Dave,
Let's be fair here. Private conversations with your comrades, whether in the temple or without, is a bit different than what the temple endowmwents contain. I do not ask you what you pray, or to whom you pray. I do not ask you about a personal conversation you had with your bishop, or Blaine, or anyone else. Besides, as you have pointed out, the temple endowmwments are publicized all over the web and in numerous books. What is private about that?
As far as the Trinity. You shall never understand it. The fact that there is a Trinity is a fact. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity. The nature of the Trinity...the way in which the Three are addressed in the bible, where all three share the attributes of God, is clear. Yet, we also know from scripture that there is only ONE God. There must be a resolution to this apparent dilemma. There are basically two...whether the Three are of the same God, combined in some mystical way that we do not (yet) understand...or there are three Gods. Christians, in general, choose the first option. Joseph Smith chose the second. The doctrine of the Trinity, while the nature of the union is not (cannot be) fully understood this side of Heaven, is the ony one that adequately deals with ALL aspects of the nature of the Three revealed in the Holy Word of God. All others have to abuse ignore some aspect of the text to make it fit their view. Some say Christ was not deity, yet the Bible makes it clear that he was. Some make them three separate gods, yet the scripture makes it clear that there is only one God. Some make them all separate manifestations (appearances) of the one God, yet they can appear separately at separate times and interact with one another. A truly mystical union. It has been called a "hypostatic union", but I am not even sure what that means, nor do I think it matters.
Some argue that since the word "Trinity" is not in the bible, there is no such thing. The word "Trinity" is the word used to represent the mystical union of the Three as a single God. Because we can't understand it's very nature does not mean that it does not exist. Life is full of such mysteries...things that we know, but cannot explain or fully understand.
Besides, I do not find any of the Mormon characters from the novel called "The Book of Mormon" mentioned in the Bible. Nor do I find any of the Mormon temple endowments described in the Bible doctrine (although I do see them in handbooks on Masonic rites). For that matter, I do not find the mormon jesus, mormon satan, or mormon god in the Bible, either. In spite of this, you would argue that they are there.
You statement "it seems the T-Doctrine was politically contrived to actually mystify the Trinity in an effort to bring a lot of diverse beliefs under one theological umbrella" just sounds like anti-christian crap. What is your reference for that statement? Is it yours, or is it standard Mormon patter?
The Trinity doctrine is merely man's best attempt at resolving an apparent paradox in the Bible...and as I have stated...it does more justice to the text than any other explanation. And, although mormons apparently cannot bear the thought that there are some aspects of God that we (humans) simply do not understand, there certainly are.
To think otherwise is to make oneself equal with God...and that is what Mormons are trying to do with their un-biblical "men-to-gods" heresy. They have bitten from the proverbial forbidden fruit...they have swallowed Satan's original lie, and are attempting to convince others that it is true, as Satan did with Eve, and as Eve did with Adam in the Garden. When one sins, there are three ways to absolve the guilt. Convince others to join the sin (misery loves company), convince others the sin is not a sin (moral relativism), or drop to one's knees before a merciful and forgiving God, confess their sin, and ask for forgiveness. (The first two only delay the penalty...not remove it).
It is time for the entire body of Mormons to cease from their sin, confess, and ask for forgiveness. The Worldwide Church of God did this a few years back under the inspired and wise leadership of Edward Tkatch...I am sure it can happen within the Mormon church as well, with the help of the Holy Spirit and a handful of spirit filled and inspired individuals in the church. When that occurs, Dave, be sure you are on the side of the Holy Spirit.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:24:46 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave,thanks for your answers.
DAVEH: You are welcome, Perry.
So, what I got from this conversation is that it is a mystery whether mormon women are raised as spirits or F&B, and it is a mystery whether exalted men-gods have multiple wives, and it is a mystery how flesh and bones men-gods produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife or spiritual wife, whichever is the case.
DAVEH: I don't consider it a mystery as much as I do something that is not explicitly explained by Scripture.
We also established that you and the mormon satan and the mormon jesus (and all humans, in the mormon view) are spirit brothers. Full brothers, you say, even though it is a mystery as to whether they have the same mother, which is deduced from the fact that it is a mystery whether exalted men-gods can have more than one wife.
