"Why? Would it help anyone dance better?" To better understand the world!
Jeff On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 3:45 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Are you actually thinking of doing this? Why? Would it help anyone dance > better? If someone does this kind of thing for work and could tap into > those resources, it might be practical. Otherwise, this looks like the > kind of setup that would require significant thought, effort, and expense. > > One approach would be to green-suit up in a video-game studio, and then > tap into the calculations that the game software uses to create game > motions from human ones. That wouldn't be measurements of forces directly, > but it would be pretty comprehensive. You'd know where all the momentum > went and it would calculate transmitted forces through every surface, which > you could sum for the hand and arm, etc. They might also have force > sensors of some sort. Somebody must have, at some point in the development > of those systems. > > --jh-- > > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 3:17 PM Chris Lahey <cla...@clahey.net> wrote: > >> Does anyone have any thoughts about how we can measure some of this? I >> can definitely imagine a force pad on someone's back to measure the >> tension, but I'm a bit lost as to how he can measure the ground forces >> (including possibly torque around a vertical axis)? >> >> I think normal force should be easy. That can be built into a pad on the >> ground if nothing else, but friction would be harder. >> >> Unless we had multiple pads each of which had force sensors in all 3 axes >> (plus a rotational sensor) does anyone know how much such an apparatus >> would cost to build? >> >> Now that I think about 3 axis force sensors, i wonder if there's much >> lateral or vertical force in the connection point and whether I'd there is >> that feels bad in some natural way. >> >> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 13:37 Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> Funny thing, I wrote the email below last Sunday and thought, do the >>> world's callers really want a physics calculation on their mailing list? I >>> decided the better of it and didn't send it. Ok, I guess I was wrong... >>> >>> What I call support is against centrifugal force, not vertical. Of >>> course, there's no need to lift the other dancer, and it's a really poor >>> idea. >>> >>> As Jeff pointed out, in a fast swing, there's a lot of centrifugal >>> force, as seen from our rotating frame of reference in the swing. For >>> physics buffs, centrifugal force increases as the square of velocity, so a >>> swing that goes around three times in 8 beats rather than twice (1.5x >>> faster rotation, the first-level "fast swing") has 2.25 times as much >>> outward force to support. Estimating a 25 cm radius (about 50 cm between >>> the centers of mass of the two dancers, in the middles of their abdomens, >>> which I measured with a tape measure) and a 70 kg (150 lb) dancer, that's >>> an outward force for each of the two bodies of almost 390 Newtons, or >>> nearly 90 pounds. Much of that will be borne by the friction between the >>> dancer's feet and the floor, but the rest will be held by the supporting >>> dancer(s). How much depends on how they lean. For a standard swing (2 >>> rotations per 8 beats), it's just under 40 lbs. Fortunately, you only have >>> to hold it for four to eight seconds at a time, or actually less as you >>> accelerate and decelerate inside that time, though the peak force will then >>> be higher. >>> >>> ...and now I add... >>> >>> Despite starting with it above, myself, I think we're somewhat >>> misleading ourselves with this Mv**2/r calculation. >>> >>> The key thing here is that a centrifugal-force calculation (centripetal, >>> actually) makes some assumptions that we dramatically violate when we >>> dance. We are not rigid bodies. At best, we're collections of many light >>> rigid bodies (our bones) linked by ligaments, tendons, and muscles, and >>> bearing all sorts of other masses that move relative to one another, >>> storing momentum until we can deal with it in the next step. We >>> effectively pump momentum up from our feet, into our bodies, and down to >>> our feet on each step. We transfer it to the other dancer through our arms >>> and theirs, and their back, if we have a hand there. >>> >>> With that in mind, consider this model of a swing. Each dancer's upper >>> half is trying to execute rigid circular motion. Our lower bodies (hips >>> down) are doing something else, and half our mass is down there. So, drop >>> my estimated 90 lbs to 45 just for that (I'll drop it more in a minute). >>> The lower half is essentially stepping a figure with 90 or 135 degree >>> corners on each beat. Consider the left foot. In a standard swing (2x in >>> 8 beats), it is walking a square, directing momentum along the sides of the >>> square that the upper body picks up and turns into rotation. Half of each >>> square side brings that leg closer to the middle, the other half takes it >>> farther away. We land, push off, and do it again and again. That push-off >>> supports the centripetal needs of both legs (through the hip joint) and >>> some of the upper body. If there is an outward lean off the right foot, >>> additional centripetal support is needed from either the legs or arms. The >>> right foot is mainly a