Dear All,
Sorry to disappoint but I'm not sure what I was doing either! I'm
pretty sure I didn't do any backward raking with the first finger,
though this is something which I do like to do in some contexts (e.g. in
order of play, a6, c5, c4 with thumb, then c3, c4 with first finger,
then a2, a1 with second and third fingers - the "seven note six-note
chord"). Remember even when you play bass to treble, if you have
octaves (as I do on 5th and 6th courses) you get a lot of notes flying
around anyway.
I've always wondered about whether we should be "rolling" chords at all
- I think it's Robinson who talks about playing full chords "plump
together" or something like that. Le Roy describes playing 5-note
chords using either thumb or first finger for the extra note, and
six-note chords using both, but I don't remember whether he says
anything about simultaneity.
French 11-course music has lots of 4-note chords, which presumably were
played using "raking" of some sort rather than using the ring finger as
many do today.
Kapsberger (who didn't use the ring finger at all) marks appegiation on
chords in his theorbo music where the context seems impossible, even for
a rapidly rolled chord.
In general, I think modern players are much too inclined to roll
chords. In polyphonic music, it just seems wrong - you can just imagine
the choirmaster shouting at the tenors for being late, or the basses for
being ahead of the beat. But it takes a lot of skill to play chords
absolutely together while controlling the tone of the individual voices
- a project which is one of many I continue to grapple with....
Best wishes,
Martin
On 05/03/2011 12:35, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
Not commenting on this particular performance by Martin S but on the
new general point you raise regarding playing full chords on the lute.
You seem to be describing a style of playing chords which was ubiqitous
in the 17th century (later than in 3056) but not quite as you report.
The technique, as described best by Mace, is to start the upward (ie
towards one's head not upwards as in pitch) stroke with the index (and
followed with the second if you're so inclined) at the SAME time as the
bass note is 'pinched' (aka plucked) by the thumb.
However I would agree that one rarely finds this style followed by
modern lutenists who invariably seem to prefer the 'rolled' chord (a la
Segovia) rather than that advocated by 17th century lutenists. The
'rolled' chord is, of course, easier to play and I suppose comes
naturally to those brought up on the modern guitar but seems to have
been generally used as a special effect ( 'arpege', 'separe') in this
period.
Martyn
--- On Sat, 5/3/11, Stuart Walsh<s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh<s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
To: "Monica Hall"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Martyn Hodgson"<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Saturday, 5 March, 2011, 9:52
On 04/03/2011 17:25, Monica Hall wrote:
>
>> In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier
sources)
>> perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial
>> evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right
arms/hands
>> held in a more strumming than a plucking position..... ie right
hand
>> not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe
even
>> higher up towards the neck/body join.
>
> But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing with a
plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is
concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers with a
separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say that
this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much used so
how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords?
Brushing up with the thumb or down with the i or i and m (or both!).
I'm not quite sure what Martin is doing on the first full chord of his
latest 'new piece of the month' but it must be a combination of these.
[1]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
Now we could be on the delightful topic of what counts as a strum...
This dignified Prelude that Martin plays is not a strumfest.
Stuart
>
> Monica
>
>
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Martyn
>> --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh<[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Stuart Walsh<[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
>> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> Cc: "JocelynNelson"<[5]nels...@ecu.edu>, "Vihuelalist"
>> <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>> Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56
>>
>> On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>> > Dear Stuart,
>> >
>> > I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow
the
>> > postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)?
- I
>> > pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4
>> course
>> > books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from
>> Morlaye's 4th
>> > book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16..........
>> >
>> > I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck
>> all this
>> > stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh
>> considerations
>> > of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to
>> these
>> > things only to find that months later it seems to have not
been
>> read.
>> Martyn,
>> I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've
>> noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed
have
>> clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully
>> explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And
it's in
>> the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different
directions.
>> I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming
chord
>> sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be
suggesting) -
>> but it's not happening.
>> I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given
definite
>> evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a
news
>> item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm
hoping to
>> get hold of a few more.
>> These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details,
opinions.. and
>> banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to
all,
>> experts and all.
>> (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try
strumming
>> in places and have nothing against it)
>> Stuart
>> > Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not
>> going to
>> > find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later.
In
>> short
>> > the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used
>> later and
>> > thus may have been more common than you might wish.
>> >
>> > It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about
Guerau's
>> work of
>> > 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the
effect
>> that
>> > Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even
>> Jeffreys in
>> > his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of
course,
>> he
>> > does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who
missed
>> my
>> > earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to
4)
>> > regards
>> >
>> > Martyn
>> >
>> >
>> --
>>
[7]?>
>
>
--
References
1. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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