Self-regulating means that we police ourselves and obey the rules on the
honor system. It also might mean the Official Observers assist in
regulations. "Regulating" means following rules, not interpreting them
for our own benefit, but as accurately as possible.
If you were the FCC and had received a seven page document describing
ROS as FHSS, and then later received a two page "technical description"
that was COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, but that ROS had not changed, would you
believe the first document or the second, knowing that the mode may
really be FHSS butis now called something else in order to achieve
legal status?
Under these circumstances, I DO think they will put enough effort into
this to find the TRUTH. It is clear that they can no longer just believe
the author, since his story has done a 180 degree shift, so I would
think they feel they are now obligated to make tests to determine if the
mode really is FHSS or FSK144, or something else, since they no longer
can trust what the author says. The change is so enormous that it is not
just a matter of having left something out the first time.
My guess is the FCC will, but from the spectral analysis Steiner has
made, there is probably no problem. It is just that the author, who
claims he is the dependable source, simply cannot be trusted 100% to
tell the truth, and has already reversed himself once.
Tough situation. :-(
73 - Skip KH6TY
W2XJ wrote:
Skip
Do you really think the FCC will put that much effort into this? They
really want amateur radio to be self regulating. I think that people
who bother the comish with such trivia degrades the hobby. When the
administration of our activities become too burdensome, the FCC will
be less inclined to support it. I can not see them using valuable
engineering time on this.
What the FCC stated was that based on the documentation, the developer
claimed it was SS but it was up to the individual amateur to make the
determination. They made no ruling or determination, just a carefully
worded opinion of a staff member. Part of holding a license is being
able to determine which operation is legal. The same thing came up
over digital repeaters a few years ago. An FCC staff member told an
interested group at Dayton that if they were qualified to hold their
license, they should have the ability to read and interpret the rules
and figure it out for themselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From: *KH6TY <kh...@comcast.net <kh...@comcast.net>>
*Reply-To: *<digitalradio@yahoogroups.com <digitalradio@yahoogroups.com>>
*Date: *Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:58:58 -0500
*To: *<digitalradio@yahoogroups.com <digitalradio@yahoogroups.com>>
*Subject: *Re: [digitalradio] Re: There is a pattern in the ROS signal
when idling
Thanks for the clarification, Rein.
That agrees with what Steinar sees, and with the Wikipedia discussion,
which says in part, "Most pseudorandom generator algorithms produce
sequences which are uniformly distributed
</wiki/Uniform_distribution_%28discrete%29> by any of several tests.
It is an open question, and one central to the theory and practice of
cryptography </wiki/Cryptography> , whether there is any way to
distinguish the output of a high-quality PRNG from a truly random
sequence without knowing the algorithm(s) used and the state with
which it was initialized."
The differentiating factor in FHSS is apparently whether or not the
data is superimposed on the carriers, or if the carrier frequencies
are determined by the data. I cannot see that happing in ROS, and I
can in all the FSK modes, but maybe I just do not know how to find it
for sure. I guess the FCC engineers will probably figure out if ROS is
actually spread spectrum as originally claimed, or FSK with FEC as now
claimed.
It is just hard to imagine that someone as intelligent and capable as
Jose could make such a huge mistake after writing seven pages of text
and diagrams describing the mode the first time! No wonder the FCC
believed him! Will they now believe him, or will they believe that the
so-called "technical description" now on the ROS website is just an
attempt to get ROS considered legal on HF? Probably they will believe
only their own tests now, so we will have to wait for those.
The FCC does not care about the "mode", or what it is called, but only
what is transmitted on the air.
73 - Skip KH6TY
pa0r wrote:
SS uses pseudorandom codes to wag the carrier(s).
EVERY pseudorandom code is repetitive, the length may vary.
73,
Rein PA0R
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com <digitalradio@yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com>> , KH6TY <kh...@...>
<mailto:kh...@... <mailto:kh...@...>> wrote:
>
> That's a good analysis, Steinar. Is it possible to see if the
pattern
> changes when sending data? That is all the FCC is concerned
about. The
> pattern has to change when sending data and not just remain the
same to
> exclude it from being FHSS.
>
> 73 - Skip KH6TY
>
>
>
>
> Steinar Aanesland wrote:
> >
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Steinar Aanesland included below]
> >
> > Hi Skip
> >
> > I have been monitoring a ROS idling over time using DL4YHF's
Spectrum
> > Lab. Here is the results.You can clearly see a pattern
> >
> > 73 de LA5VNA Steinar
> >
> > On 26.02.2010 12:29, KH6TY wrote:
> > > Alan,
> > >
> > > Of course, the FCC rules on SS are outdated and ROS should be
allowed
> > > due to its narrow spreading range, but the road to success is
not to
> > > just rename a spread spectrum modem to something else and try
to fool
> > > the FCC. This is a sure way to lose the battle. The genie is
already
> > > out of the bottle!
> > >
> > > Instead, just petition the FCC for a waiver, or amendment, to the
> > > regulations that are a problem, to allow FHSS as long as the
spreading
> > > does not exceed 3000 Hz and the signal is capable of being
monitored
> > > by third parties. Do this, and there is not a problem
anymore. But, do
> > > not try to disguise the fact that FHSS is being used by
calling it
> > > something else, as that undermines the credibilty of the
author of the
> > > mode and will make the FCC even more determined not to it on
HF/VHF.
> > >
> > > It looks to me that the tone frequencies are clearly being
generated
> > > independently from the data and then the data applied to the
randomly
> > > generated frequency. There is NO pattern to ROS like there is
to FSK
> > > modes, even to 32 tone FSK (Olivia 32-1000) or to 64 tone FSK
> > > (MT63-2000). This is a signature of FHSS.
> > >
> > > “/If/ it walks /like a duck/, quacks /like a duck/, /looks
like a
> > > duck/, it must be a /duck/‡.
> > >
> > > It looks like ROS really is FHSS when you look at it on a
spectrum
> > > analyzer, and the spectrum analyzer does not lie.
> > >
> > > 73 - Skip KH6TY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
