Le lun 17/11/2003 à 19:23, Un expéditeur inconnu a écrit :
> > Seeing others linux partitions is what i can call : advanced stuff -> so
> > this should not be enable by default ( and hard disk will show them ).
>
> So, we should make it easier to use Windows, and less easy to use Linux?
easier to see where are the windows partitions.
A normal users should noyt browse the filesystem, that's why people ask
for multiroot view with the Home directory at first place because a user
should only have to access his files in his Home, and, for people with
multiboot in a desktop usage, easily shares somes files between win and
linux ( divx, mp3, doc, firmware, etc .. )
> > A normal user ( desktop environment ) should not see others linux
> > partitions except his home directory.
>
> So, if they have a backup partition or something (easy enough to do with
> diskdrake), they shouldn't be able to access it as easily as a Windows
> partition?
Not needed as they decide where to put it so they know where to go !
> > So see / and /home on his desktop
> > is useless for him. Most of the times this kind of users put files in
> > their home directory and open/save some files in their windows
> > partitions in order to share them with windows. So they need to know
> > directly and easily where is their home directory ( the home icon ), and
> > where is/are their windows partition(s).
> >
> >
> > Showing FAT32/NTFS drives is what I called basic stuff for newbies. For
> > example, the user need to install the firmware for his modem to make the
> > connection work under linux, so he dl the firmware under windows and
> > then his first question is : Can i have an access to my windows drives ?
> > If yes, where can i access them ?
> > At least 5 times a week on a forum where you have many newbies we have
> > this kind of question. Mandrake control center ? they don't know or
> > don't know where to go ( MountPoint is chinese for them )
>
> But they shouldn't need to even see diskdrake now (I assume that's what
> you mean), they can either look in /mnt/windows, or /mnt/win_{c,d} etc,
> or browse in devices (but it would be better if you didn't have to know
> all 6 buttons in Konqueror to be able to browse devices).
They don't know that their windows partitions are accessible hanks to
/mnt/windows or /mnt/win*
They don't knwo what mount points means !
They used to have a multiroot view ( A: C: D: CDROM ... ) ! They don't
even know that rpmdrake exist ! Howmany times I tell some newbies to use
urpmi/rpmdrake to install packages ! They don't even know how to perform
search to see if they have a package and if the package is installed or
not ! They don't even bother to browse completely the menu !
> >>>This
> >>>way you can easily disable the icons. Gnome have this feature but only
> >>>for removable devices ( CDROM/Floppy )
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>On top of that windows partitions should be writable ( FAT32 only of
> >>>>>course ) by normal users ( so umask=3D0 should be set by default for
> >>>>>security level < high ). So by default diskdrake set umask=3D0 for
> windows
> >>>>>FAT32 partitions during install and when the user select a security
> >>>>>level higher than standard, then msec remove umask=3D0.
> >>
> >>This is already the case AFAIK (last time I looked at the code). What
> >>security level did you install with?
> >
> >
> > since which version ? I don't know for me as I don't install 9.2 on HD
> > where there was some FAT32 partitions, but on forum I have many times
> > users saying that they can't write on their windows partitions ( 9.1,
> > maybe 9.2 but will have to check ) at least if they was able to find
> > where was their windows partitions.
>
> Look in CVS, file libDrakX/fs.pm (line 468 in cooker)
>
> if (isFat($part) || member('vfat', split(':', $part->{type})) ||
> isThisFs('auto', $part)) {
>
> put_in_hash($options, {
> user =3D> 1, noexec =3D> 0,
> }) if $opts{is_removable};
>
> put_in_hash($options, {
> 'umask=3D0' =3D> $opts{security} < 3,
> 'iocharset=3D' =3D> $opts{iocharset}, 'codepage=3D' =3D> $opts{codepage},
> });
> }
>
> So, users who want this by default should install in the less secure
> option. Of course, a better description should be given for umask=3D0 in
> the diskdrake options.
The description seems to be fine. standard stand for which level ? Most
people don't care much and just click next when they reach security
settings. If standard is level 3, we'd better have umask=0' =>
$opts{security} <= 3,
By default most system are installed with level standard
Note : it seems it's level 2
> > I'm talking for home/desktop usage. in multiuser/workstation usage, the
> > sysadmin have the responsibility to enable/disable this feature. Now for
> > desktop/home usage when several people have access to the computer the
> > problem is Linux/unix rights limitations ( need ACL and easy way to
> > managed ACL ) or need away to specify that this group and only this
> > group of users can access theses drives.
