On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:14:42 -0500, Iskandar Hai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See below..
> Quoting Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:31:43 -0500, Iskandar Hai
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Gilberto (not dear Gilberto):
> > > If by moral relativism you mean the kind of mentality and attitude
> > that
> > > anything goes and everything is OK, then Baha'is are definitely
> > not
> > > moral relativists.
Gilberto:
> > In previous conversations I've had with them both Mark and Susan
> > affirmed that they believed in moral relativism.
Iskandar:
> So, again, you took my comments and earlier comments/postings of Mark
> and Susan out of context and made distortions. Well, that's not the
> first time you have done this. I bet it won't be the last time either.
Gilberto:
Please don't make unfounded accusations. I didn't distort anything.
That's how they both chose to categorize their positions. I wasn't
putting words in their mouths. And they are both grown-ups and are
certainly capable of speaking for themselves.
Iskandar
> > > For instance, in the early days of Islam wine was
> > > not strictly and categorically forbidden under all circumstances.
Gilberto:
> > But even from the beginning it was recognized that wine was harmful
> > and that there was something wrong with it.
> > [2.219] They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In
> > both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and
> > their sin is greater than their profit.
Iskandar:
> But there was a verse revealed earlier that says: don't come to prayer
> sessions when you are drunk. Quran 2:219 was revealed later; it was the
> second step and 2:219 was not (is not) a categorical prohibition of wine
> under all circumstances.
Gilberto:
I don't know if there are any sources which give the order you are
talking about. Some of the pages I've looked at say that 2:219 was the
first of the three verses dealing with intoxicants and the one you are
talking about was second.
In any case, the chemical formula for alcohol didn't change when the
Quran came down, so its always had certain effects. I think that the
fact that alcohol is problematic is a constant.
Gilberto:
> > I wouldn't consider the change in qiblah a moral issue.
> >
> >
>
> I would.
What does the Quran say?
[2.177] It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the
East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe
in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the
prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin
and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for
(the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the
poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a
promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of
conflicts-- these are they who are {rue (to themselves) and these are
they who guard (against evil).
Gilberto:
So how are you defining morality?
Iskandar:
> So, what's your hang up with the things in the Quran and Bible about
> Abraham?
Gilberto:
It's not a hang-up. I'm perfectly happy to let the matter drop. I just
wouldn't want to casually suggest that prophets might lie or commit
idolatry.
Peace
Gilberto
"My people are hydroponic"
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