Christopher, thank you very much for these points! Impossible is merely a state of mind. (And a dangerous one at that) The fact is that many things which were once thought to be impossible are now not only shown as possible but done every day.
In fact, a big reason Apple has been as innovative as it has is because Steve Jobs chose to think of possibility rather than impossibility. Honestly, how many people here would have ever thought that any company would have ever made accessibility not only a part of their ongoing business practices but a very part of their company's DNA? I think I'd not be understating if I said most people here now who are devoted iPhone users would have maybe not thought of this actually happening, or at least not to the degree that Apple has made this happen… Yes?… Sure, Apple is certainly a corporation and concerned with doing business, but Apple is also concerned with creating inspiring products as well as making those products and services accessible to as many people as possible. This is also good business. :) Others have sighted money as a concern. I'd simply say let Apple worry about their finances. Let us concentrate on being clear on our needs and what we can contribute. K? Again Christopher, thanks a bunch and talk with you soon! Smiles, Cara :) On Aug 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote: Why do you assume I'm trying to one up you? I just don't agree with you. That doesn't mean I'm trying to one up you. Crowd sourcing and publicly rating applications is fairly common place these days. It's not perfect, but if you get enough people on one side or the other it becomes pretty evident that an app is either accessible or it isn't. Of course, each person's rating is subjective but this will be evened out in the aggregate. Are you saying that the ratings in the App store or on Amazon are meaningless because each person's assessment is subjective? If that's what you're saying then I wouldn't agree. These ratings do have some value, although they may not be the be all and the end all. They are another data point. An automated test suite for accessibility wouldn't be perfect but it would be a starting point. Again, it's another data point, and it could be improved over time. It could also be used in conjunction with other criteria, e.g. if you state your app is accessible in the App Store, and it isn't, then customers and Apple can demand refunds. There are automated test suites out there for accessibility, so this isn't a new concept. It is true that they aren't perfect, and you're going to get some false positives or some false negatives, but like I said, it's a starting point and something to work off of. I agree that accessibility is hard and needs to be well thought out, but I'm not sure I see your alternative. It sounds like you're saying accessibility is impossible so we shouldn't even try. I don't agree with that at all, and I think discussions like this can help work out a solution and some answers. I'm sorry, but I also thought your analogy was silly. Even if you'd said building a highway over the Atlantic between the US and Europe or building a highway over the Pacific between the US and Asia, I still would have thought it was a silly and pointless analogy. An analogy is good when there's actually a relationship between what you're discussing and the analogy you're making. In your case, you just picked something at random that sounds impossible. Accessibility and assessing accessibility is not impossible. It's hard, takes some thought and ultimately will be a lot of work, but Apple has a lot of resources and has demonstrated a commitment to accessibility, so I don't think it's impossible, but it will be if people don't brain storm and discuss different possibilities. On 08/03/2013 11:31 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote: > Oh no! not this list too! Why does everyone on these lists have to try to > one-up everyone else! > > I prefaced my statements by conveying the Asian continent as an extreme > example. I think you understood what I meant. > > Your crowd sourcing idea would not work because we're right back to what I > stated in regards to "who's opinion is best?" > > The automated testing suite would not work as it will undoubtedly yield tons > of false positives and will give the developer an "out" as he or she will > undoubtedly claim they ran their app through this suite and all looked fine. > > Because I've been here done that, I'm sorry but I'm now walking away from > this type of one upping. I think most got my point in that simply demanding > for accessibility is not easy and involves lots of thought and. I just > wanted to convey a point which I'm sure all others got. > > Joseph > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Chaltain" <chalt...@gmail.com> > To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund > > > If Apple were to implement something like this, I'd suggest using crowd > sourcing. I'm not saying it would be trivial, but add another > feedback/rating for accessibility and let users provide their input. Of > course, this wouldn't address the issue for the first few people that > had to buy and try an app before it's been reviewed by someone. > > Apple could also invest in an automated accessibility test suite that > would give a rough indication if an app has met at least some basic > accessibility. This wouldn't be perfect, and there's still some > subjectivity, but it would be a starting point. Apple may already have > such a suite it uses for it's own apps. > > It may be true that this idea hasn't been well thought out,, in that an > implementation hasn't been designed, but I think there are some > solutions out there that aren't as impossible as you imply. I also don't > think this is at all like asking for a super highway to be built across > the Atlantic to connect the US and Asia. I think there's definitely > something that can be done here, while building a highway between the US > and Asia over the Atlantic is impossible in many ways, not the least > that Asia doesn't border the Atlantic. > > On 08/03/2013 09:25 PM, Joseph FreeTech wrote: >> I believe Aman has made great points. Furthermore, it is not likely Apple >> will successfully achieve a VoiceOver ratings system any time soon as >> there >> is just too much subjective criteria at play. >> 1. Who is going to be the person at Apple who has determined that an app >> is >> accessible? >> >> 2. What constitutes accessibility? Accessing 60% of an apps features? 