Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How others can call us the main-stream Baha'is? Any individual could be either a Baha'i or non-Baha'i. There is nothing in between. I don't think we can expect non-Baha'is to accept that premise, Firouz. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549547-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think by using the word mainstream in front of Baha'is we are creating disunity. It's a good point, but it will only cause disunity if the Bahais think that the mainstream Bahais are some core group within the Bahai community. Covenant-breaker is a term that should only be used for those few people who have defined as covenant-breakers by the UHJ. To me that is a good reason for using it. There are a handful of people like yourself who have not been officially declared Covenant breakers who call themselves Baha'is but are not recognized as such by the Universal House of Justice. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549548-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is a Muslim group __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549549-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 12:55 PM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? They can call themselves by their sect names, i.e. Sunni or Shia. As they have not fully understood the Teachings of Prophet Muhammad and have not recognized the advent of Baha'u'llah. Remember that in Quran, some other prophets were called Muslims. So considering this meaning of Islam, Baha'is are true Muslims. And Shias and Sunnis failed to surrender to Will of God. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549437-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment. Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no personal attacks, content should be relevant to the Bahai faith, etc.) that might make things better. You must find the Bahai idea itself to be essentially disparaging to Islam. You must also find humanist views to be disparaging. Why are you on a Bahai list? The Bahai idea that the Quran has been supersceded because the quran is harmful to society is essentially disparaging. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549441-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So basically Ibn Ishaq agrees that Nakhlah was intended as a reconnaissance mission. Bahais, wake up already. Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are recruiting people here, to attack the Bahais where it hurts, from within. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549443-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I can let a lot of comments slide, and I have, but sometimes it just gets too much (considering the Islamophobia that is current in Europe and the U.S.) I am sure if a Baha'i were on a Muslim list, and someone started saying things about the Baha'i Faith that he/she thought were inaccurate or disrespectful, I can almost guarantee that they would say something. It is human nature to do so. I am always kicked off of Moslem lists. you need a bit of your own medicine. Christian and Moslem and Bahai cannot be reconciled, unless they all come to their senses and admit that all their books are made up by their authors. But unfortunately for Muslims and especially Christians, its had to determine which parts of the text, if any, actually go back to *one author, and even the existence of Jesus and Mohamed has been questioned.* __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549445-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv From: bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu [mailto:bounce-549420-27...@list.jccc.edu] On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D. Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. I am just a humble. Lowly, insignificant reader of this list from time to time. I believe that the studies part of this list’s purpose has diminished exponentially recently. But I believe that Mr Gilberto Simpson should be kept as a contributor. Gilberto knows and I have with greatest respect mentioned this to him that he should not re-iterate finality [khatmiyyat without engaging with all the Bahai Proofs on this. But of course, of course, he is entitled to continue on his point of view re: khatmiyyat and khaatamiyyat. I have friends who not just for ten years but for over thirty years insist on their own point of view re *seal-ship* and then suddenly open us lovingly to the Bahai Teachings, to Baha’u’llah and this Day of God (Yawm uLlaah). In fact just last week u met an Egyptian of great learning and erudition and I asked him what made you go over the impassable bridge of verse 33:40 on to the Bahai? He replied that for over 30 years! he disputed and attacked the Bahai position with all the “weapons” in his “armamentarium” and then…and then…suddenly alone one night he wondered what was the connection what is the connection of the Holy Prophet’s Marriage to Zayd’s recently divorced wife Zaynab got to do with finality of revelation?...because the first part of the verse is most clearly a reference to that person Zayd etc and the second part of verse 33:40 mentions (Khaatam)… He followed his conscience on this… Further I have had a dream …I won’t mention the details of it but I did dream that a Holy Soul in Islam (I forget whether it was, I ask forgiveness of God!, The Prophet HimSelf or one of the Imams said to me: ** Gilberto will come. Gilberto will see. You have shown Gilberto love. It will not go wasted…) something like this.