The Baha'i Studies Listserv But it still discriminates in who can read aloud. Reading usually means that.
Sent from my iPad On Aug 30, 2012, at 15:48, Gary Selchert <ebedeyn...@aol.com> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Mashriqu'l-Adhkars are marketed? I have never heard of them refered to as > Ecumenical Houses of Worship; they are refered to as Baha'i Houses of > Worship. Certainly all are welcome to visit, and to pray, meditate and read > silently the books of their choice, as do the others present. Baha'i > Authorities decide what is read and spoken aloud and what otherwise happens > there. > > You believe the authority of the House of Justice is invalid because western > judicial procedure is not observed? You probably should not submit to that > authority. You are convinced that the House of Justice is an authoritarian > kangaroo court? I think your only solution is to run the other way and avoid > all contact with Baha'is and the institutions under which we live. Or I > suppose you could file an amicus brief with House of Justice defending our > rights to read aloud the Tao Te Ching or the Orphic Poems. > > But you are of course free if you choose, to visit the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and > to read silently there the literature of your choice, chosen by whatever > rational standards appeal to you of what constitutes Scripture, just as I am. > Next time I go I may take the Tao Te Ching with me and read silently. No one > will say a thing. > > Peace, > Gary > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> > To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:38 am > Subject: Re: Manifestations, Scriptures, and Houses of Worship > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Why would non-Baha'is go to a MA (abbreviation)? MAs are marketed (may > unintentionally) as an eucmenical place of worship where sermons are > forbidden because sermons tend to promote particular religions. Really, why > would Jews/Christians/Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists/Zoroastrians/Babis/Bayanis/etc > opt to go to MA either alongside or instead of going to a > synagouges/churches/masjids/temple/shrines/altars/gurdwaras/etc,? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority > > The fact that making an appeal to authority is a fallacy, doesn't mean > authorities are never to be trusted. It means that because an authority says > something doesn't make it true in and of itself. Noting that such thinking is > fallacious, as well, doesn't make something an authority says false in and of > itself. > > You assume there are no standards by which people can use if there are no > authorities to define concepts like religion and scripture. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text > > Your courts ananlogy is flawed because it's not just tradition that makes > courts do what they do. Courts exists to resovle court cases. Court cases > involve two sides tying to make their cases as to the truth and justice. > Evidence is presents and arguments are made not because of tradition but > because that's how people find things out by investigating. Only after the > end of the proccess does a deicision get made. Courts would not be able to > serve either law or justice if they didn't. > > Kangaroo courts in banana republic are different. They only exist to dish out > decisions without regards to law or justice. Take for example the blind man > from China who was persecuted because he pointed out that China's one child > policy was illegal. In China as well as other authoritarian regime, they're > not concerned with truth or justice (except maybe in name). Authoritarian > regime have no quadries about declaring innocent people guiltly and vice > versa. > > From: Gary Selchert <ebedeyn...@aol.com> > To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: Manifestations, Scriptures, and Houses of Worship > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Hi Stephen...I must say that I find your comment that Don's response is > "littered with appeal to authority" is very strange, a bit like saying my > back yard is littered with grass that is growing in it. Someone makes a > decision as to whether anything can be read in a Mashriqu'l-Adhkar or only > Scripture. A Baha'i Authority makes that decision. Having decided that only > Scripture can be read, someone must decide what constitutes Scripture for > this purpose. A Baha'i authority makes that decision as well. > > As with the U.S. Supreme Court, some decisions have no appeal. They are > final. Unlike the U.S. Supreme Court, the Guardian was not and the Universal > House of Justice is not obliged by tradition to hear public arguments or to > write down the reasons for which they make a decision. They simply decide. > The rest of us are free to speculate, calculate, imagine or guess what their > reasoning might be. Our reasoning yields opinions. Their decision is based on > Covenant authority and yields "unyielding" policy. > > Many people have been inspired in their lives by reading "The Hidden Words" > yet were not inclined to become Baha'is and yield to Absolute Authority. More > than a few have formally declared their faith in Baha'u'llah only to realize > at a later date that they were unable to live their lives in accordance with > religious authority and so they went their separate ways. > > The Baha'i community recognises as Baha'is those people who are willing to > accept Covenant Authority. In the U.S. it is required that we ascent to this > in writing. Many people share many beliefs and views with Baha'is but do not > choose to submit to authority. We usually call these people friends of the > Faith, but we don't usually or officially call them Baha'is, even when we > wish they would submit and become Baha'is. > > I have long been a great lover of the Tao Te Ching. I read it frequently as > an inspiring piece of spiritual and philosophical wisdom literature. I wish > it were on the list. But it's not. And I am not a Baha'i authority. I am just > an old man with ideas and opinions. The world is full of people with ideas > and opinions. > > The Baha'i Faith contains, references and suggests many great ideas. But it > is defined by Authority. > > Peace, > Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Gray <skg_z...