Thank you Popeye,
Very much.
Ron
On 7/31/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 7/31/2005 2:12:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> As for the Bible, as you know, I know it. The stoning incident is an
> important one. But I do not think your interpretation is viable. It is
> not consistent with the rest of the New Testament.
>
> Jesus said "" let he who is without sin amongst you cast the first
> stone". In saying this, He obviously banned stoning for all time and
> in all places for those who would follow Him. For who amongst us is
> without sin? Certainly not anybody, so no one can ever justifiably
> stone anyone ever again. In fact , the only One present that day who
> was without sin, and thus might have met Jesus' requirement to stone
> the adulteress, was Jesus Himself. That is why, after all the would-be
> stoners dropped their stones and slunk away, He next said "Neither do
> I condemn thee, Go thy way and sin no more"
>
> Thus Jesus Himself refused to follow the Old Testament law and stone
> the adulterer.
>
> Jesus repeatedly, all through the Gospels, refuses to obey the Old
> Testament Laws time and time again, and He does so publicly and makes
> doubly certain that people notice He does this. He violates the
> Sabbath; He eats the forbidden shew-corn.; etc. etc. And He even gives
> reasons why it is right to violate these laws.
>
> And, both from a conventional Christian point of view, as well as a
> Baha'i point of view (as expounded by our Central Figures), Paul's
> commentary on the Law is every bit as binding and authoritative as any
> other part of the New Testament.
>
> Now, Jesus personally violated many of he Laws, He did so publicly, He
> led and caused His disciples to do so also, and He even gave His
> reasoning why it was right to to do so. And yet Jesus also said "Not
> one jot or tittle of the Law shall pass away". (John 5:17) How do we
> reconcile these things?
>
> Obviously, Jesus Spiritualized the Law. He most certainly did not "do
> away" with it; but He transcended it, commuted it to Spiritual
> principles, and thus fulfilled it and caused the Law to transcend
> itself and morph into a far greater form of Spiritual Law (which Jesus
> Himself describes elsewhere).
>
> I do not believe that these things are in dispute. Normative
> Christianity has always believed thus, the New Testament explains it
> clearly and indisputably, and our Baha'i Central Figures have upheld
> the New Testament.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> --------------------
>
> Question. -- Is the ablution of baptism useful and necessary, or is it
> useless and unnecessary? In the first case, if it is useful, why was it
> abrogated? And in the second case, if it is useless, why did John practice
> it?
>
> Answer. -- The change in conditions, alterations and transformations are
> necessities of the essence of beings, and essential necessities cannot be
> separated from the reality of things. So it is absolutely impossible to
> separate heat from fire, humidity from water, or light from the sun, for
> they are essential necessities. As the change and alteration of conditions
> are necessities for beings, so laws also are changed and altered in
> accordance with the changes and alterations of the times. For example, in
> the time of Moses, His Law was conformed and adapted to the conditions of
> the time; but in the days of Christ these conditions had changed and altered
> to such an extent that the Mosaic Law was no longer suited and adapted to
> the needs of mankind; and it was, therefore, abrogated. Thus it was that
> Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce. After Christ four disciples,
> among whom were Peter and Paul, permitted the use of animal food forbidden
> by the Bible, except the eating of those animals which had been strangled,
> or which were sacrificed to idols, and of blood.[1] They also forbade
> fornication. They maintained these four commandments. Afterward, Paul
> permitted even the eating of strangled animals, those sacrificed to idols,
> and blood, and only maintained the prohibition of fornication. 94 So in
> chapter 14, verse 14 of his Epistle to the Romans, Paul writes: "I know, and
> am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but
> to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
> [1 Acts 15:20.]
>
> Also in the Epistle of Paul to Titus, chapter 1, verse 15: "Unto the pure
> all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is
> nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
>
> Now this change, these alterations and this abrogation are due to the
> impossibility of comparing the time of Christ with that of Moses. The
> conditions and requirements in the later period were entirely changed and
> altered. The former laws were, therefore, abrogated.
>
> The existence of the world may be compared to that of a man, and the
> Prophets and Messengers of God to skillful doctors. The human being cannot
> remain in one condition: different maladies occur which have each a special
> remedy. The skillful physician does not give the same medicine to cure each
> disease and each malady, but he changes remedies and medicines according to
> the different necessities of the diseases and constitutions. One person may
> have a severe illness caused by fever, and the skilled doctor will give him
> cooling remedies; and when at some other time the condition of this person
> has changed, and fever is replaced by chills, without doubt the skilled
> doctor will discard cooling medicine and permit the use of heating drugs.
> This change and alteration is required by the condition of the patient and
> is an evident proof of the skill of the physician.
>
> Consider, could the Law of the Old Testament be enforced at this epoch and
> time? No, in the name of God! it would be impossible and impracticable;
> therefore, most certainly God abrogated the laws of the Old Testament at the
> time of Christ. Reflect, also, that baptism in the days of John the Baptist
> was used to awaken and admonish the 95 people to repent from all sin, and
> to watch for the appearance of the Kingdom of Christ. But at present in
> Asia, the Catholics and the Orthodox Church plunge newly born children into
> water mixed with olive oil, and many of them become ill from the shock; at
> the time of baptism they struggle and become agitated. In other places, the
> clergy sprinkle the water of baptism on the forehead. But neither from the
> first form nor from the second do the children derive any spiritual benefit.
> Then what result is obtained from this form? Other peoples are amazed and
> wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the
> cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or
> conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John
> the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and
> to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to
> await the manifestation of Christ. Whoever received the ablution of baptism,
> and repented of sins in absolute humility and meekness, would also purify
> and cleanse his body from outward impurities. With perfect yearning, night
> and day, he would constantly wait for the manifestation of Christ, and the
> entrance to the Kingdom of the Spirit of God.[1]
> [1 I.e., of Christ, Whom the Muslims frequently designate by the title of
> Ruhu'llah, the Spirit of God.]
>
> To recapitulate: our meaning is that the change and modification of
> conditions, and the altered requirements of different centuries and times,
> are the cause of the abrogation of laws. For a time comes when these laws
> are no longer suitably adapted to conditions. Consider how very different
> are the requirements of the first centuries, of the Middle Ages, and of
> modern times. Is it possible that the laws of the first centuries could be
> enforced at present? It is evident that it would be impossible and
> impracticable. In the same manner, after the lapse of a few centuries, the
> requirements of the present time will not be the same as 96 those of the
> future, and certainly there will be change and alteration. In Europe the
> laws are unceasingly altered and modified; in bygone years, how many laws
> existed in the organizations and systems of Europe, which are now abrogated!
> These changes and alterations are due to the variation and mutation of
> thought, conditions and customs. If it were not so, the prosperity of the
> world of humanity would be wrecked.
>
> For example, there is in the Pentateuch a law that if anyone break the
> Sabbath, he shall be put to death. Moreover, there are ten sentences of
> death in the Pentateuch. Would it be possible to keep these laws in our
> time? It is clear that it would be absolutely impossible. Consequently,
> there are changes and modifications in the laws, and these are a sufficient
> proof of the supreme wisdom of God.
>
> This subject needs deep thought. Then the cause of these changes will be
> evident and apparent.
>
> Blessed are those who reflect! 97
>
> (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 96)
>
>
>
>
>
>
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