Thanks. I think I understant now. These things are a mystery to the mormons, just like the Trinity is a mystery to Christians. We know it is so,
DAVEH: And that seems to be the difference between us, Perry. You believe in a mystery, whereas the stuff you consider mysteries in Mormonism are not doctrines we consider to be true....they are simply things that some speculate about rather than being doctrine. The Trinity Doctrine on the other hand is a mystery that is believed by most Protestants, as I see it. And...apparently you believe it as well (correct me if I'm wrong) even though it is a mystery to you.
but really don't understand in our earthly view of things how it is so.
DAVEH: What is it that you learn from the T-Doctrine, Perry? And.....Why does it exist? And finally....why do you accept/believe it if it is a mystery to you?
While you endeavor to tie both the theorys about that nature of exalted beings to the mystery of the Trinity, it is apples and oranges.From my perspective, Scripture tells us a lot about the nature of theTrinity....so, there is little reason for it to be a mystery. Yet it seems the T-Doctrine was politically contrived to actually mystify the Trinity in an effort to bring a lot of diverse beliefs under one theological umbrella.
So Perry......after reading the T-Doctrine, do you think you understand the nature of the Trinity better than simply reading the Bible, or does it make the nature of the Trinity more vague?
And, I already knew that the Bible did not support the mormon ideas we have been discussing before you admitted it...I just wanted to know if YOU thought it did...and you confirmed that it does not.
And, I am not "just itching to find out what Mormons would say in private". Have I ever asked you about your private converations with your comrades in faith?
DAVEH: Yes......if I remember correctly, you wanted to know about what we talk about in the Temple.
If I haven't, then please don't make assumptions about what I am itching to find out. Thanks.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:07:32 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I am honest with my responses to you. It is not hypocritical for me to ask for a prooftext. If you asked me the wife/dog question I would answer "neither...next question". That is a valid answer, and gives the correct response. You answered that you do not know of any Mormon position with respect to my question. That is a fair answer.
DAVEH: I'm curious.......why did you ask it a second time?
I formulated these questions based on my understanding of Mormon beliefs which, you have pointed out before, do not always align with what mormons really beleive. So, let me frame my questions in a different light, and maybe I will get an answer. (I really do not expect long answers on these...but I also would not like to get the run-around).
1. Is it true that some mormon men will be (or have been) exalted to godhood, and that in this state they have flesh and bones?
DAVEH: Yes...that is LDS theology.
2. Is it true that these exalted mormon men-gods can (or may choose to) marry multiple wives?
DAVEH: Some LDS folks have speculated such, but I do not recall any specific passages from the Standard Works to support that theory.
3. As far as you know is there a Mormon doctrine, teaching, or belief on whether Mormon women are raised as spirits or as beings with flesh and bones like the men-gods are?
DAVEH: That is a bit confusing, Perry.....But the next question is a bit clearer.
I am talking about the mormon women that become married to exalted Mormon men-gods. Are they flesh and bones, or spirit?
DAVEH: Both.
(I think this is where we diverged on the last go-round. I think this is what you do not know, but it really does not affect the outcome of my questioning. It only decides which question should be asked in the end...but I will ask both below, so that regardless of the answer (or lack of an answer) you will see at what I was getting.)
4. Do the mormon men-gods have sex with their multiple wives (regardless of their nature...spirit or F&B) to produce offspring? (If you do not call it sex, or do not know the method, then forget that term...do they somehow produce offspring with their multipl wives?)
DAVEH: I know of nothing in the Standard Works that addresses your question.
5. Are these offspring spiritual in nature, or of flesh and bones?
DAVEH: If I understand the nature of your question correctly (and now it makes a bit more sense to me than the way you put it before), I would presume (speculation, if you will) that they would be spirit beings because one gains the flesh and bone physical (as we know it) body by being born into mortality. Again....I do not think this is covered in the Standard Works.
[I believe the answer here is "spiritual"...correct me if I am wrong. Blaine has confirmed this before on more than one occasion, and you may have, too.]
6. Is it true that you (and in the Mormon view, all humans) were once such a spirit child of an exalted man-god and one
DAVEH: Yes, that is doctrinal as I understand it.
of his wives?
