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FACORAT Fabrice wrote:
> Le lun 17/11/2003 à 19:23, Un expéditeur inconnu a écrit :
>
>
>>>Seeing others linux partitions is what i can call : advanced stuff -> so
>>>this should not be enable by default ( and hard disk will show them ).
>>
>>So, we should make it easier to use Windows, and less easy to use Linux?
>
>
> easier to see where are the windows partitions.
> A normal users should noyt browse the filesystem, that's why people ask
> for multiroot view with the Home directory at first place because a user
> should only have to access his files in his Home, and, for people with
> multiboot in a desktop usage, easily shares somes files between win and
> linux ( divx, mp3, doc, firmware, etc .. )
Again, you're confusing the limitations of KDE's file system abstraction
with the function of $HOME. Windows partitions don't deserve links in
$HOME. They must be easy to find, just as any other filesystem should be
easy to find. This doesn't mean they should be treated specially (IMHO).
I feel that if you do everything to make it easy to keep using Windows,
how can you even suggest to someone to try Linux (since you seem to be
saying that Windows is better, if you need to be able to use it so
much). What about the user who doesn't use Windows???? If we don't think
about this, how can we expect users to migrate totally??? If we don't
expect users to migrate totally, why are we even wasting our time making
things easy for them?
Yes, it must be easy to access the Windows partition, but no easier than
to access the Redhat partition (etc).
>>>A normal user ( desktop environment ) should not see others linux
>>>partitions except his home directory.
>>
>>So, if they have a backup partition or something (easy enough to do with
>>diskdrake), they shouldn't be able to access it as easily as a Windows
>>partition?
>
> Not needed as they decide where to put it so they know where to go !
But the user can just as well decide where they want to mount their
Windows partition (probably more easily).
>>>So see / and /home on his desktop
>>>is useless for him. Most of the times this kind of users put files in
>>>their home directory and open/save some files in their windows
>>>partitions in order to share them with windows. So they need to know
>>>directly and easily where is their home directory ( the home icon ), and
>>>where is/are their windows partition(s).
>>>
>>>
>>>Showing FAT32/NTFS drives is what I called basic stuff for newbies. For
>>>example, the user need to install the firmware for his modem to make the
>>>connection work under linux, so he dl the firmware under windows and
>>>then his first question is : Can i have an access to my windows drives ?
>>>If yes, where can i access them ?
>>>At least 5 times a week on a forum where you have many newbies we have
>>>this kind of question. Mandrake control center ? they don't know or
>>>don't know where to go ( MountPoint is chinese for them )
>>
>>But they shouldn't need to even see diskdrake now (I assume that's what
>>you mean), they can either look in /mnt/windows, or /mnt/win_{c,d} etc,
>>or browse in devices (but it would be better if you didn't have to know
>>all 6 buttons in Konqueror to be able to browse devices).
>
>
> They don't know that their windows partitions are accessible hanks to
> /mnt/windows or /mnt/win*
> They don't knwo what mount points means !
Who needs to know what mount point is to look in /mnt ??
> They used to have a multiroot view ( A: C: D: CDROM ... ) ! They don't
> even know that rpmdrake exist ! Howmany times I tell some newbies to use
> urpmi/rpmdrake to install packages ! They don't even know how to perform
> search to see if they have a package and if the package is installed or
> not ! They don't even bother to browse completely the menu !
Well, if users can't browse the menus, how do they ever find paint.exe
in Windows? It's 3 levels deep!!! I guess no-one ever uses paint.exe (or
Solitaire), simply because they can't find it.
Do the users ever uninstall software in Windows? Who told them where the
control panel is????
Sorry, but we're not here to make Mandrake exactly like Windows (that's
what Lindows does, except not quite as secure or easy to use etc etc).
>>>>>This
>>>>>way you can easily disable the icons. Gnome have this feature but only
>>>>>for removable devices ( CDROM/Floppy )
>>>>>
>>>>>>>On top of that windows partitions should be writable ( FAT32 only of
>>>>>>>course ) by normal users ( so umask=3D0 should be set by default for
>>>>>>>security level < high ). So by default diskdrake set umask=3D0 for
>>
>>windows
>>
>>>>>>>FAT32 partitions during install and when the user select a security
>>>>>>>level higher than standard, then msec remove umask=3D0.