@yahoo.com> > To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Sent: Wed, Aug 29, 2012 1:48 pm > Subject: Re: Manifestations, Scriptures, and Houses of Worship > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Again, DC, I'm not debating the definition of religion, Religion, revelation, > or Revelation. Actually, this would seem like splitting hairs to the > followers of an given religion. This isn't the point given the > Jewish/Samaritan, Christian, Islamic, Babi/Bayani, Hindu, Buddhist, and > Zoroatrian scripture can be read there. This obviously shows that a > Religion's/Revelation's founders being a Manifestation or it's scripture > being scripture. > > Your response is littered with appeal to authority. "X is X because an > authority says that X is X" is your basica argument. Also, the abscence of > evidence is evidence of abscence is also used to say that "If X isn't named > as X by an authority, then it's not X". You lists no actual criteria other > than an authority's word as a litmus test for deciding if someone or > something claiming to be "X" is "X or non-X". You can substitute "X" for > "Manifestation, Revelation, Religion, Scripture, etc.". > > Wikipedia's definition of a Bahai House of Worship is at the bottom. Also, > technically Mashriqu'l-Adhkar only trasnlates to Dawning-place of the > rembrances. Dhikr means remembrance and adhkar rembrances. Some texts use > dhikr Allah, dhikr'ullah, or some other variant for remembrance of God. > > > A Bahá'í House of Worship, sometimes referred to by its Arabic name of > Mashriqu'l-Adhkár (Arabic: مشرق اﻻذكار, "Dawning-place of the remembrances > of God"),[1] is the designation of a place of worship, or temple, of the > Bahá'í Faith. The teachings of the religion envisage Houses of Worship being > surrounded by a number of dependencies dedicated to social, humanitarian, > educational, and scientific pursuits, although none has yet been built to > such an extent.[2][3] > Only eight continental Houses of Worship have been built around the world[4] > serving for continental areas (this includes one in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan > that has since been destroyed), with a ninth soon to be constructed in Chile. > In the Ridván Message for 2012, the Universal House of Justice announced new > initiatives for future Houses of Worship, calling for the first national and > locally based institutions. [5] The first two "national Mashriqu'l-Adhkars" > are to be raised up in two countries: the Democratic Republic of the Congo > and Papua New Guinea. With successful growth and cluster development it was > also announced that the erection of the first local Houses of Worship would > be raised up. Bahá'í communities own many properties where Houses of Worship > remain to be constructed as the Bahá'í community grows and develops further. > The Houses of Worship are open to the public, and are exclusively reserved > for worship, where sermons are prohibited and only scriptural texts may be > read. Most Bahá'í meetings occur in local Bahá'í centres, individuals' homes, > or rented facilities.[2] though local houses of worship are forthcoming. > > > From: Don Calkins <don59...@gmail.com> > To: Baha'i Studies <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:29 AM > Subject: Re: Manifestations, Scriptures, and Houses of Worship > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:10 05AM, Stephen Gray wrote: > >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The thread is mostly about the scriptures, but also covers religions and >> their founders. >> >> The question wasn't about the word unity in unity of religion, but the word >> religion in unity of religion? Do Bahai's mean unity of religion or unity or >> "Judaism/Samaritanism, Christianity, Islam, Bab(i)ism/Bayan(i)ism, >> Baha(i)ism, Buddhism, and Hinduism/Vishnuism/Krishnaism"? Also, Sabianism is >> also an enumerated religion, but it's identity is uncertain of Hermeticism, >> Mandeaism, or any other religion. > > The term "religion" has several meanings. In this case it refers to the > Revelation from God, not the system of belief that grew up around that > Revelation. The religion that resulted is based on the Religion that was > revealed, but the two are not identical. > > >> When Baha'is speaks of unity of religion, they mean unity of seven or so >> enumerated religions rather than religion itself or all religion. Even if >> unity of religion means religions were aligned with the will of God at the >> time of their founding, that leads to implications for omitted religions. >> The blog post was about how Baha'i Houses of Worship have strict limitations >> on what scriptures can be read. > > If you mean some religions as opposed to Revelations