** So let us all be respectful and continue genuine in depth study. For example and in all sincerity I ask has any one on this list read this book Tolerance and coercion in Islam: interfaith relations in the Muslim tradition http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Cprintsec=frontcoversource=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Description: Description: Front Cover http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+inauthor:%22Yohanan+Friedmann%22 Yohanan Friedmann http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Csitesec=reviews 1 Review Cambridge University Press, 2003 - http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+subject:%22Religion%22source=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Religion - 233 pages Since the beginning of its history, Islam has encountered other religious communities both in Arabia and in the territories conquered during its expansion. Muslims faced other religions from the position of a ruling power and were therefore able to determine the nature of that relationship in accordance with their world-view and beliefs. Yohanan Friedmann's original and erudite study examines questions of religious tolerance as they appear in the Quran and in the prophetic tradition, and analyses the principle that Islam is exalted above all religions, discussing the ways in which this principle was reflected in various legal pronouncements. The book also considers the various interpretations of the Quranic verse according to which 'No compulsion is there in religion', noting that, despite the apparent meaning of this verse, Islamic law allowed the practice of religious coercion against Manichaeans and Arab idolators, as well as against women and children in certain circumstances. And the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549450-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http
RE: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Khazeh sends with spellings checked this time. Please discard the last one On Behalf Of Iskandar Hai, M.D. Sent: 31 December 2010 06:26 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dr Hai wrote: *** I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. *** khazeh fananapazir writes: I am just a humble, lowly, insignificant reader of this list and that only from time to time. I believe that the studies part of this list’s purpose has diminished exponentially recently. But I believe that Mr Gilberto Simpson should be kept as a contributor. So also should my dear Dr HAI. Gilberto knows (and I have, with the greatest respect, mentioned this to him ) that he should not re-iterate finality [khatmiyyat without engaging with all the Bahai Proofs on this just repeating and repeating. But of course, of course, my dear Gilberto is entitled to continue on his point of view re: khatmiyyat and khaatamiyyat. Religious views can be the most firmly held views on earth. I have friends who not just for ten years but for over thirty years insist on their own point of view re *seal-ship* and then suddenly they open themselves lovingly to the Bahai Teachings, to Baha’u’llah and to appreciating this Day of God (Yawm uLlaah). In fact just last week I met an Egyptian of great learning and erudition and I asked him: ** what made you go over the impassable bridge of verse 33:40 on to the Bahai? This so impossible bridge “a bridge to far” ** He replied that for over 30 years! he disputed and attacked the Bahai position with all the “weapons” in his “armamentarium” and then…and then…suddenly alone one night he wondered what was the connection what was meant to be the connection or relevance of the Holy Prophet’s Marriage to Zayd’s recently divorced wife Zaynab with finality of revelation?...because the first part of the verse is most clearly a reference to that person Zayd etc and the second part of verse 33:40 mentions (Khaatam)… He followed his conscience on this…and studied Bahá’u’lláh’s Writings. Further personally I (khazeh) have had a dream …I won’t mention the details of it but I did dream that a Holy Soul in Islam (I forget whether it was, I ask forgiveness of God!, the Prophet HimSelf or one of the Imams said to me: ** Gilberto will come. Gilberto will see. Gilberto will appreciate the Faith. You have shown Gilberto love. It will not go wasted…) something like this. ** So let us all be respectful and continue genuine and in depth study. For example and in all sincerity I ask has any one on this list read this book Tolerance and coercion in Islam: interfaith relations in the Muslim tradition http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Cprintsec=frontcoversource=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+inauthor:%22Yohanan+Friedmann%22 Yohanan Friedmann http://books.google.com/books?id=a0nToibj6K4Csitesec=reviews 1 Review Cambridge University Press, 2003 - http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1tbo=pq=+subject:%22Religion%22source=gbs_ge_summary_rcad=0 Religion - 233 pages Since the beginning of its history, Islam has encountered other religious communities both in Arabia and in the territories conquered during its expansion. Muslims faced other religions from the position of a ruling power and were therefore able to determine the nature of that relationship in accordance with their world-view and beliefs. Yohanan Friedmann's original and erudite study examines questions of religious tolerance as they appear in the Quran and in the prophetic tradition, and analyses the principle that Islam is exalted above all religions, discussing the ways in which this principle was reflected in various legal pronouncements. The book also considers the various interpretations of the Quranic verse according to which 'No compulsion is there in religion', noting that, despite the apparent meaning of this verse, Islamic law allowed the practice of religious coercion against Manichaeans and Arab idolators, as well as against women and children in certain circumstances. But the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary Your loving friend in His Path khazeh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549451-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think ungodly really means atheist here. Dear Firouz, I don't think so either. Abdu'-Baha applied this passage to the Covenant breakers. Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549454-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
So you can't go on pilgrimage to Mecca. What's your point.
