
he knows and understands My name (has a personal knowledge of My
mercy, love and kindness, trusts and relies on Me, knowing I will never
forsake him, no never). He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I
will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long
life will I satisfy him, and show him My salvation" (Psalm 91:14)
"The person who has My commands and
keeps them is the one who (really) loves Me, and whoever
(really) loves me will be loved by My Father. And I (too) will
love him and will show (reveal manifest) Myself to him - I will let
Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him" (John
14:21)
BT: How could it be? we are to love our enemies. We do not tell
them we will love them if and only if they will love us in return. Jesus
says we are to love them, not expecting anything in return (cf Luke
6.35). This does not sound to me like something that is a two way
street. Quite the opposite, in fact. And is God any different?
jt: No God is not different, He causes it to
rain upon both the just and the unjust; He provides for us all and
everyone is given a measure of time to get it together. However, until
we repent and turn from darkness to light we have no fellowship with Him
or with his people (those who are walking in the light) and His blood in
this case does not not avail for us. All embracing fleshly
compassion is light years away from the love of God. There is a
difference.
BT: Paul says that God demonstrated his love for us, in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us, and that it was while we were
enemies with him that he reconciled us through the death of his son (cf
Rom 5.8,10). Love suffers long, and it does not seek its own. It bears
all things. There is nothing that has to be two way about any of this --
not at least that I can tell. How about you?
jt: Anyone who loves and obeys God and is
living in this old world of sin and shame for very long will have plenty
of opportunity to suffer long and bear all things if they are going to
keep their heart with all diligence staying away from sin
themselves.
BT: I don't know, Judy; I think maybe you've been duped by some
of that philosophy you don't read.
jt: You are the one who knows and can evaluate
the philosophy Bill, but remember satan is the great imitater. God has
given parents the responsibility to train a child in the way he should
go so that he is able to love God, himself and others.
And God Himself sets the example. Scripture
says that without discipline (which is painful) one is a bastard and not
a child of His. (Hebrews 12:8)
BT wrote: God's love is unconditional. He loved us before we loved
him. Did you get that? -- Does this not indicate that he also loved us
before we were meeting any of his requirements?
jt responded: He loved mankind enough to allow
His only begotten son to become a sacrifice for us, however, this
is not carte blanche nepotism. Sin makes a breach that causes God to not
only hide his face from us - but to allow the curse to light because of
our transgression - this is divine justice - What do you do with
that?
Bill > I don't
really know what to do with it, Judy: Where did you get it? I am pretty
confident of this: the curtain has been torn from top to bottom; God is
no longer hiding his face; our sins have been removed as far as the east
is from the west; God remembers them no more; God in Christ reconciled
the world to himself. Does this have anything to do with that?
jt: Have you thrown out everything on the other
side of Calvary Bill? These things were written for our learning
and God has not changed. He is still the same Holy and Righteous
God who struck terror into the hearts of the Israelites when He met with
Moses on Mt.Sinai and said that noone but Moses was to approach
Him. He is just as Holy and hates sin just as much today as He did
then. So until we repent and willingly part with them our sins
have not gone anywhere. We are deceiving ourselves. We can not barge
into the throne room clutching them in one hand and our doctrinal
statement in the other. We come to the sacrifice in time of need
humbly with a repentant heart because the God of Abraham, Isaac,
and Jacob; the God who does not change says: "But this is the man to
whom I will look and have regard, he who is humble and of a broken or
wounded spirit, and who trembles at My word and reveres My commands.
(The acts of the hypocrite's worship are as abominable to God as if they
were offered to idols). (Isa 66:2,3a). God made the ultimate sacrifice by faith and your faith
statement above is potentially true but - as they say "Let's get
real" the world (so far) is not reconciled to God, (not yet anyway), and
there is nothing at all wrong with His memory.
Grace and Peace,
Judy