>
> The problem is that as soon as the user has a daemon running (ftp,
> apache), they *are* multi-user. Whether it is real users or not is
> irrelevant.
I'm talking about different physical users ! real user for real life or
normal/basic/joe/smith user.
> >>Why do I access NFS/Fish/smb files in Services->LAN Browser, but http in
> >>Network, and FTP in both? Why do I access the CD-ROM in Services->Audio
> >>CD Browser and in "Root Directory" and "Services->Devices"?
> >>
> >>Home
> >
> > Media (devices:/ + audiocd:/ + supermount'ed devices)
> >
> >>This Computer
> >>- -Entire filesystem (/)
> >
> > - -Windows Drives ( FAT32/NTFS drives )
> > - -printers
> >
> >>Network
> >>- -SMB/Windows (smb:/)
> >>- -Unix (fish/nfs hosts from lisa or similar)
> >>- -Web (ftp/http hosts from lisa or similar?)
> >>- -Directory (ldap:/ ;-))
> >
> > - -Bookmarks
> > - -History ( Web history, for local history use panel "recent
> > documents" entry )
> >
> > I'd rather add under Windows drives ( on MAC it could be mac filesystem
> > ). I would have moved Media directly under Home.
>
> I don't agree totally. Home isn't necessarily anywhere near removable
> devices. Remember, we must consider not just single user machines, but
> business network machines (that is really IMHO where Mandrakesoft should
> be aiming, there isn't money in home machines), where it is common to
> have $HOME on the network (but you still want $HOME to be the most
> visible location), which doesn't associate very well with the local
> CD-ROM/Floppy drive.
You're wrong. you have the sysadmin point of view. For user home is ...
Home ! They don't care that home is on their HD, or on the LAN on an
NFS/SMB/CODA/... share, on the server or on the computer of their
colleague.
We need abstraction and the user don't need to knwo what's under the
hood. it's just : ok, this is your home directory, you put everything
there and that's all !
> > This way the user have a distinction :
> > - what i access the most and can go whenever I want -> Home and Media
> > - stuff i rarely need to access directly, should be avoid ( / ) or use
> > with care ( FAT32, printers ).
> > - network stuffs
>
> IMHO, these days (large disks, files too big for floppies etc), Media
> are used about as much as printers. We are no longer buying floppy
> drives, users hardly ever use CDs (mostly Admins use them to install
> licensed software), but network files are used a lot more (though we
> have NFS for that mostly for Linux users ...).
1°/ A user need to have access to the printer icon only for maintenance
! ( oh ! it's not printing. what's the matter ? I'm going to check the
printer jobs ).
Normally a user from the application just hit print, select the printer,
some options ( page format, double sided, margin, tray ... ) and that's
all. They don't need to have access to the printer icon when everything
is going fine ( i.e when the page is printed ).
2°/ Some computers still have floppy drives and windows still provides
easy access to floppy drives. On top of that for user wanting to save
some files it's easier than CDRW ( as a sysadmin i don't want that my
users could burn some CDROM ), and cheaper and more common than Zip !
3°/ On workstation it's true that normally a user don't use CDROM ( I
even remove CDROM from computers and just let floppy drives for network
installation and do everything by network ), but in desktop environment
users use CDROM all the time ... in the windows world.
- Use an encyclopedia -> CDROM for installation and sometimes for
consultation.
- educative CDROM -> CDROM for installation and sometimes for usage
- gaming -> CDROM for instalation and sometimes for gaming
- audio -> CDROM for audio CD or mp3 CD
- Video -> CDROM for divx or DVD ( yes sometimes you'd rather burn CD
and put them in bag bag with the jacket of the film in order to keep all
the divx and freed space from your HD )
So you have many many possibilities when you could end up using your
CDROM in a desktop/normal usage. Linux limited set of available
applications that users can buy at WalMart/FNAC/Virgin/... should not
hide the fact that one time they will have to install things from
foreign sources and that this will be thanks to CDROM
4°/ A good sysadmin provides links on the desktop ( .desktop or symlinks
) to the others NFS share so that the user don't need to browse in order
to find the files. When the user is logged, it should directly see where
are the files and not have to dig through the FHS to find something.
This increase learning curve.