70%? >> 90? 100%? >> >> 3. If Apple allows the developer to determine that their app is >> accessible, >> then you might end up in tons of wasted customer service time in that the >> blind customer spending hours and days of their and Apple's time trying to >> convince Apple that the app developer lied because of X feature not being >> accessible. I'm having a tough time accepting that someone would take >> countless hours and even days of their time for $1 or $3. In the end, >> while >> the person might get a refund, they will have probably spent some $100 in >> time for that single $3 refund. I've found that its much easier to let it >> go. :) >> >> 4. There are some 500,000 apps in the Apps store, who at Apple is going to >> test all of those apps for accessibility? This means Apple will need to >> train a large team of individuals to determine what is accessible and what >> is not or what is semi-accessible and what is not. All this means time, >> effort, and tons of costs. >> >> 5. What exactly is meant by "Accessibility?" Apple will absolutely have to >> define and address this question before taking any first steps to achieve >> it. There are still some holes in the ADA, and if the 600+ house and >> senate >> members including the president had a tough time defining "reasonable >> accommodations," then it is likely a business will not want to get >> anywhere >> near this issue unless forced to do so. >> >> 6. In Windows 8, Microsoft has tried this accessibility tag in their >> Windows >> store and many developers have chosen to list their apps as accessible >> even >> though these aps cannot be used by a blind individual. Remember, >> accessibility means lots more than just accessible to the blind. Again, >> we're back to how will Apple implement such a system? Will they leave it >> in >> the hands of the developer, or will they use their own team which accepts >> or >> rejects submitted apps. If they do it in-house, this means training either >> all of their employs or this means training a select group; if so, this >> will >> have to be quite a large group. >> >> Don't get me wrong, I think Apple should start somewhere, but it will be >> difficult to actually develop such a system rather than many of us making >> demands that have not been really thought out. :) I guess its like asking, >> why not just build a super highway across the Atlantic from the US to Asia >> since there is tons of area to build? Extreme example? Yes, but I meant it >> to be so to bring home my points regarding how to define, describe, and >> implement accessibility. Heck, there are still some debating how one >> accurately describes a screen reader. >> >> Guys, I want the same thing you do, but if it is going to be done, it >> might >> as well be done right and done right the first time, so let's not make >> hasty >> demands as we might end up getting what we want--as defined by a single >> individual at Apple. >> >> Just some spur of the moment thoughts. >> >> Joseph >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Aman Singer" <aman.sin...@gmail.com> >> To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 6:45 PM >> Subject: Re: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app refund >> >> >> Hi, alan. >> You say >>> what happens when a sighted person gets an app and they think it doesn't >>> meet their needs. >> >> With respect, that depends on whether the description accurately told the >> sighted user what the application would do. If the textual description and >> the screenshots the app store presented gave an accurate description of >> the >> app, then the user has nothing to complain of. If the description was >> inaccurate, then the user should get a refund. THe problem, of course, for >> the blind user is that the description may or may not be true. The app may >> say it can do X, and may in fact do X for a sighted user but not for a >> user >> of VO. For the VO user, the description is simply false unless it says >> that >> VO will not work with the app. It seems plain that the VO user is entitled >> to an accurate description, one which says whether the app will actually >> do >> what it says it will. Failing that, the user is entitled to try the >> product >> to see if the description is false. Failing even that, the user is >> entitled >> to a refund if the description turns out to be nonsense. Apple has chosen >> not to allow the first or second options, it seems only reasonable, though >> not fully satisfactory, for them to allow the third. >> Aman >> dealer of what it 2013-08-03, at 1:08 PM, "Alan Paganelli" >> <alanandsuza...