Archbishop's talk and the Message of the Universal House of Justice
Dear friends on these luminous lists I would beg you to have a look at this talk of the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams in Washington last week http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/040329.html http://www.edow.org/news/window/special/williams/lecture.html?menu=undefined It starts like this ***In the year 156 of the Christian era, Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, was arrested and brought before the magistrate, charged with being a Christian. He was in his eighties, and his age and frailty prompted the magistrate to offer him a quick discharge if he would acknowledge the divine spirit of the emperor and say Away with the atheists. The latter, at least, you might think would not be difficult for a bishop; but of course at this period an atheist was someone who refused to take part in the civic cult of the empire, to perform public religious duties and take part in the festivals of the Roman city. Christians were atheists, by this definition; Polycarp had a problem after all. His response, though, was an elegant turning of the tables. He looked around slowly at the screaming mob in the amphitheatre who had gathered for the gladiatorial fights and public executions, and, says our eyewitness chronicler, he groaned and said, Away with the atheists. The magistrate did not fail to grasp the theological point, and Polycarp was duly condemned to be burned alive. But this poignant story is one well worth pondering for reasons beyond the study of early Christianity. It is a reminder that atheism may be a less simple idea than either its defenders or its attackers assume. People often talk as though atheism were a self-contained system, a view of the world which gained its coherence from a central conviction that there is no transcendent creative power independent of the universe we experience. But the story of Polycarp reminds us that to understand what atheism means, we need to know which gods are being rejected and why. Thus an early Christian was an atheist because he or she refused to be part of a complex system in which political and religious loyalties were inseparably bound up. Atheism was a decision to place certain loyalties above those owed to the sacralised power of the state. But, moving across the world of faiths, Buddhists are sometimes described as atheists by puzzled observers, aware of the fact that Buddhist philosophy has no place for a divine agent and that Buddhist practice concentrates exclusively upon the mind purifying itself from self-absorption and craving; here, atheism is a strategy to discipline the minds temptation to distraction by speculative thought. Whether or not there is a transcendent creator is irrelevant to the minds work; preoccupation with this is a self-indulgent diversion at best, and at worst a search for some agency that can do the work only we can do. ... If you meet the Buddha, kill him is a well-known Zen dictum, from a tradition deeply aware that personal agenda and history are easily capable of distorting any supposedly clear vision of where enlightenment is to be found. Any conceptual form that can be given in the abstract to the Buddha (i.e. to the enlightened awareness)will take its shape from the unenlightened awareness, and so has to be dissolved. But this is not that different from the conviction of much Hindu thought, that the divine is not this, not that, never identifiable with a determinate object, or from the principle, deeply rooted in the Abrahamic faiths, that God cannot be given an essential definition, classified as a kind of object. This may be expressed in the form of the apophatic theology of an Ibn Sina or Maimonides or Nicholas of Cusa: Ibn Sina (like Aquinas and all that flows from him) insists that there can be no answer to the question, What makes God divine? as if some quiddity could be identified that grounded a divine definition. God is God by being God by being the necessary, uncaused active reality he is; nothing else. But the same point is made in wholly different idioms by twentieth century writers such as Karl Barth and Simone Weil. For Barth, all systems for which God is an object are unsustainable: he always speaks before we have words to answer, acts before we can locate him on some intellectual map. He is never available, though always present. And Simone Weil, in an argument of some complexity, concludes that when the human ego says God, it cannot be referring to any reality to which the name might be truthfully applied. Because the I that says God is always self-directed and so wedded to untruth, God cannot properly be spoken of. Any God my selfish mind can conceive is bound to be a false, non-existent God. The true God is known only in ways that cannot be reduced to theory or third-person language. If you meet God (in the language of systematic theology or metaphysics), kill him. ...*** [limited quotation because of copyright] but it is most interesting and to my humble mind it has many many
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Sandra, David was asking for references by Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha. What you've posted is by Nabil (translated by Shoghi Effendi). This listing is merely a suggestion by Nabil and no more. Others have suggested other individuals as Letters. Regards, ahang. Please respond to Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Letters of the Living David writes: Just wondering if we have any references from people like 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi referring to specific people as Letters of the Living. Happy to be of assistance... Lovingly, Sandra As to those whose supreme privilege it was to be enrolled by the Báb in the Book of His Revelation as His chosen Letters of the Living, their names are as follows: Mulla Husayn-i-Bushru'i, Muhammad-Hasan, his brother, Muhammad-Baqir, his nephew, Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami, Mulla Khuda-Bakhsh-i-Quchani, later named Mulla Ali Mulla Hasan-i-Bajistani, Siyyid Husayn-i-Yazdi, Mirza Muhammad Rawdih-Khan-i-Yazdi, Sa'id-i-Hindi, Mulla Mahmud-i-Khu'i, Mulla Jalil-i-Urumi, Mulla Ahmad-i-Ibdal-i-Maraghi'i, Mulla Baqir-i-Tabrizi, Mulla Yusif-i-Ardibili, Mirza Hadi, son of Mulla Abdu'l-Vahhab-i-Qazvini, 81 Mirza Muhammad-'Aliy-i-Qazvini.[1] Tahirih,[2] Quddus. These all, with the single exception of Tahirih, attained the presence of the Báb, and were personally invested by Him with the distinction of this rank. (Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 80-81) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Ahang (and David)...
