RE: [TruthTalk] God Hates

[ShieldsFamily]

Izzy’s new comments in hot pink below: Legal repentance says: “Repent, and if you repent you will be forgiven,” as if God is persuaded into being merciful by our acts of repentance.No, God gave us these conditions. Jesus said in Luke 13:3 AND 13:5: 3   "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Here our forgiveness is conditional upon our deeds of obedience.  BT: I guess I am missing your point, Izzy. How does this take away from what I've said? The "repentance" to which Jesus is referring is a repentance from their rejection of him. If anyone rejects Jesus Christ and the salvation he provided, and then refuses from that moment on to repent, he or she will certainly perish.  Bill please pay close attention to this: you just ignored how scripture completely invalidated the statement (above) by JBT. Please explain how you can accept BOTH statements; JBT’s alongside of Jesus’?   Bill: I'm not real sure where the problem is on this one, Izzy. But I will give it a shot. There is in Scripture the mention (in various ways) of an unpardonable sin, a sin for which there is no forgiveness. In Mark 3 Jesus identifies it as the blasphemy of the Holy Sprit.* The preacher to the Hebrews calls it a trampling underfoot the Son of God.** Peter says it is a denial or refusal of the Lord who redeemed us.*** And John refers to it as the sin which leads to death.**** All of these occurrences (and there are others) have at their source a conflict between the person of Christ and some faction or another of religious leaders, men (or women, if we are speaking in terms of today) who claim a stature or position of knowledge and authority. In each case these are men who blatantly reject Jesus Christ -- they are called "false prophets"; certain ones of them are "Pharisees"; they are "anti-christs," "deceivers," "wolves in sheep's clothing." And in each case there is a blatant refusal to accept Jesus as who he claims or is claimed to be. And so, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is described in each of these instances, is, I believe, a refusal on the part of humans, and especially any who hold positions of religious influence over other people, to receive the convicting witness and testimony and call of the Holy Spirit as to the truth of Jesus Christ, his salvific act, his personal and corporate identity, and/or his divine nature. These are those to whom I believe Christ was referring when he said he will say: "Away from me, I never knew you" (I must also add that I believe until a person, even one of these really rotten ones, takes his or her last breath, there is still time to repent. Nevertheless, John seems to indicate that at some point a person can become so hardened, after so many wonderful but squandered opportunities, that he will not and perhaps can not repent. See cf. 1 Joh 5 -- "I do not ask that [you] pray for [the one who commits the sin which leads to death]"). Bill the scripture that I quoted above did not refer to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus said, “unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” How much more clearly can He state it? Can you admit that refusal to repent of sin IS a rejection of Jesus? Can we agree on that?     This it seems to me is what is going on in the verse you site. These people had been following the crowd, so to speak, to hear what Jesus had to say (Luke refers to them as "some" of the crowd), but were refusing to believe he was who he claimed to be. Instead, they were testing him and trying to trip him up. Jesus, knowing their hearts and intent, tells them they all must repent or they will perish.   Now let's bring J.B. Torrance into the discussion. What he says is that forgiveness logically precedes repentance. Yes, I realize that.  But where did JESUS/scripture say that? I have heard him say that forgiveness carries with it judgment, i.e., a verdict of guilt. If I say I will forgive you for this or that, I am also saying that I think you are guilty of committing whatever it is for which I am forgiving you. The indication that this is true is evidenced in that at first you may be offended that I am extending forgiveness to you. Later on, however, you may have had some time to reconsider and will admit to yourself that, yes, you were guilty. At this point of acceptance is the point where repentance begins to take place. It may still be a while before you are willing to admit to me your guilt, but you at least have begun to acknowledge it to yourself. And that is where one has agreed with God that he is a sinner, repented of his sin, and gotten saved.   This I think is what Torrance sees in the parable of the prodigal son. The father's forgiveness was not dependant upon or conditioned by the actions of the son; i.e., the son did not have to repent in order to persuade the father to be merciful and forgive him. The father's was a heart of forgiveness; he already knew the son would squander his inheritance; their was no question of this in his mind; moreover, the son was guilty as charged. Yet he was forgiven. The father had forgiven him. But there was no reconciliation/relationship, you must admit, until the son repented. His desire was simply for the return of his son. That was the son’s freewill choice to accept or reject the forgiveness.  The transaction was not COMPLETED until the son repented and embraced his father. He missed him and wanted him to come home; hence, as Torrance says, "The father runs down the road when his prodigal son returns and cuts short the son’s prepared confession, ordering his son’s immediate restoration and the killing of the fatted calf." Yes, God has done everything on His end to provide forgiveness.  Yet everyone is hell-bound unless/until they make the choice to agree with God, repent of their sin, and admit that He is their Father God/Lord/Savior.   Yes, indeed, the son's repentance did begin back in the pigpen. It was there that he came to his senses. But, Izzy, it is not, I am confident, his repentance which caused the father to forgive him. He was forgiven long before he repented. As evidenced by the Father having run down the road to greet him.See above.   What would have happened had the son refused to admit what he well knew to be true? He would have lost out on the wonderful experience of his father's love. Not because the father did not love him. But because he was not open to receiving it. The father's desire was for relationship, but the son refused to participate in it. Pure and simple.Exactamundo! He was LOST until he repented and therefore entered into a saving relationship with His Lord.   This last scenario, it seems to me, would be the equivalent to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Here's the kid in the pigpen and the Holy Spirit is there speaking to his heart, telling him he knows his father's heart, that his father loves him and desires nothing more than his return, and the stiff-necked young man says, No! I will have nothing to do with it! I will provide for myself. (In essence saying, I will be my own God.) The son is already forgive, yes, but refusing it nonetheless.   This, it seems to me, should resolve the tension you felt between Torrance's statement and that of Jesus. I pray it does.   Izzy, I will get to your last question later on. I have to go back to work.   Blessing,   Bill    * "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" --Mark 3.28-29 ** Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? -- Hebrews 10.28-29 *** But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  -- 2 Peter 2.1 **** If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. --I John 5.16-17