David Miller wrote:
Terry wrote:
The rich kid was only presented with five of the commandments. He quite obviously did not love the Lord, his God, with all his heart, or he would have forsaken all he had to follow him. He was a sinner, in need of a Savior. As for Paul, Kay; did he not claim to be the chief of sinners? Jonathan wins this one hands down.
While I agree with your sentiments about the rich man not keeping this commandment of the Torah, and while I agree with you that all have sinned and need a Savior, you might want to revisit the passage you mention about "chief of sinners." It doesn't make sense to say that Paul was the chief of sinners at the time when he was writing his letter to Timothy. To say such would be saying that Paul was murdering people and raping women and children and stealing every chance he could. We would have to conclude also that Paul was not only committing sodomy, but that he also committed fornication with animals at the time he wrote this letter to Timothy. None of this makes sense. It would contradict everything Paul taught about the effect of the gospel of Christ to change our lives and impute righteousness into us.
Following is the verse you referenced about Paul being "chief of sinners":
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."
(1 Timothy 1:15-16)
Notice how he starts out saying, "This is a faithful saying..." Paul was basically repeating a proverb that no doubt many people repeated upon their conversion to Christ. Unlike our modern culture, it was common practice then to quote a saying or proverb to convey meaning. Notice also how he says, "Howbeit for this cause (the cause of him being primarily a sinner), I obtained mercy." Consider also that the word "save sinners" implies deliverance from sin. I think the better way to understand this passage is that Paul was foremost among sinners and so the saying applies to him, but he obtained mercy and was saved by Jesus Christ, meaning, he was delivered from his slavery and addiction to sin and from the eternal wrath of God that would be the consequence of that slavery to sin.
Consider 2 Cor. 7:2 where Paul says, "we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man." That sure does not sound like the chief of sinners to me.
Consider Acts 23:1 where Paul said that he had lived in all good conscience before God until that day. How could a person who thought of himself as the chief among sinners have a good conscience before God? Do you think Ananias, the high priest, was justified in having him struck in the mouth?
How could Paul call himself perfect in Philippians 3:15? How could he teach that sinners do not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:21) if he was still chief among sinners?
I do hope you reconsider your perspective and get back to me.
Peace be with you. David Miller.
I did not call Paul a sinner. He said that about himself, and said it in present tense, not past. He was, of course, exaggerating.
Just for the record, I think Paul was only the chief sinner until I came along.
Terry
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---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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