Even for the mailing list, I'd love to have a short set of instructions on how to submit your questions (maybe on http://spark.apache.org/community.html or maybe in the welcome email when you subscribe). It would be great if someone added that. After all, we have such instructions for contributing PRs, for example.
Matei > On Nov 6, 2016, at 11:09 PM, assaf.mendelson <assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> wrote: > > There are other options as well. For example hosting an answerhub > (www.answerhub.com <http://www.answerhub.com/>) or other similar separate Q&A > service. > > BTW, I believe the main issue is not how opinionated people are but who is > answering questions. > > Today there are already people asking (and getting answers) on SO (including > myself). The problem is that many people do not go to SO. > > The problem I see is how to “bump” up questions which are not being answered > to someone more likely to be able to answer them. Simple questions can be > answered by many people, many of them even newbies who ran into the issue > themselves. > > The main issue is that the more complex the question, the less people there > are who can answer it and those people’s bandwidth is already clogged by > other questions. > > We could for example try to create tags on SO for “basic questions”, > “medium”, “advanced”. Provide guidelines to ask first on basic, if not > answered after X days then add the medium tag etc. Downvote people who don’t > go by the process. This would mean that committers for example can look at > advanced only tag and have a manageable number of questions they can help > with while others can answer medium and basic. > > > > I agree that some things are not good for SO. Basically stuff which asks for > opinion is such but most cases in the mailing list are either “how do I solve > this bug” or “how do I do X”. Either of those two are good for SO. > > > > > > Assaf. > > > > > > > > From: rxin [via Apache Spark Developers List] [mailto:ml-node+[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19758&i=0>] > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2016 8:33 AM > To: Mendelson, Assaf > Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists > > > > This is an excellent point. If we do go ahead and feature SO as a way for > users to ask questions more prominently, as someone who knows SO very well, > would you be willing to help write a short guideline (ideally the shorter the > better, which makes it hard) to direct what goes to user@ and what goes to SO? > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Maciej Szymkiewicz <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=0>> wrote: > > Damn, I always thought that mailing list is only for nice and welcoming > people and there is nothing to do for me here >:) > > To be serious though, there are many questions on the users list which would > fit just fine on SO but it is not true in general. There are dozens of > questions which are to broad, opinion based, ask for external resources and > so on. If you want to direct users to SO you have to help them to decide if > it is the right channel. Otherwise it will just create a really bad > experience for both seeking help and active answerers. Former ones will be > downvoted and bashed, latter ones will have to deal with handling all the > junk and the number of active Spark users with moderation privileges is > really low (with only Massg and me being able to directly close duplicates). > > Believe me, I've seen this before. > > On 11/07/2016 05:08 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: > > You have substantially underestimated how opinionated people can be on > mailing lists too :) > > On Sunday, November 6, 2016, Maciej Szymkiewicz <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=1>> wrote: > > You have to remember that Stack Overflow crowd (like me) is highly > opinionated, so many questions, which could be just fine on the mailing list, > will be quickly downvoted and / or closed as off-topic. Just saying... > > -- > Best, > Maciej > > > On 11/07/2016 04:03 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: > > OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there is no > public archive). > > > > It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a place for > users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should delete the existing > user@spark list either, but we can certainly make SO more visible than it is. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=2>> wrote: > > Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the only policy is > that development decisions have to be made and announced on ASF properties > (dev list or jira), but user questions don't have to. > > > > I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would actually recommend us > moving entirely over the Q&A part of the user list to stackoverflow, or at > least make that the recommended way rather than the existing user list which > is not very scalable. > > > > On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=3>> wrote: > > We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication tools, as far back > as 2014 and maybe even before that too. The bottom line is that we can’t due > to ASF rules requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists. > > For some history, see this discussion: > > · > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@...%3E > > <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E> > · > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@...%3E > > <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E> > (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past discussion on why we > can’t change our official communication tools due to those very tools…) > > Nick > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=4>> wrote: > > I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to move this project forward > from the Spark user perspective (as I do). In fact, we're still using 20th > century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons (like Stack Overflow). > > > > As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to the point. > > I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to enforce) and tools (much > easier). Isn't it? > > > > On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=5>> wrote: > > So concrete things people could do > > - users could tag subject lines appropriately to the component they're > asking about > > - contributors could monitor user@ for tags relating to components > they've worked on. > I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing list questions > well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5% > > - committers could be more aggressive about soliciting and merging PRs > to improve documentation. > It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked questions with a link to > relevant docs. > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen <[hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=6>> wrote: > > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is for project development itself > > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting up user@ and I sympathize > > with the motivation. Experience tells me that we'll have a beginner@ that's > > then totally ignored, and people will quickly learn to post to advanced@ to > > get attention, and we'll be back where we started. Putting it in JIRA > > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that is merely down to lack of > > process. It actually requires cultivating a culture change on the community > > list. > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, Assaf <[hidden email] > > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=7>> > > wrote: > >> > >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that. > >> > >> For example, we might say that mailing list A is only for voting, mailing > >> list B is only for PR and have something like stack overflow for developer > >> questions (I would even go as far as to have beginner, intermediate and > >> advanced mailing list for users and beginner/advanced for dev). > >> > >> > >> > >> This can easily be done using stack overflow tags, however, that would > >> probably be harder to manage. > >> > >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in jira? > >> > >> > >> > >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user questions (except maybe > >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It is so easy to get lost in the > >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people to learn spark internals… > >> > >> Assaf. > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:[hidden email] > >> <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=8>] > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM > >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; [hidden email] > >> <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=9> > >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists > >> > >> > >> > >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't scale well. This one has > >> thousands of subscribers with different interests and levels of experience. > >> For any given person, most messages will be irrelevant. I also find that a > >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, aren't an SSCCE > >> (http://sscce.org/ <http://sscce.org/>), not something most people are > >> going to bother replying > >> to even if they could answer. I almost entirely ignore user@ because there > >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal with, that already have > >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why little of it gets an answer -- > >> too > >> noisy. > >> > >> > >> > >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any event, to have some > >> official channel for things like votes and announcements. It's not wrong to > >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of the questions I see could > >> have been answered with research of existing docs or looking at the code. I > >> think that given the scale of the list, it's not wrong to assert that this > >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands of people to answer one's > >> question. But we can't enforce that. > >> > >> > >> > >> The situation will get better to the extent people ask better questions, > >> help other people ask better questions, and answer good questions. I'd > >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to help along those dimensions. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM assaf.mendelson <[hidden email] > >> <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=10>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted to raise an issue about > >> handling questions in the mailing list (this is true both for the user > >> mailing list and the dev but since there are other options such as stack > >> overflow for user questions, this is more problematic in dev). > >> > >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently did). Unfortunately this was > >> during spark summit in Europe so probably people were busy. In any case no > >> one answered. > >> > >> The problem is, that if no one answers very soon, the question will almost > >> certainly remain unanswered because new messages will simply drown it. > >> > >> > >> > >> This is a common issue not just for questions but for any comment or idea > >> which is not immediately picked up. > >> > >> > >> > >> I believe we should have a method of handling this. > >> > >> Generally, I would say these types of things belong in stack overflow, > >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for this. More seasoned spark > >> contributors and committers can periodically check out unanswered questions > >> and answer them. > >> > >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as other targets such as the > >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user based orientation. This means > >> that any spark internal question will almost certainly remain unanswered. > >> > >> > >> > >> I was wondering if we could come up with a solution for this. > >> > >> > >> > >> Assaf. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> View this message in context: Handling questions in the mailing lists > >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive at > >> Nabble.com. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe e-mail: [hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19757&i=11>rg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > > http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Handling-questions-in-the-mailing-lists-tp19690p19757.html > > <http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Handling-questions-in-the-mailing-lists-tp19690p19757.html> > To start a new topic under Apache Spark Developers List, email [hidden email] > <x-msg://40/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=19758&i=1> > To unsubscribe from Apache Spark Developers List, click here > <applewebdata://565D0BC6-3106-4B28-AA01-03AA37A9758E>. > NAML > <http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instant_html%21nabble%3Aemail.naml&base=nabble.naml.namespaces.BasicNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NabbleNamespace-nabble.view.web.template.NodeNamespace&breadcrumbs=notify_subscribers%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-instant_emails%21nabble%3Aemail.naml-send_instant_email%21nabble%3Aemail.naml> > View this message in context: RE: Handling questions in the mailing lists > <http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Handling-questions-in-the-mailing-lists-tp19690p19758.html> > Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive > <http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/> at Nabble.com.
