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I believe it was GKChesterton who used the 'wax
nose' metaphor ('The interpretation of any text depends to a large extent on the
kind of commitment we have to its content'). I believe that you Dave, along with
the rest of us continue to exhibit the aptness of the figure of
speech..
----- Original Message -----
Sent: April 05, 2005 02:18
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk]
Eternal Judgment
Debbie Sawczak wrote:
Hi Dave, welcome back.
DAVEH: Thanx Debbie. Sin City is a tough
place to spend a few days. May I suggest that a lessor man (such
as John, perhaps) may have succumbed while I was able to withstand the brutal
forces trying to suck money out of my pocket.... ;-)
You are right about Jesus being the cornerstone
in that passage. But in any case the cornerstone is part of
the foundation and doesn't lay itself. Elsewhere Christ is called the
foundation (1 Cor 3:11, the verse that was in my head) but not in the same
sense, since Paul is laying it. DAVEH: I
understand. And I certainly agree.....Jesus is certainly the foundation
of the gospel and the basis of our faith. Without him....we are
nothing....lost at best.
What I was trying to get across, rather
ineptly perhaps, was that the relationship of Christ to the church
is completely different from that of any other "church-founder" to the
church s/he founded. I was also talking partly just about
the connotation that the phrase "founding a church" has for me. It
sounds to me like starting a new religion or belief
system DAVEH: Do you suppose it appeared like
such to Pharisees?
(whereas note that the prophets are included in
the foundation in Ephesians), on one's own initiative and on the basis
of a private revelation. That isn't what Jesus did. But anyway, I didn't
mean to sidetrack you--continue your conversation with John!
Debbie
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:41 AM
Subject:
Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk] Eternal Judgment
Debbie Sawczak wrote:
Here is how this "Protestant" thinks: Jesus
didn't "found a church" at all. That has jarred for me since
childhood as a thorough misunderstanding. It makes me think of a
voluntary association of people who subscribe to a new set of religious
ideas and practices thought up by (or revealed to) Jesus, and
by which they hope to find their way to God (only Jesus
managed to get it right, like solving a riddle, so it was the
right church).
Jesus didn't lay a foundation, he is and
always was the foundation. DAVEH: That
seems somewhat contradictory to what Paul described in Eph 2:19-20, where
the fellowcitizens with the saints and the household of God (is
that not referring to the greater congregation of the Church as a whole?)
were given a foundation of apostles and prophets (Jesus being the
cornerstone) to form the (hierarchal) framework of the Church. Could
that not be suggesting that a True Church could not exist without
apostles and prophets, nor without such would we come to a unity of faith
and perfecting of the saints as mentioned in Eph 4:11-14? As I
see it, Debbie....I respectfully disagree. I do think Jesus gave us
a foundation of A&Ps, upon which he founded the True Church, so to
speak.
What he did was of a completely
different order than any "church founder", way more radical: unite
God and humanity in life, death, resurrection, and ascension. The result
is that our corrupt humanity is made new, his faith is produced in
us, and we are included with him in the fellowship of
God.
Debbie
DAVEH:
Is this a commonly accepted theory of Protestantism? LDS folks
believe such thinking is flawed, John. IOW.....I believe Jesus
founded the RIGHT
CHURCH and a measured amount of legalism is important
and necessary within that True Church.
What our
Mormon friends do not understand and what you will not admit to,
apparently, is that there was no time when the RIGHT CHURCH EXISTED
except in the Mind of God and via the blood of Christ.
The First Church was steeped in
legalism.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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