>>>>
>>>>This is already the case AFAIK (last time I looked at the code). What
>>>>security level did you install with?
>>>
>>>
>>>since which version ? I don't know for me as I don't install 9.2 on HD
>>>where there was some FAT32 partitions, but on forum I have many times
>>>users saying that they can't write on their windows partitions ( 9.1,
>>>maybe 9.2 but will have to check ) at least if they was able to find
>>>where was their windows partitions.
>>
>>Look in CVS, file libDrakX/fs.pm (line 468 in cooker)
>>
>> if (isFat($part) || member('vfat', split(':', $part->{type})) ||
>>isThisFs('auto', $part)) {
>>
>> put_in_hash($options, {
>> user =3D> 1, noexec =3D> 0,
>> }) if $opts{is_removable};
>>
>> put_in_hash($options, {
>> 'umask=3D0' =3D> $opts{security} < 3,
>>'iocharset=3D' =3D> $opts{iocharset}, 'codepage=3D' =3D> $opts{codepage},
>> });
>> }
>>
>>So, users who want this by default should install in the less secure
>>option. Of course, a better description should be given for umask=3D0 in
>>the diskdrake options.
>
> The description seems to be fine. standard stand for which level ? Most
> people don't care much and just click next when they reach security
> settings. If standard is level 3, we'd better have umask=0' =>
> $opts{security} <= 3,
> By default most system are installed with level standard
> Note : it seems it's level 2
This is a difficult one (see below).
>>>I'm talking for home/desktop usage. in multiuser/workstation usage, the
>>>sysadmin have the responsibility to enable/disable this feature. Now for
>>>desktop/home usage when several people have access to the computer the
>>>problem is Linux/unix rights limitations ( need ACL and easy way to
>>>managed ACL ) or need away to specify that this group and only this
>>>group of users can access theses drives.
>>
>>The problem is that as soon as the user has a daemon running (ftp,
>>apache), they *are* multi-user. Whether it is real users or not is
>>irrelevant.
>
> I'm talking about different physical users !
No, for security purposes it doesn't matter. Is a user going to be any
less upset if another user deleted his thesis, or if a vulnerability in
some daemon the user enabled by mistake had a remote non-root
vulnerability, and deleted his thesis? I don't think so.
> real user for real life or
> normal/basic/joe/smith user.
Who thinks he wants some cool server software, but doesn't know how to
configure it or how critical it is to do updates?
>>>>Why do I access NFS/Fish/smb files in Services->LAN Browser, but http in
>>>>Network, and FTP in both? Why do I access the CD-ROM in Services->Audio
>>>>CD Browser and in "Root Directory" and "Services->Devices"?
>>>>
>>>>Home
>>>
>>> Media (devices:/ + audiocd:/ + supermount'ed devices)
>>>
>>>
>>>>This Computer
>>>>- -Entire filesystem (/)
>>>
>>> - -Windows Drives ( FAT32/NTFS drives )
>>> - -printers
>>>
>>>
>>>>Network
>>>>- -SMB/Windows (smb:/)
>>>>- -Unix (fish/nfs hosts from lisa or similar)
>>>>- -Web (ftp/http hosts from lisa or similar?)
>>>>- -Directory (ldap:/ ;-))
>>>
>>> - -Bookmarks
>>> - -History ( Web history, for local history use panel "recent
>>>documents" entry )
>>>
>>>I'd rather add under Windows drives ( on MAC it could be mac filesystem
>>>). I would have moved Media directly under Home.
>>
>>I don't agree totally. Home isn't necessarily anywhere near removable
>>devices. Remember, we must consider not just single user machines, but
>>business network machines (that is really IMHO where Mandrakesoft should
>>be aiming, there isn't money in home machines), where it is common to
>>have $HOME on the network (but you still want $HOME to be the most
>>visible location), which doesn't associate very well with the local
>>CD-ROM/Floppy drive.
>
>
> You're wrong. you have the sysadmin point of view. For user home is ...
> Home !
You didn't say home user, you said "desktop". That's not very precise ...
> They don't care that home is on their HD, or on the LAN on an
> NFS/SMB/CODA/... share, on the server or on the computer of their
> colleague.
Exactly, but I am quite sure they know which machine the CD-ROM drive is
on. You can't group two file locations that may have different physical
locations (IMHO).
> We need abstraction and the user don't need to knwo what's under the
> hood. it's just : ok, this is your home directory, you put everything
> there and that's all !
Does the CD-ROM drive appear in My Documents or the profile in Windows
(the equivalents of $HOME)?
No.
>>>This way the user have a distinction :
>>>- what i access the most and can go whenever I want -> Home and Media
>>>- stuff i rarely need to access directly, should be avoid ( / ) or use
>>>with care ( FAT32, printers ).
>>>- network stuffs
>>
>>IMHO, these days (large disks, files too big for floppies etc), Media
>>are used about as much as printers. We are no longer buying floppy
>>drives, users hardly ever use CDs (mostly Admins use them to install
>>licensed software), but network files are used a lot more (though we
>>have NFS for that mostly for Linux users ...).
>
>
> 1°/ A user need to have access to the printer icon only for maintenance
> ! ( oh ! it's not printing. what's the matter ? I'm going to check the
> printer jobs ).
Or "is my long print job finished? Is there any chance of my print job
being finished in 5 minutees if I print now (maybe the printer has 200
jobs waiting).
> Normally a user from the application just hit print, select the printer,
> some options ( page format, double sided, margin, tray ... ) and that's
> all. They don't need to have access to the printer icon when everything
> is going fine ( i.e when the page is printed ).
>
> 2°/ Some computers still have floppy drives and windows still provides
> easy access to floppy drives.
I don't say it should be difficult to access floppy drives, but they
should *not* be grouped with files that in many cases are nowhere near
the mahine.
> On top of that for user wanting to save
> some files it's easier than CDRW ( as a sysadmin i don't want that my
> users could burn some CDROM ), and cheaper and more common than Zip !
USB flash disks are cheaper (1 floppy drive + 40 floppies is about the
price of a 64MB flash disk).
>
> 3°/ On workstation it's true that normally a user don't use CDROM ( I
> even remove CDROM from computers and just let floppy drives for network
> installation and do everything by network ), but in desktop environment
> users use CDROM all the time ... in the windows world.
Please be more specific. "desktop" refers to anything besides servers,
so in our network we have 60 "desktops" (you seem to refer to them as
"workstations", but "workstation" usually has different connotations.
On our 60 desktops, CD-ROMs are almost never used.
> - Use an encyclopedia -> CDROM for installation and sometimes for
> consultation.
> - educative CDROM -> CDROM for installation and sometimes for usage
> - gaming -> CDROM for instalation and sometimes for gaming
> - audio -> CDROM for audio CD or mp3 CD
> - Video -> CDROM for divx or DVD ( yes sometimes you'd rather burn CD
> and put them in bag bag with the jacket of the film in order to keep all
> the divx and freed space from your HD )
Most of these are "home" uses, not necessarily applicable to all
"desktop" uses.
> So you have many many possibilities when you could end up using your
> CDROM in a desktop/normal usage.
Sure. But it still doesn't belong in $HOME.
Think about a network setup, with NFS homes and remote X.
If I have an app running on a remote machine, displaying on my local
machine, where would $HOME/cdrom point to? This could be very confusing,
as the same "location" in two different windows is different, with no
easy distinction that the location is machine-specific.
> Linux limited set of available
> applications that users can buy at WalMart/FNAC/Virgin/... should not
> hide the fact that one time they will have to install things from
> foreign sources and that this will be thanks to CDROM
>
> 4°/ A good sysadmin provides links on the desktop ( .desktop or symlinks
> ) to the others NFS share so that the user don't need to browse in order
> to find the files. When the user is logged, it should directly see where
> are the files and not have to dig through the FHS to find something.
> This increase learning curve.
>
I don't think this is ideal (IMHO). Many user work with full-screen
windows, and hardly ever see the desktop. So, for Windows we just map
drives. But, how is the user supposed to know which drive is which (even
with the maximum comment we can fit in)? Under Linux, we just tell them
to look in /home (and from there it's much easier than in Windows.
But, before you start advocating desktop links everywhere, maybe we need
some solution to adding links to user's desktops that will actually work
well (ie like Default User profile in Windows).
Regards,
Buchan
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|--------------Another happy Mandrake Club member--------------|
Buchan Milne Mechanical Engineer, Network Manager
Cellphone * Work +27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202
Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za
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