Re: reflection on future bahá'í society
I agree with the feeling that education for all should mean free education. Dear Loic, The thing is that the Aqdas doesn't talk about free education for all, it talks about free education for those who can't afford it. But ordinarily, according to the Aqdas the father is responsible for the education of his children and if he refuses to pay for it and is able to, the House of Justice can take the amount necessary for this from him. But I believe some people would like to work as farmer or mechanician, as soon as these activities will no longer be seen and paid as poor work. They aren't poor work now. Most farmers and mechanics make a good living in the US at least. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: reflection on future bahá'í society
This means that free and obligatory education would cause people freedom to choose their academic plan, Dear Hasan, I don't get the impression from the Writings that education will necessarily be free. In fact the Aqdas requires a father educate his children and only if he cannot afford to do so does the House of Justice step in. For me, this raises 2 first questions: What will be the criterion to determinate which people go to what career or office or business? Who will determinate that and how can be that be done? I would expect it would be the same criteria that determines the career paths most people choose in countries where education is already readily available. We gravitate to where our talents lie. I did not think about going to medical school because I've no great aptitude for science and besides, I hate needles and blood. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: reflection on future bahá'í society
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:This means that free and obligatory education would cause people freedom to choose their academic plan, Dear Hasan, I don't get the impression from the Writings that education will necessarily be free. In fact the Aqdas requires a father educate his children and only if he cannot afford to do so does the House of Justice step in. Well, how obligatory education is obligatory if it is not free? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: For me, this raises 2 first questions: What will be the criterion to determinate which people go to what career or office or business? Who will determinate that and how can be that be done? I would expect it would be the same criteria that determines the career paths most people choose in countries where education is already readily available. We gravitate to where our talents lie. I did not think about going to medical school because I've no great aptitude for science and besides, I hate needles and blood. / Nobody will want to be a farmer or proletary, who will want to do mechanic job, I think this is not is the higher academic aim of human being. http://hasaneliasperu.blogspot.com/ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: reflection on future bahá'í society
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: This means that free and obligatory education would cause people freedom to choose their academic plan, Dear Hasan, I don't get the impression from the Writings that education will necessarily be free. In fact the Aqdas requires a father educate his children and only if he cannot afford to do so does the House of Justice step in. Well, how obligatory education is obligatory if it is not free? [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: For me, this raises 2 first questions: What will be the criterion to determinate which people go to what career or office or business? Who will determinate that and how can be that be done? I would expect it would be the same criteria that determines the career paths most people choose in countries where education is already readily available. We gravitate to where our talents lie. I did not think about going to medical school because I've no great aptitude for science and besides, I hate needles and blood. / Nobody will want to be a farmer or proletary, who will want to do mechanic job, I think this is not is the higher academic aim of human being. http://hasaneliasperu.blogspot.com/ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ Correo Yahoo! Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis! Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: reflection on future bahá'í society
Well, how obligatory education is obligatory if it is not free? Dear Hasan, It is obligatory because the Aqdas requires a father to educate his son. If the father fails to do so the House of Justice has the right to take the money from the father. If he cannot afford it, then the House of Justice or someone else should pay for the education. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Reflection
Hello Susan, essentialist racial appropriations endure, even though as Native writer and filmmaker Sherman Alexie says, "The endgame of essentialism was flying airplanes into buildings." Could you please explain what essentialism means? Thanks, Tim Nolan Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Reflection
Patti, You are quite right here to note that the statement need not be taken genetically. Let me cite the original quotation, your comment, and then I'll add a couple final thoughts on this topic. -Original Message- From: Patti Goebel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] . . . they have always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth. Persia herself, moreover! Another way to look at this is that the endowments conferred by birth are not anything genetic, but rather the circumstances into which a child is born, including natural resources, culture, knowledge base, spiritual base, etc. In 'Abdu'l-Baha's statement, it is important to note that he writes endowments conferred by birth. That which is genetic is there at conception. At birth, one is brought into a family, a community, a culture, a language, etc. all of which determines those particular endowments conferred by birth to a person. I remember a story a number of years back when a famous delicatessen was closing in Brooklyn, NYC. Many patrons were coming by for their final orders of gefilte fish, lox, knishes, etc. A reporter was covering the closing of a century's long institution in the community. As one customer left with her order of knishes, the reporter approached her and requested a brief interview about the deli. She agreed, and the reporter asked her why she had come by for her ceremonial final order . . . particularly noting that she was African-American. In New York, folks are pretty direct with questions, so she understood the question and did not take offense. Her response? . . . She looked at the reporter for _The Christian Science Monitor_ as if he was a bit clueless, and then she replied, Don't you understand? This is New York! Here we're all Jews! It's part of the dominant culture, part of all of us. Of course, she was not saying that she was ethnically nor religiously Jewish, but that part of her respective endowments conferred by birth included growing up within a part of NYC that was predominantly Jewish and that it was part of her culture thereby as a local resident. This is very much the case in the northwestern part of New Mexico where the predominant culture is