are omitted, then it is > true. but for a Baha'i, these religious philosophies are manmade and > therefore wholly secondary to the Revelations from God. As to the blog post, > it is irrelevant to a Baha'i because it is not based on authenticated > authoritative statements. > > >> >> I'm not sure what exactly is on and off the list, but I can make guesses. >> >> No you can't read the Tao Te Ching (or Dao De Jing depending on >> romanization), because Taoism (or Daoism) was never aligned with the will of >> God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion today to not >> even allow the scripture to be read at all. >> >> No you can't read the Guru Granth Sahib, because Sikhism was never aligned >> with the will of God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion >> today to not even allow the scripture to be read at all. >> >> No you can't read the Analects, because Confucianism was never aligned with >> the will of God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion >> today to not even allow the scripture to be read at all. >> >> No you can't read the Agamas, because Jainism was never aligned with the >> will of God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion today to >> not even allow the scripture to be read at all. >> >> No you can't read the Orphic Poems, because Orphism was never aligned with >> the will of God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion >> today to not even allow the scripture to be read at all. >> >> No you can't read the Kojiki, because Shintoism was never aligned with the >> will of God. This has nothing to say with the state of the religion today to >> not even allow the scripture to be read at all. > > You are making a logical error. Just because the above religions are not > accepted as Revelations from God does not necessarily mean that they are > contrary to the will of God. They can not be read in Baha'i Temples because > they are not designated as the Word of God in the authenticated texts of the > Central Figures of the Faith. The accepted Scriptures are accepted as > aligned w/ the Will of God because they are named as the Scriptures of a > Manifestation of God. > > >> The above examples are implications due to the limitations of the list. >> >> Don C, you confused which word I was emphasizing in the question. I was >> questioning wether the word religion was used in the sense of all religion >> or in the sense of only an enumerated list of seven or so religions. I >> wasn't asking if the other religions are currently in accord with the will >> of God, or even if they were ever in accord with the will of God for that >> matter, but: > > the issue is whether the Baha'is accept the particular writings as Revelation > from God. > > >> Why do Baha'is act as if the seven enumerated religions were the only seven >> religions that ever existed effectively? > > Because they are the only ones that are named in authoritative texts. > > >> Why do Baha'is even keep list of approved scriptures to be read from in the >> first place? > > Because according to authoritative texts, only writings that represent the > Word of God can be read in the House of Worship. > > >> If unity of religion means that these religions were rather than are aligned >> with the will of God, why would there be a scripture list? > I'm not sure what you mean. > > > >> Is the Baha'i Faith in accord with the will of God? (because there is the >> Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path) >> http://www.maitreya.org/ >> http://www.maitreya.org/english/INDEX.HTM > > The Baha'i Faith is the organization comprised of those people who accept the > Central Figures and the Baha'i administration as it now functions. > > > >> It seems when Baha'is use the word religion, they mean enumerated list of >> religions. When they say scripture, they mean enumerated list of scriptures. > Your statement has implications I deny. > > >> This can confuse people like the Unitarian Universalist minsiter for >> example. The Bahai House of Worship probably assumed based on demographics >> of the religion that he'd either read from the Bible or a Buddhist text, >> since Christianity and Buddhism are the religions that make up most >> Unitarian Universalists. But he read from an unaprroved religious text, it >> doesn't say in the blog what it was exactly, but clues are given of the >> Baha'i position. It's probable that the list of scriptures is limited to the >> Bible, the Quran, Hindu texts, Buddhist texts, Babi/Bayanii texts, and Bahai >> texts. >> >> In the apology letter to the UU minister: “Although it may not be possible >> for us to change the directives which govern our devotional services, be >> assured that we will make certain that neither we nor Bahá’í communities >> planning programs at the House of Worship offend any other religious >> community, even inadvertently.” >> Ommissions from enumerated lists is an implicit inadvertent offense against >> any religious community, their scripture, and their founder. >> >> Don C., have you read the full blog post: >> http://bahaitheway.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html ??? > > In my opinion, the ltr to the UU minister was poorly worded. While I support > what I believe was their intention, I am not going to defend it as written. > If you have an issue w/ it, I recommend you contact the U.S. Baha'i National > Center. > > Don C > > ------------ > He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-702334-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