Thank you for the clarification Ahang! Particularly, because
in God Passes By - not a translation... ;- ) - the Guardian
mentions several individuals who, in context, could to be
understood as among the Letters of the Living - on pages
10-24.
I can't help wondering; being generally confused by
Persian/Arabic names and titles, if some of these individuals
are in fact one person with different names.
On each of the twenty-two days of His sojourn in that hamlet
He revealed a Tablet, which was chanted in the presence of the
assembled believers. On every believer He conferred a new
name, without, however, disclosing the identity of the one who
had bestowed it. He Himself was henceforth designated by the
name Baha. Upon the Last Letter of the Living was conferred
the appellation of Quddus, while Qurratu'l-'Ayn was given the
title of Tahirih. By these names they were all subsequently
addressed by the Báb in the Tablets He revealed for each one
of them. (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 32)
Ahang, can you offer an opinion on how identification of the
Eighteen might be resolved eventually? {...thinking of the
Twenty-four Elders)
Lovingly, Sandra
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Re: Letters of the Living
Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by Nabil? - Original Message - From: Ahang Rabbani To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Letters of the Living Dear Sandra, David was asking for references by Shoghi Effendi or Abdu'l-Baha. What you've posted is by Nabil (translated by Shoghi Effendi). This listing is merely a suggestion by Nabil and no more. Others have suggested other individuals as Letters. Regards, ahang. Please respond to "Baha'i Studies" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Baha'i Studies" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:Re: Letters of the Living David writes: Just wondering if we have any referencesfrom people like 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi referring tospecific people as Letters of the Living. Happy to be of assistance...Lovingly, Sandra"As to those whose supreme privilege it was to be enrolled bythe Báb in the Book of His Revelation as His chosen Letters ofthe Living, their names are as follows:Mulla Husayn-i-Bushru'i,Muhammad-Hasan, his brother,Muhammad-Baqir, his nephew,Mulla Aliy-i-Bastami,Mulla Khuda-Bakhsh-i-Quchani, later named Mulla AliMulla Hasan-i-Bajistani,Siyyid Husayn-i-Yazdi,Mirza Muhammad Rawdih-Khan-i-Yazdi,Sa'id-i-Hindi,Mulla Mahmud-i-Khu'i,Mulla Jalil-i-Urumi,Mulla Ahmad-i-Ibdal-i-Maraghi'i,Mulla Baqir-i-Tabrizi,Mulla Yusif-i-Ardibili,Mirza Hadi, son of Mulla Abdu'l-Vahhab-i-Qazvini, 81Mirza Muhammad-'Aliy-i-Qazvini.[1]Tahirih,[2]Quddus.These all, with the single exception of Tahirih, attained thepresence of the Báb, and were personally invested by Him withthe distinction of this rank."(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 80-81)__You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Baha'i Studies is available through the following:Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-stNews - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-stPublic - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaistOld Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKoreanwww.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
This whole issue reminds me of the twelve apostles of Jesus. Lists vary. _ Need more speed? Get Xtra JetStream @ http://xtra.co.nz/jetstream __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
No further new public revelations.