Navajo. Everyone connected with that region is informed by the dominant Navajo culture, and of course, everyone in New Mexico is part Hispanic since the culture pervades the entire state (albeit differently in different regions). Many Native American writers from New Mexico or who have spent many formative years there include Navajo/Dine' concepts and words in their writing, even though their genetic tribal backgrounds are not Navajo. [Of course, there is an important and, sometimes, a very fine line between being part of a culture versus problematic (and, at times, outright racist) appropriations. One infamous example was the book published a number of years back by Asa Carter entitled _The Education of Little Tree_ that purported to be the author's romanticized and nostalgized growing years as a Cherokee boy. As it turns out, the author was not Cherokee, and, in fact, had been an active member of the Ku Klux Klan throughout his life. The book was an outright fabrication, but its romanticized Euroamerican views of Native culture spoke strongly to Euroamericans who loved the book whose sales propelled the tranformation of the book into a financially successful, yet racially stereoptypic film.] Native American appropriation is a very loaded and sensitive issue throughout Indian country . . . and a very \\HOT// topic here in Illinois. Post-modernism notwithstanding, essentialist racial appropriations endure, even though as Native writer and filmmaker Sherman Alexie says, The endgame of essentialism was flying airplanes into buildings. Would that all people would take to heart Baha'u'llah's words that The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. We all need to start listening to each others' stories and making choices truly based on conversive consultation. My state of Illinois is very divided because of the issue of Native American mascots even at the highest levels of state government. Mark, as a Sociologist, you must be very aware of our situation here since I understand that the University of Illinois is one of the primary current examples of institutional racism in contemporary Sociology texts. The difference between being part of a culture versus an outside appropriation is hard for many to understand. Anyway, greetings to all online here. Even when I do not post for awhile, I am an active reader of your posts and have learned so much from the friends on this list. Thank you, Mark and Susan, for this listserve. Susan Dr. Susan Berry Brill de Ramirez, Professor of English Department of English, Bradley University, Peoria, IL 61625 U.S.A. (309) 677-3888, fax: (309)
Re: Reflection
Dear Hasan, Somehow, I missed some of Susan M. comments. No doubt she has insights into the historical aspects that are beyond my expertise, ... what an understatement ! As we study the Writings all of us are striving to glean whatever spiritual implications we might apply to our own spiritual growth. The beauty of sharing opinions (acquired knowledge) and insights (intuitive understanding) is that our perspective is expanded and we see the many facets of truth. Lovingly, Sandra PS: Thanks to both you and Brent for all the references you sent on re: under/upper world. Busy time. May comment further after I read everything... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
It should not be imagined that the people of Persia are inherently deficient in intelligence, or that for essential perceptiveness and understanding, inborn sagacity, intuition and wisdom, or innate capacity, they are inferior to others. God forbid! On the contrary, they have always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth. Persia herself, moreover! I read this quotation in a different way from the insights already offered. I, like Sandra, take 'Abdu'l-Baha's comment quite literally. Another way to look at this is that the endowments conferred by birth are not anything genetic, but rather the circumstances into which a child is born, including natural resources, culture, knowledge base, spiritual base, etc. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
Hi, folks, 'Abdu'l-Baha frequently used the literary device of mubalaghah (hyperbole). I know one person, an African American, who left the Baha'i Faith due to a lack of knowledge of this convention: ... man, if he is left without education, becomes bestial, and, moreover, if left under the rule of nature, becomes lower than an animal, whereas if he is educated he becomes an angel. For the greater number of animals do not devour their own kind, but men, in the Sudan, in the central regions of Africa, kill and eat each other. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.7 A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p.119 The leaders of this religion [Protestant Christianity] are still making every effort to promote it, and today on the East Coast of Africa, ostensibly to emancipate the Sudanese and various Negro peoples, they have established schools and colleges and are training and civilizing completely savage African tribes, while their true and primary purpose is to convert some of the Muslim Negro tribes to Protestantism. -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Secret of Divine Civilization, pp.42-43 Here is Shoghi Effendi *not* using mubalaghah: It shows that a spiritual receptivity, a purity of heart and uprightness of character exists potentially amongst many of the peoples of the Pacific Isles to an extent equal to that of the tribesmen of Africa. It is indeed an encouraging and awe-inspiring sight to witness the spread of our beloved Faith amongst those whom civilised nations misguidedly term 'savages', 'primitive peoples' and uncivilised nations.' From a letter dated July 11, 1956, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi and cited: Unfolding Destiny, p.365 In my view, the same figure of speech, mubalaghah, is used by `Abdu'l-Baha when referring to the past accomplishments of Persians. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
In a message dated 8/17/2004 5:42:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the contrary, they have always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth. Dear Hasan, I'd call it hyperbole. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "On the contrary, they have always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth". Dear Hasan, I'd call it hyperbole. warmest, Susan *** Dear Susan, Why is it a "hyperbole"? you mean my words? thanks, HasanSi un bahá'í se abstiene de participar completa, vigorosamente y de todo corazón en la labor de la enseñanza, indudablemente será privado de las bendiciones del Reino de Abhá. Abdul-BaháDo You Yahoo!? Todo lo que quieres saber de Estados Unidos, América Latina y el resto del Mundo. Visíta Yahoo! Noticias. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reflection
Why is it a "hyperbole"? you mean my words? Dear Hasan, No, no. Abdu'l-Baha's words here are hyperbole. It is a common literary device used a in Persian literature where one tends to extravagantly overstate one's point. I don't think Abdu'l-Baha believed the Persians were innately superior to other races. His point here is that they were not at all innately inferior as their present condition in relationship to the West might seem to suggest. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