DAVEH: That is not addressed in the Standard Works.
7. Is it true that the mormon jesus was such a spirit child,
DAVEH: Yes, as I understand it.
and is your (full or half) brother?
DAVEH: Full brother, but I suppose that could be construed as speculation as well. We sometimes refer to him as our Elder Brother, as he was firstborn of the spirits.
8. Is it true that the mormon satan
DAVEH: Interesting way to put that, Perry......May I suggest a better way of stating such would be to say....*.the Mormon teaching about Satan*.....
was also such a spirit child
DAVEH: Yes.
and is your and jesus' (and in the mormon view, all humans') half brother (maybe full brother if any of you had the same mother!)?
DAVEH: We consider both Jesus and Lucifer (as well as ourselves) to be spirit creations of our Heavenly Father. While Jesus is our Elder Brother to whom we are eternally indebted, Satan is a fallen brother who has chosen to fight against the Lord, and has subsequently been cast out of heaven.
Having gotten this far, let me state my two questions based on the answers to the questions above. One applies to the case where these wives are F&B, the other if they are spirits:
A. (Spitual wife case): If an exalted god-man has a spiritual wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could produce spiritual offspring with a spiritual wife. Did he contribute no flesh and bones material to the process?
DAVEH: Not applicable, if I understand the premise correctly.
B. (Flesh and bones wife case): If an exalted god-man has a flesh and bones wife with whom he produces spiritual offspring, of which you were once an example, it seems odd to me that a flesh and bones exalted man could produce spiritual offspring with a flesh and bones wife. Did they not both contribute flesh and bones material to the process?
DAVEH: That question is not directly addressed by LDS theology as far as I know. However, there is certainly some clues/evidence that lends itself to speculation. If I was chatting with another LDS person like Blaine, it would be very easy to speculate about it without getting either of our noses bent out of shape. We could draw some thoughtful conclusions in the end, but it would still be speculation,
Since I know you are just itching to find out what Mormons would say in private, let me give you a primer without going into all the details. As I understand it, spirit matter is not some /ethereal nothing/, but is still a physical material that is just more /refined /(if that is the proper word for it) than the physical matter we think of in the world in which we live. Furthermore, the exalted body of flesh and bones you (I assume) and I believe Jesus now is comprises is not of the same nature as the physical body that we experience in mortality. As I'm sure you know, our mortal bodies are composed of flesh and blood (and spirit), and are not able to walk through walls as did Jesus' resurrected body of flesh and bone. Do you agree with me so far, Perry?
Hence.....You seem to want to draw conclusions as to what will/can happen with exalted bodies based on your experience with mortal bodies. Not only is doing so illogical, but it can lead to inaccurate conclusions. So....in the absence of Scriptural commentary, any such speculation is theological risky.
These two questions are what I was getting at. To me they are paradoxical...to you it is a mystery...questions for which the mormons have no answer.
DAVEH: ??? When did I say I did not have an answer, Perry? The question is whether the answer can be based on doctrinal support of the Standard Works (you specifically asked for Biblical evidence) or whether the answer is based on speculation. Most (though not all, as I stipulated about the F&B nature of an exalted being) of the questions you posed were only answerable by speculation.
You believe something happens (exalted god-men with possibly multiple wives have spiritual babies)...you don't know exactly what or how it happens...a true Mormon mystery.
DAVEH: I think I've said this before, Perry.....I'm not a poster child for the Church. Nor am I the smartest Mormon boy in the LDS Church. Most of the questions you posed only seem like a mystery to you because they are not addressed by Scripture. And when you start speculating about the possible answers, your preconceived notions send you off on a tangent that is far removed from reality of what Mormons believe.
I will forego asking for a prooftext since the Bible will not substantiate any of this.
DAVEH: Ohhhhhh....I guess you must have read my replies that said the same thing, eh.
As for calling your bishop...I was seeking a referral
DAVEH: ??? Referral for what? Do you think the Bishop is a Bishop because he is doctrinally smarter than others in the congregation?
...which I much prefer to cold-calling.