"and we now await no further newpublic revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (cf. 1 Tim 6:14 and Tit 2:13).10 True! He does state that there will be no further new public revelations, etc. Yet, he qualifies the statement and speaks of "manifestation". There is yet hope. Consider the gleaming white teeth of thedead dogthat lay in the road. Richard. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Archbishop's talk and the Message of the Universal House of Justice
Hi, Khazeh, At 09:43 AM 4/3/2004, you quoted: Thus an early Christian was an atheist because he or she refused to be part of a complex system in which political and religious loyalties were inseparably bound up. Atheism was a decision to place certain loyalties above those owed to the sacralised power of the state. This argument is similar to the position taken by early twentieth-century sociologist, Emile Durkheim. According to Durkheim, the object of religious worship is society itself. In effect, tributes paid to God, Zeus, or Gerald Gardner's Wiccan binity of the Green Man and Diana are apostrophes to society. Therefore, to Durkheim, all religion becomes civil religion. But, moving across the world of faiths, Buddhists are sometimes described as atheists by puzzled observers, aware of the fact that Buddhist philosophy has no place for a divine agent and that Buddhist practice concentrates exclusively upon the mind purifying itself from self-absorption and craving; here, atheism' is a strategy to discipline the minds temptation to distraction by speculative thought. Whether or not there is a transcendent creator is irrelevant to the minds work; preoccupation with this is a self-indulgent diversion at best, and at worst a search for some agency that can do the work only we can do. That is where I think the distinction lies between exegesis and eisegesis. An exegetical hermeneutics should, as objectively as possible, describe, through textual and source criticism, the intentionalities of the writer(s) of a particular religious scripture. A purely eisegetical hermeneutics, on the other hand, imposes the perspective of the interpreter, inspired or not, on the text. In this case, the object of interpreter is to understand what the text itself means (perhaps in the Mind of God), irrespective of any thinking in the minds of the writers. The Kitab-i-Iqan and Some Answered Questions would contain examples of eisegetical hermeneutics, as would, on an obviously lower level, what is generally referred to as Baha'i deepening. Of course, in practice, it may often be impossible for the **textual critic** to separate these two forms of hermeneutics. Most scholarly criticism, especially by believers, contains elements of both exegesis and eisegesis. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Dean, You wrote: Why do you say this is merely a suggestion by Nabil? I think you were on Tarikh when we had a thorough discussion of this, and hopefully you kept up with the arguments and don't want me to reinvent the wheel now. Nabil was in no position to know *exactly* who the Letters were. There is nothing from the Bab that gives the names either. So, Nabil pulled his best info together (a little Text, a little hearsay, a little guess work, etc) and came up with a list that represents his best guesstimate. It is no more than that: A suggested list. Other folks, like Qabil Abadihiy, have made other suggestions. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Letters of the Living
Dear Sandra, Ahang, can you offer an opinion on how identification of the Eighteen might be resolved eventually? In my view, I don't think it can be solved. I think we can be certain of some and will never know for sure about others. For instance, any list of Letters of the Living will have Quddus, Tahirih, Mulla Husayn, Mulla Baqir, etc, on it. But there will always be a debate about the identity of some others. That is, there are differences among early lists and I don't think we are in a position to resolve these differences one way or other. Shoghi Effendi wanted to name each of the terraces below and above the Shrine of the Bab after one of the Letters. I think he eventually gave up on the idea recognizing that whatever list he proposed, it would not end the debate and someone would point to some early list and would say, But what about this other fellow? Why is he not a Letter? So the safest course for Shoghi Effendi was to do nothing, namely, not to propose a list. And even if Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha had offered a list, I'm not sure if we could ascribed any final authority to it. That is, that would open up the question: Were Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi authorized to make pronouncements about the Babi Dispensation? That's a pretty difficult question and I rather not get into it. I simply raised it to illustrate the complexity of the terrain. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as "E-Contract Intended", this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. FrancaisDeutschItalianoEspanolPortuguesJapaneseChineseKorean www.dupont.com/corp/email_disclaimer.html __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
