Re: Bahai jihad? Re: Men and Women equal?

[Rich Ater]

Rich: I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that the 12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or that their rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12 Imams were the temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah. I know you don't cheer the Ummayad, but the majority of Muslims did not follow Hussayn to Karbilah, they recognized the leadership of Mu'awiyyah. Gilberto: I think there are a couple of levels of this which were starting to get blurred. You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have continued as a valid religion. Right? And I would say that if you start with the Bahai perspective, that Shia Islam strongly preserves the teachings of the religion of Islam. I see your point, but I'm not saying that another revelation would not have come. I'm saying if ALL of Islam had accepted Ali, as the infallable Imam, and accepted the other 11 Imams after him, then the change of revelations would have been seemless. I am also saying that had this occurred the spread of Islam would have been even greater than it was. The fact is that the Shi'a have always been a minority, and often a despised minority, as a perusal of Ibn Taymiyyah will illustrate. And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a spiritual successor to the prophet. No you don't. The Sunni see Ali as a temporal successor, one of the four rightly guided Khalifs, even the Sufis don't see him as infallable. By the way, there seems to be a decidely anti-Sufi feeling in many Sunni circles these days. I refer to the Deobandi and Wahabi outlooks. But the sunni and shiite theology is there.     I disagree that the theology is still there. Rich: So what, so is the Nicean creed, does it negate Islam? Gilberto: I don't believe that the Nicean creed is necessarily authentic Christianity. The real Christians were probably all eaten by lions or never left the catecombs. There are some Jewish Christian (like Ebionites) groups with docetic tendancies which from a Muslim perspective seem a likelier candidate for representing the true followers of Jesus.     Interesting thought, so there were few Christians left at the advent of Muhammad (PBUH)? As to the Nicean creed there is as much argument for it being Divinely inspired as there is for current fiqh and sharia. Remember the original question was your claim that if the majority had accepted Ali that Islam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai perspective where Shiism was the correct view, then shiism still exists and the writings and teachings are still there and in place. Rich: Once again, skirting the issue. The shi'a believe that the 12th Imam went into occulatation, we believe he came out of occultation, ie the Bab and Heralded the Return of Christ ie Baha'u'llah. That is Shi'a theology fulfilled to us. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean by skirting the issue. So what would have been different if the majority had accepted Ali? What I mean by skirting the issue is that the majority of Muslims do not accept the Shi'a stance, even if it is still there. That was my point. Rich __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu