Well I guess 15th and early 16th century strumming practice is hard to find and I think we have to do what m'learned friends often rely on; the balance of probabilities.
In this case as we have seen, there is clear evidence for strumming (and plucking) the 4 course guitar in printed sources c. 1550 which I suggest, m'lud, means that the practice was well established by then thus taking us back to the early 16th century. Before that I really have no opinion since I'm not tremendously keen on conjectural reconstructions (having heard many most unlikely ones in a very 'new age' style with much percussion and the rest). In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources) perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands held in a more strumming than a plucking position..... ie right hand not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even higher up towards the neck/body join. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "JocelynNelson" <nels...@ecu.edu>, "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56 On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Dear Stuart, > > I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the > postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I > pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course > books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th > book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.......... > > I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this > stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations > of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these > things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart > Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to > find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short > the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and > thus may have been more common than you might wish. > > It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of > 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that > Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in > his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he > does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my > earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) > regards > > Martyn > > > --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh<[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > From: Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast > To: "Nelson, Jocelyn"<[3]nels...@ecu.edu> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 > > On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: > > Dear Early Guitar List, > > > > If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute > podcast, > > which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je > te > > chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as > well. > > This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to > listen, I > > hope you enjoy it. > > > > > [1][5]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_p odc > ast.cfm > > > > Best wishes, > > Jocelyn > > > > > I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope > you will do more podcasts. > There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of > four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that > the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think > you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad > of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have > raised it in the past. > Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - > older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th > century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course > repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords > which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly > recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by > Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that > Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! > It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in > the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, > for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. > But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect > guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and > minor I, IV, Vs etc. > Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th > century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some > monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply > hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to > try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around > 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and > unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. > Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute > include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of > a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The > block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no > likelihood of strumming there. > But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later > came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were > a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or > were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? > Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder > how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could > have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming > something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been > strumming? > Stuart > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [7]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc ast.cfm > 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html