pivot, while both feet support gravitational weight. >>> >>> Good dancers constantly adjust how far out their left feet land on each >>> step and how hard they push off, simultaneously satisfying both their >>> centripetal needs and the required spin rate. This lets them control how >>> much inward force they draw from their feet into the upper-body rotation to >>> supplement the arms. That reduces the support needed from the arms well >>> below 45 lbs. It can reduce it to zero. Tweaking the lean also adjusts >>> where the axis of rotation is, to balance the different masses of the >>> dancers and make their differing force impulses produce matched torque >>> impulses. Dancers use the beat to step in sync with the other dancer's >>> legs, or these torque impulses would come at different times, and the swing >>> would wobble and fall apart, as Chris Lacey alluded to. >>> >>> So, yeah, it's complicated, yet even children solve this problem when >>> they swing. Everyone is an intuitive physicist! And, each time I think >>> about this kind of thing, I get more amazed at the engineers who make >>> robots. Has anyone taught a robot to do a contra swing, yet? >>> >>> --jh-- >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024 at 3:24 PM Julian Blechner < >>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Joe, >>>> >>>> You mean, palms flat on the back of shoulderblades? If so, it's how I >>>> teach it, lots of callers teach it, and this is the first I've heard a >>>> complaint about it. >>>> >>>> That said, you describe: "I've had my elbow bent backward by eager >>>> robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the right place." >>>> >>>> That _sounds like_ what I call "arm clamping". While yes, putting >>>> Robin's hand on the outside of the shoulder also alleviates the clamping, >>>> it's not the only way to fix it. A Robin can lift their elbow. (I just >>>> workshopped the issue with my partner in the living room to test a variety >>>> of height and holds out to confirm what you were saying, as well.) >>>> >>>> The other issue is that if both dancers don't have hands flat on the >>>> backs of each other, it's more difficult to maintain an open frame when >>>> swinging. One usually winds up _closer_ when hands are resting on >>>> shoulders, unless one dancer is significantly stronger and the other is >>>> fairly petite. >>>> >>>> I know that my right arm will get seriously fatigued and sore if I have >>>> an evening too many times as Lark with Robins providing insufficient >>>> support. And I've heard plenty of dancers say similar. >>>> >>>> That said, all bodies are different. If yours works where the swing >>>> hold works better for you the way you describe, that is what it is, yeah? >>>> But I might recommend considering workshopping swings further, because what >>>> you're requesting is counter to prevailing teaching. If I understand >>>> correctly (and it's always possible I'm missing something.) >>>> >>>> In dance, >>>> Julian Blechner >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2024, 1:13 PM Joe Harrington <contradancer...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not the standard ballroom, with the robin's arm on top of the lark's, >>>>> but an alternative that I've seen occasionally, but for a number of years >>>>> now, where the robin tries to put their left hand in the same location on >>>>> the lark's back as the lark has their right hand on the robin's back. I >>>>> know at least one prominent caller who teaches this hold in their newbie >>>>> workshop and tells their dancers that both sides need to do this to >>>>> provide >>>>> equal support in the swing. >>>>> >>>>> While I like the principle, the practice can hurt. If the dancers are >>>>> not grossly mismatched in size/arm length, it won't be possible to do this >>>>> without their elbows occupying the same space. I've had my elbow bent >>>>> backward by eager robins pressing my elbow in to get their elbow in the >>>>> right place. Even if it doesn't go all the way to pain, it pretty much >>>>> eliminates my ability to provide any support, unless I "fight back" by >>>>> pushing my elbow out and resisting the inward pressure, essentially >>>>> refusing the position. I'm also focusing entirely on protecting my elbow, >>>>> so it kills any enjoyment in that swing. >>>>> >>>>> Please gently discourage this hold. If a robin wants to give major >>>>> support in a swing, the symmetric swing holds, the barrel, the one Jeff >>>>> described, or even a mirror of the ballroom where the lark's arm is on top >>>>> are much better opportunities. A robin whose arm is longer than their >>>>> lark's arm can also reach over or around the shoulder in a ballroom hold >>>>> (robin's arm on top) to add support. Just don't push down on the >>>>> shoulder. >>>>> >>>>> --jh-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 9:21 AM Julian Blechner < >>>>> juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> JJ, >>>>>> >>>>>> I like your point about the sort of code-switching that the asymmetry >>>>>> of a ballroom hold provides to reinforce what role one is dancing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't understand what you mean about the ballroom hold having >>>>>> elbows occupy the same space. I think I'd need to see it (in person or >>>>>> picture). That said, it raises the broader issue, which is the overall >>>>>> topic, that everyone has different