And, since we both know you, it would give us some common ground on which to strike up a conversation :-)
DAVEH: What is it you want to know from a Bishop that you don't think I can explain, Perry?
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0700
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, I do not want to lampoon you...I want to lampoon your belief system.
DAVEH: Ahhhhhh....a minor distinction.
My wanting a prooftext is not hypocritical...
DAVEH: Really? Asking such a leading question of me in that manner is a very pointed attack, as I see it. If I were to answer with a Biblical quote, you could then accurately accuse me of prooftexting, because that is what you asked for....a prooftext. First you accuse me of such, then to affirm your assertions, you request me to supply a prooftext. To me that seems hypocritical.
What if I asked you whether you prefer to beat your dog more than your wife? That would be a similar leading question. Do you want to be thought of as a dog beater....or....a wife beater? It would all be speculation that produces a false conclusion, would it not? That's why leading questions are not allowed in a court of law. Speculation presented in such a manner often times leads to false conclusions.
I believe that the Mormon view of this is heretical and that there is no biblical support for this position,
DAVEH? Mormon view??? Other than the stipulation of God having a body of flesh and bone (which I've discussed in length previously...and will do so again if you wish), there is no Mormon view of what you asked. As I said....it is all (excepting God having flesh and bones) pure speculation. I know of no Scripture or LDS teachings that answer the questions you posed.
so any scripture you quote would be a prooftext. I want to know what prooftexts the Mormons use to substantiate their beliefs on this.
In the past I have been admonished by you: "if you want to know what mormons beleive, ask a mormon".
DAVEH: And I've told you. To my knowledge, the LDS Church has no doctrines about the questions you've brought up. All I've ever heard discussed about such matters has been purely a matter of speculation. Now Perry....you've asked me, and I've told you.
That is what I am doing...giving you an opportunity to set me straight on your beliefs
DAVEH: FTR.......I repeat. I have no doctrinal beliefs about the questions you asked, excepting the exaltation and F&B attributes of God.
before I repeat them...and now you admonish me for having an active imagination.
Maybe Blaine will help us out on this one. Or, you can give me your bishop's phone number and I'll call him and ask. Yes, I will say that you referred me.
DAVEH: ??? For what purpose do you want to talk to my Bishop? You live in Orange County (I think), Perry. There must be one or two down there. :-) Just pick up a phone book and let your fingers do the walking if you want to speak to an LDS Bishop. I suspect he'll affirm what I've just told you.
I ask these questions because they seem to pose a contradiction
DAVEH: It is meaningless contradiction if it is speculation. I can speculate that you would rather beat your dog than your wife....but I don't waste my time. Why would you?
...that men of flesh and bones and women of flesh and bones produce spirit babies...or that men of fleash and bones conjugate with spiritual women and produce spirit offspring.
DAVEH: Like I said....you certainly have an active imagination, Perry.
Perry
From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Hows does this Mormon concept work Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:07:00 -0700
DAVEH: My, you do have an active imagination, Perry. Except for the belief that God is an exalted being that has a physical body of flesh and bone (that houses a spiritual body), which is taught by LDS theology....the rest that you've mentioned below is pure speculation and not supported by any Scripture of which I'm aware. Blaine is a bit smarter than me though....perhaps he knows something I don't.
BTW........For a guy who previously criticized me several times for offering *prooftexts from the bible*, now you are requesting them?!?!?! Hmmmmm.....seems rather hypocritical to me, Perry. Do you really want to know what I believe, and what I believe Scripture teaches, Perry.....or do you just want to lampoon me?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave (and Blaine if you are still around),
I have been wondering this for a few days, and need you help to understand it.
The mormon god is an exalted man, of flesh and bones, right? And, he has multiple (would you say a thousand or so?) spiritual wives, right? And, he has sex with them (or did in the past) to produce spirit babies, right?
May I assume, then, that men who have become gods, yet are still flesh and bones, as you say the mormon god is, can have sex with spiritual wives?
Or, are these wives exalted women of flesh and bones, too? If they were mortal men and women who became exalted, and are of flesh and bones, how do they have spiritual babies? Why do they not have flesh and bone babies? Are there any mormon prooftexts from the bible that support this?
Thanks. Inquiring minds want to know.
Perry
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