@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> My concern here is this. So what happens when a sighted person gets an >>> app and they think it doesn't meet their needs. Do they get a refund? >>> I'd guess not. This sounds to me to much like pulling out the blind >>> card. >>> What I'm saying here is, if there is a satisfaction guaranteed or your >>> money back policy in place then that's one thing but just because it >>> doesn't work well with voice over may not fly. >>> ------- >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> Go Chicago Bears in 2013! >>> >>> Teenagers; Tired of being harassed by your stupid parents? Act now!!!!! >>> Move out. Get a job. Pay your bills wile you still know everything. >>> >>> Please click on: >>> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alanandsuzanne/ >>> There, you'll find free files of my arrangements and performances played >>> on >>> the Yamaha Tyros 1 keyboard. The albums in Technics format formerly on >>> my website are still available upon request. Thanks for listening! >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Sieghard Weitzel >>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com >>> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2013 1:49 AM >>> Subject: RE: Bad experience with iTunes Store support regarding app >>> refund >>> >>> Hi Cara, >>> >>> I agree and think that unless Apple comes up with a better way to do this >>> they should be willing to give Voiceover users a refund without the >>> hassle. I must say, however, that I really like that 15 minute return >>> policy Google apparently offers, but of course trying to get Apple to do >>> something like that is not just a completely different ball game, it’s a >>> different sport! >>> >>> If Apple was really concerned that this would be abused, they could >>> request proof that somebody is actually visually impaired or they could >>> limit refunds to a certain number per year. I am very sure that given >>> their computers they could easily track this on somebody’s Apple Id. >>> >>> If you are getting involved in this feel free to use my below messages as >>> an example, I am pasting the message I sent without the purchase details, >>> i.e. order number and all that, as well as the response I received. >>> It was obvious that the person who responded somehow seemed to understand >>> the situation, but on another level she apparently didn’t. She summarized >>> my request by saying I “inadvertently “ purchased some apps which of >>> course is not at all the case and not what I said. >>> Here is my initial message and her reply which makes me think she really >>> didn’t get it despite the fact that she said it was an “appropriate >>> exception” and they would refund me the money which still has not >>> happened: >>> >>> From: Sieghard Weitzel [mailto:siegh...@live.ca] >>> Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:04 AM >>> To: 'itunesstoresupp...@apple.com' >>> Subject: Voiceover inaccessible apps >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> My name is Sieghard Weitzel. I recently purchased several apps for >>> tracking packages in order to find out which one offered the best >>> features. I tried a couple more, but they had free Lite versions which >>> allowed me to try them before buying the full version. >>> >>> I am blind and have been an iPhone/Voiceover user for almost 4 years and >>> unfortunately I found that two of the paid and 2 of the free/Lite apps >>> have accessibility issues and I was not able to use them with Voiceover. >>> I >>> wrote to the developers, but have not received any reply as to whether >>> they might consider making improvements so the apps would work with >>> Voiceover. I used iTunes credit to pay for the paid apps and was >>> wondering >>> if it was possible to receive a refund since I have already deleted the >>> apps from my phone. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: iTunes Store [mailto:itunesstoresupp...@apple.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 4:50 PM >>> To: siegh...@hotmail.ca >>> Subject: Re: Voiceover inaccessible apps; Follow-up: 280679929 >>> >>> Dear Sieghard, >>> >>> Greetings from iTunes Store Customer Support. My name is Alishia and I am >>> happy to assist you today. >>> >>> I understand that you inadvertently purchased some apps from the App >>> Store >>> and you would like to receive a refund for the purchase. I know how >>> important it is to have the issue resolved. I assure you of assistance. >>> >>> Sieghard, after reviewing the circumstances of your case, we determined >>> that issuing you a refund for the purchase of "Apps" is an appropriate >>> exception to the iTunes Store Terms and Conditions, which state that all >>> sales are final. >>> >>> You will see 6.70 CAD added to your store credit balance within 48 hours. >>> You may need to sign out of the iTunes Store and then sign back in before >>> you see the credit in your account. >>> >>> The iTunes Store provides a warning message that asks if you are sure >>> that >>> you want to buy an item. This warning can be turned off. If you would >>> like >>> to make sure that this warning is on, you can reset the warnings in the >>> iTunes Store by following the instructions in this article: >>> >>> Resetting iTunes Store warnings >>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1734 >>> >>> Additionally, you can make modifications on certain devices that will >>> prevent them from making purchases: >>> >>> iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch: Understanding Restrictions >>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4213 >>> >>> I hope the information provided would resolve your issue. >>> >>> Sieghard, if you have any additional questions, please let me know and I >>> will be happy to assist you further. Thank you for being a valued member >>> of iTunes family. >>> >>> Have a nice day! >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Alishia >>> iTunes Store Customer Support >>> http://www.apple.com/support/itunes/ww/ >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> > -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing viphone+ow...@googlegroups.com. Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing viphone@googlegroups.com. Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/. 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