physical needs and finding happy >>>>>> mediums >>>>>> is our goal for everyone dancing together. Your issue with ballroom hold >>>>>> handholds as such is a good reminder for me that no one - not even >>>>>> seasoned >>>>>> callers - can anticipate every need or difference. >>>>>> >>>>>> In dance, >>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 10:38 PM JJ <jcg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the >>>>>>> switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on >>>>>>> (assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my >>>>>>> left >>>>>>> arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the >>>>>>> "pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell >>>>>>> myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes >>>>>>> over >>>>>>> and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to 😅. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles >>>>>>> without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the >>>>>>> traditional ballroom figure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers < >>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's >>>>>>>> role actually swung like a lady. I'm not sure when that became the >>>>>>>> norm." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember >>>>>>>> initially doing it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the >>>>>>>> gents I >>>>>>>> encountered. I remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 >>>>>>>> when I >>>>>>>> ran into a few guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the >>>>>>>> standard ballroom hold. By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> dancing the lady's role in the standard way? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers < >>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a >>>>>>>>> way that indicated it was too intimate for them. This is especially >>>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>>> if I have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to >>>>>>>>> theirs (I'm pretty tall). It's also difficult to do without frontal >>>>>>>>> contact if one or both partners is well on the heavy side. But, all >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> aside, if you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> stable than ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than >>>>>>>>> one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's >>>>>>>>> role (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a >>>>>>>>> moment), we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral >>>>>>>>> swing", >>>>>>>>> which is symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right >>>>>>>>> arms are >>>>>>>>> around the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's >>>>>>>>> right >>>>>>>>> arm, bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left >>>>>>>>> hands >>>>>>>>> around each other's forearms between your bodies. At the time, it >>>>>>>>> almost >>>>>>>>> never happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a >>>>>>>>> lady. >>>>>>>>> I'm not sure when that became the norm. I would occasionally do it >>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with. We practiced it >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our >>>>>>>>> neighbors. We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors >>>>>>>>> when we >>>>>>>>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I >>>>>>>>> were an >>>>>>>>> item. Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior >>>>>>>>> change... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when >>>>>>>>> they're happy to swing with me. But, it's awkward and uncomfortable >>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't >>>>>>>>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even >>>>>>>>> though >>>>>>>>> it was pretty great in other ways. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom >>>>>>>>> position where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back >>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>> same place where the lark's hand is on theirs. I know some people >>>>>>>>> actually >>>>>>>>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing. It's >>>>>>>>> terrible, >>>>>>>>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same >>>>>>>>> space, which, well, physics. If I'm the lark and their arm is outside >>>>>>>>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right >>>>>>>>> elbow, >>>>>>>>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing >>>>>>>>> pain >>>>>>>>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand >>>>>>>>> from my >>>>>>>>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the >>>>>>>>> traditional ballroom hold. I hope we can convince everyone to stop >>>>>>>>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can >>>>>>>>> hurt >>>>>>>>> the lark. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no >>>>>>>>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the >>>>>>>>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the >>>>>>>>> entire >>>>>>>>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to >>>>>>>>> provide some support on the shoulder blade. In my case, at least, if >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also >>>>>>>>> light >>>>>>>>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make >>>>>>>>> for more >>>>>>>>> connection. It's important not to press down on the shoulder, >>>>>>>>> though. Only >>>>>>>>> pull forward. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --jh-- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra >>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought >>>>>>>>>> about this email thread and observations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Short and simple: >>>>>>>>>> A "barrel hold" swing: >>>>>>>>>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold >>>>>>>>>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, >>>>>>>>>> with his left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. >>>>>>>>>> As we >>>>>>>>>> engaged in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it >>>>>>>>>> guided >>>>>>>>>> things in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced >>>>>>>>>> dancer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>> -Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra >>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above >>>>>>>>>>> the lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively >>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>> that having that rule/understanding might make it easier for >>>>>>>>>>> dancers to >>>>>>>>>>> make the transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the >>>>>>>>>>> robin’s >>>>>>>>>>> arm is always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s >>>>>>>>>>> hand is >>>>>>>>>>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in >>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the >>>>>>>>>>> hand/arm >>>>>>>>>>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive >>>>>>>>>>> to me if >>>>>>>>>>> I were just learning this swing. >>>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra >>>>>>>>>>> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - >>>>>>>>>>> for spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance! >>>>>>>>>>> Though >>>>>>>>>>> what I think Becky found interesting about the variation we're >>>>>>>>>>> working on >>>>>>>>>>> is that it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your >>>>>>>>>>> message: you say when you tried the swing variation our group has >>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>> experimenting with (visual at >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 >>>>>>>>>>> ) >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0> >>>>>>>>>>> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms >>>>>>>>>>> that are holding just above the elbow. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with >>>>>>>>>>> his left hand my right hand , is supposed to be the same as the >>>>>>>>>>> hold you >>>>>>>>>>> use in this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and >>>>>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>>>> right hand.) >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198 >>>>>>>>>>> Starts at 3:18. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston - >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the >>>>>>>>>>> hold, that in this video referenced by Allan - >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 >>>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_&t=198> or in >>>>>>>>>>> the photo I shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will >>>>>>>>>>> *always* go above the Lark's arm? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative >>>>>>>>>>> height of the two dancing partners? >>>>>>>>>>> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the >>>>>>>>>>> Robin's arm still be above the Lark's? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>>>>>> Kat K in Halifax >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kat, >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. >>>>>>>>>>> When you mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a >>>>>>>>>>> Foreshortened Hold in my video and brings you closer together >>>>>>>>>>> rather than >>>>>>>>>>> further apart. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty >>>>>>>>>>> Contras and love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 >>>>>>>>>>> dancers at a >>>>>>>>>>> contra dance at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using >>>>>>>>>>> it! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that >>>>>>>>>>> it really worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> enough connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped >>>>>>>>>>> my arm. >>>>>>>>>>> I felt that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top >>>>>>>>>>> Karen felt >>>>>>>>>>> that it was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - >>>>>>>>>>> it was >>>>>>>>>>> just awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest >>>>>>>>>>> problem is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your >>>>>>>>>>> weight! >>>>>>>>>>> People misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control >>>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>>> weight then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal >>>>>>>>>>> force and >>>>>>>>>>> that it not a lot inless you spin really fast. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on >>>>>>>>>>> the spot BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own >>>>>>>>>>> balance >>>>>>>>>>> and weight. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much >>>>>>>>>>> Repetitive Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught >>>>>>>>>>> badly, >>>>>>>>>>> and then lots of Aerials: >>>>>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT - maybe I >>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't have started doing those in my fifties!). Anyway, I can't >>>>>>>>>>> afford >>>>>>>>>>> to let people damage my shoulders. With a good partner I can Swing >>>>>>>>>>> at high >>>>>>>>>>> speeds with no problem. Whenever someone leans back or sideways I >>>>>>>>>>> just slow >>>>>>>>>>> the Swing down and lessen my connection so that they have to take >>>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>>> weight or fall over. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, if you can get everyone to keep their own weight you >>>>>>>>>>> will find it is much less strain on your arm/hand/wrist. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The standard Quebecois Swing has the feet interleaved. They seem >>>>>>>>>>> to do it without any problem. It is just a different feel and takes >>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>> getting used to. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Someone mentioned the challenges with being too close in a >>>>>>>>>>> Ceilidh Swing ( >>>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Ceilidh ) - you >>>>>>>>>>> could always try the Forearm Swing instead ( >>>>>>>>>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/SwingWorkshop.html#Linked ) - same >>>>>>>>>>> principle, but further apart so no bodily contact. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Happy dancing, >>>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362 >>>>>>>>>>> & 07802 940 574 >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 10:20 PM >>>>>>>>>>> For me, the enforced intimacy is about the proximity of bodies >>>>>>>>>>> and lack of physical air space between them. The huge difference >>>>>>>>>>> between a >>>>>>>>>>> swing in contra vs., say, agreeing to dance a waltz or a swing >>>>>>>>>>> dance with >>>>>>>>>>> someone, is that by agreeing to dance you’re agreeing to swing with >>>>>>>>>>> EVERY >>>>>>>>>>> opposite-role person in the line, not just the person you asked to >>>>>>>>>>> dance. >>>>>>>>>>> That’s a much bigger commitment to physical contact/intimacy than >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> yes to one person. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As a side note, before we got rid of a lecherous dancer in our >>>>>>>>>>> group a few years ago, MANY women in our dance group chose their >>>>>>>>>>> contra >>>>>>>>>>> dance line specifically to avoid having to swing with him. The most >>>>>>>>>>> important intervention was, of course, to establish a code of >>>>>>>>>>> conduct which >>>>>>>>>>> we used to remove him from the dance group (when it became clear he >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> not agree to change his behaviour). But for women (and others, but >>>>>>>>>>> it’s >>>>>>>>>>> always been women who have said this to me over the years), when >>>>>>>>>>> they come >>>>>>>>>>> to a dance not KNOWING whether there MIGHT be a letch in the line, >>>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>>> asking quite a lot to expect them to do a ballroom swing with >>>>>>>>>>> whoever comes >>>>>>>>>>> at them. I am wondering whether the modified ballroom hold might >>>>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>>>> contra feel safer, especially for new dancers. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I’d love to hear what folks who have used both feel about the >>>>>>>>>>> difference. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Becky >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2024, at 4:34 PM, Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>>> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> <juliancallsdan...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner via Contra Callers >>>>>>>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> >>>>>>>>>>> Wednesday, March 13, 2024 5:34 PM >>>>>>>>>>> I would love to read elaboration / articulation on why a >>>>>>>>>>> ballroom hold feels more "intimate" than other holds? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it a matter of the historical social attachment we have in >>>>>>>>>>> our minds with couples dances that use the hold, and romance in our >>>>>>>>>>> culture? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it a physical proximity? (I find ceilidh holds to be closer, >>>>>>>>>>> crossed arms has my hands bearish their belly which has its own >>>>>>>>>>> intimacy to >>>>>>>>>>> me, though sometimes barrel holds can be done with a bit more space >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> though I wouldn't say the default) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Is it something else? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe if we looked at the why, it'd give insight to what a >>>>>>>>>>> solution to an alternate swing hold and/or an adjusted mindset >>>>>>>>>>> might entail? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In dance, >>>>>>>>>>> Julian Blechner >>>>>>>>>>> He/him >>>>>>>>>>> Western Mass >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- >>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>>>>>>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email to >>> contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net >
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