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
__
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv List purpose? Excuse me? What is the purpose of a Baha'i studies list? To continue to hear from Gilberto that Islam is the last religion, Quran the last word, and Muhammad the last prophet of God, again and again, and again? Dear Iskandar, I don't think it was Gilberto who raised this issue in the first place. The list has been disintegrating for weeks and it has nothing to do with Gilberto. In fact the exchanges between Khazeh and Gilberto were the most scholarly thing happening on this list. Is that the list purpose. You know fully well that the list has ceased to be a Baha'i studies list for a long time. At least it was dealing with the Baha'i Faith rather than attacks on Islam. I'm just trying to show you and to show all that the list has been hijacked by Gilberto and his agenda. That's not what people are seeing. What they are seeing is a lot of mean-spirited attacks on Islam on your part. As long as Gilberto stays, I seriously doubt if there will ever be any issues related to Baha'i studies on this list. I don't see Gilberto sabotaging serious efforts to discuss the Baha'i Faith. Well, I tell you what: I will stick around. If you don't like it, *you* are free to leave. How do you like that? Fine, but you can no longer use the argument that I asked Gilberto to leave and he did not do so, because insofar as that is true, it is true for the both of you. I have no paranoia towards Gilberto. All I'm saying is that there has been no real or serious study of the Baha'i Faith on this list since Gilberto has been around. It has nothing to do with Gilberto. There are others on this list that have made that difficult. Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549457-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Gilberto and Matt are just two examples, but Muslims are on a reconnaissance mission here, have recruited others, and are recruiting people here, to attack the Bahais where it hurts, from within. If so, you are likely one of them. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549458-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 10:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. I did not mean the Muslims in this Forum who are very respectable Muslims. My question was a general question referring to associating with all people in spirit of respect and joy. Regarding the Hidden Words quote. Baha'u'llah revealed it in Baghdad before His declaration in 1963. At those days there were no covenant breakers. Were there? If it refers to Covenant-Breakers, Muslims have broken the greater covenant of God. Are they considered in this verse? Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549460-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Abdu'l-Baha refers to this particular HW in one of his oral statements quoted in Khatirat Habib, and says that it refers to the enemies of God. The phrase enemies of God may include Covenant-breakers, but that's a slippery slope (because as Firouz rightly says may then be used as a weapon against this or that group). I would stick with Abdu'l-Baha's broad statement that it refers to the enemies of God and leave it at that. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 10:42 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? None of the Muslims here fit that category and they are the ones being insulted. I did not mean the Muslims in this Forum who are very respectable Muslims. My question was a general question referring to associating with all people in spirit of respect and joy. Regarding the Hidden Words quote. Baha'u'llah revealed it in Baghdad before His declaration in 1963. At those days there were no covenant breakers. Were there? If it refers to Covenant-Breakers, Muslims have broken the greater covenant of God. Are they considered in this verse? Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549460-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549461-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv And the only thing I beg of Gilberto Simpson is that he should not provoke simple and hopefully pure souls like me by writing *Haifan Baha’is* as in his letter of December the 21st **Naison, I don't think you got what I intended to say. Once you've chosen to be a Haifan Bahai, then by all means, make a commitment to follow all of the rules of the Aqdas and the guidance of the UHJ.** It is provocative a bit and it is not necessary I very much agree with Khazeh here, although I would point out that it was a Baha'i on this list who first started using the phrase, not Gilberto. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549471-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I do not think the solution is to expel Gilberto, but the moderator would do well not to allow litanic discussions on the relationship between the Faith and the Islam. Dear Husayn, Until discussions began to disintegrate recently, the recent discussions about the relations between Islam and the Baha'i Faith seem to me to have been the only thing remotely involving scholarship on this list in the last several months. I would, however, like to ask Gilberto to stop responding to Iskandar's attempts to bait him as it will only make things worse. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549474-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No one would be there over Christmas break. I have left a message on Mark's voice mail, however. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Tim Nolan tnola...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. Susan, Have you tried telephoning the sociology department of the college where Mark teaches? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 11:06:23 PM Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv It may be that the college only permits list owners to have those privileges, and only permits people to be list owners who are affiliated w/ the college. No, the problem has to do with the fact that when they moved the list over to a different server I could never figure out how to use the new tools and Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549225-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549470-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549475-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment. Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no personal attacks, content should be relevant to the Bahai faith, etc.) that might make things better. This are already list guidelines which are currently being ignored. Since Iskandar appears completely out of control I would hope that you will be the better man by ignoring these attacks. The less you two interact with one another for the time being, the better. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549476-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? That's the phrase I prefer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549479-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv there are the denominations 'Unitarian Bahai', 'Bahai UPC', 'Orthodox Baha'is', and even 'free Baha'i' and 'Baha'i Faith reformed'. such groups and individuals have created their own specific names. and kindly leave the way open to us simply call ourselves Bahais :) http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El vie, 12/31/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com escribió: De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 04:23 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv . Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? That's the phrase I prefer. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:husaynvil...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549479-237092.3be94ed465ba6b97bf89d88057a09...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549490-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31 Dec 2010 at 16:20, Gilberto Simpson wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't have a problem with avoiding the phrase. It wasn't meant to be provocative or insulting. But as an outsider to the conflicts between different groups which all claim to follow Bahaullah, I'm not sure what is the best neutral way to describe the largest group. Would it be offensive to say mainstream Bahais? Mainstream is a good term, since it recognises the fact that 99.9% or more of all Bahais who are committed members of any particular Bahai community, are members of the Bahai World Community headed by the Universal House of Justice. The other Bahai identities together add up to maybe 100 or 200 members, they can be called fringe groups or splinter groups or micro groups, simply on grounds of size. Sen -- -- Sen McGlinn http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com The influence of individual souls is and always will be beloved. For the influence of each soul is its fruit, and a soul without influence is considered a tree without fruit in the most great realm. Speak forth for the sake of God, and spread the cause for his sake. Do not look at whether others accept or deny, but rather at the service you are commanded to perform by God. Baha'u'llah -- Tablet of the Son -- http://www- personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2001/bhson.htm __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549493-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Yes, I know that most organizations are not. My point was that the single word Baha'i is easy to identify how the group of people who recognize and obey the UHJ. but, well, it is a relative perception. BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? How many members does this group? http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El vie, 12/31/10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com escribió: De: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 07:02 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv there are the denominations 'Unitarian Bahai', 'Bahai UPC', 'Orthodox Baha'is', and even 'free Baha'i' and 'Baha'i Faith reformed'. Dear Husayn, Email lists do not constitute denominations and that is all the Unitarian and Reformed Baha'i Faiths consist of. The Free Baha'is no longer exist except as a website set up by Fred Glaysher to make it appear as though there are more dissident groups than there are. Certainly the OBF has been around for awhile, though they admitted in court that they number only about 30 people in the US. The BUPC is really a separate cult. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:husaynvil...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549492-237092.3be94ed465ba6b97bf89d88057a09...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549495-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) (correct)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, Yes, I know that most are not organizations. My point was that the single word Baha'i is easy to identify how the group of people who recognize and obey the UHJ. but, well, it is a relative perception. BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? How many members does this group? best regards, husa __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549496-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv BUPC is the neal Chase's group, rigth? The BUPC has splintered into several groups since Leland Jensen died. I think Neal Chase's group might be the largest. Is the alias J.T. Lamb his? That I don't know. How many members does this group? I don't think any of the BUPC have more than a dozen followers. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549498-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. Susan, Suppose there is a small group of people who called themselves chemists, but they reject the periodic table of elements, and they deny the laws of thermodynamics. I think it's legitimate to say they are not really chemists. And it would be misleading to say that real chemists are mainstream chemists, which implies that the pseudo chemists have some validity. It does not require any faith to see the legitimatre succession of authority in the Baha'i Faith, it only requires reading the relevant documents: The Kitab-i-Ahd, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Tablet of the Branch, Tablet to the Land of Ba, Abdu'l Baha's Will and Testament, and the pertinent writings of Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i Covenant is so clear, so explicit, that any honest fair-minded person who reads those documents -with proper context such as defining branch - would see that the covenant breakers claims are illogical and without foundation. Calling Baha'is mainstream or Haifan, implies that there is some validity to the covenant breakers claims. Just my 2 cents. And Happy Birthday on Monday! Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 12:15:35 AM Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) The Baha'i Studies Listserv Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called covenant-breakers. The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549518-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549520-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Calling Baha'is mainstream or Haifan, implies that there is some validity to the covenant breakers claims. I don't think mainstream implies that. I think it implies that at most these other groups are offshoots. And Happy Birthday on Monday! Thanks. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549521-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 1/1/2011 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called covenant-breakers. The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. __ But this Bahai-St list is not an academic list. It is certainly a Baha'i list. How others can call us the main-stream Baha'is? Any individual could be either a Baha'i or non-Baha'i. There is nothing in between. Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549522-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549253-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan stop making things up. Abdulbaha never said all of mohammed's actions were defensive. What does defensive mean anyway? Killing is killing either way. Sent by iPhone On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What `Abdu'l-Baha endorses is the defensive wars in early Islam. But there were offensive raids, etc. too. Abdu'l-Baha insisted that all of Muhammad's actions were defensive. If you want to argue with Him about that, be my guest. For my part I'm going to do everything I can to get Mark to pull the plug on this list. A Baha'i list which becomes an excuse for attacking other religions ought not to exist. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:atheistchallen...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549226-2492670.eb1a6b0f1f2235ea71247a25e1960...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549264-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, you don't know Baha'i writings. Sent by iPhone On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Just warfare is in the context of collective security, in order to stop an aggressor. So is jihad when properly understood. That's actually the point of SAQ: Looks like Gilberto knows the Writings better than you do, Iskandar. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:atheistchallen...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549227-2492670.eb1a6b0f1f2235ea71247a25e1960...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549265-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan is a Muslim just like Sen. I'm telling you. On Dec 29, 2010, at 11:28 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I am just stating the facts. You draw your own conclusions. So, the raids were ordered by Muhammad himself. Right? The Baha'i concept of Manifestation of God is irrelevant here. Or, maybe I am a Baha'i that is quite selective in his beliefs just like you who are so conveniently selective in your beliefs and sources, etc. None of your business. Did Muhammad order a series of raids or not? That's the question. Yes, he did. And his religion can't be the last religion. You are silent regarding actions of your venerable sahabah `Umar, or `Uthman and their conquests. `Abdu'l-Baha's comments in SAQ are for apologetic purposes, Susan. For a Christian audience. And since when is `Abdu'l-Baha an infallible source in matters of history, especially ancient history? Or, are you saying that the best defense is a good offense, Susan? Are you guys so blind to the existence of violence and bloodshed in Islam? Why on earth was Baha'u'llah so perturbed as a child about such violence? Why did He abolish it if there never ever was any bloodshed and violence in Islam? What's wrong with you folks? Go ahead and defend Islam but don't ignore the facts. Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm asking because I honestly don't know what you believe. If you are refering to one or two years after the hijrah then the Prophet Muhammad would have still been alive and in charge, not Umar(ra) and it gives the impression that you as a Bahai are criticizing someone who is an infallible Manifestation according to the Bahai faith. So its like you hate Islam/Muslims so much that you don't even care about the positive things that the Bahai Faith actually has to say about Islam, you just have your own agenda. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Was somebody else approving the raids? On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually, there were a series of raids on Meccan caravans in the first 1-2 years of hijrah; and one of them occurred during the forbidden month of Rajab (I think it was the Nakhlah raid), one of them precipitated Badr. It's all in ibn-e ishaq and Tabari, and Bukhari, etc. So that we are clear, are you talking about raids which were approved of / commanded by / directed by Muhammad? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549224-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549228-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:atheistchallen...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549229-2492670.eb1a6b0f1f2235ea71247a25e1960...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public -
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv *In my Church and State and on my blog, I've presented an alternative explanation of the role of Muhammad and the Meccan Muslims in Medina.* Sen your blog is a front for Muslim expansion. You are an anti-Bahai. We atheists see you! :) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549269-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The founder of Bahaism abolished Jihad and the dispensation of the Quran and all other unholy Books like the Hindu books. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549270-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Muslims get no latitude until they FIRST give freedom to atheists in Muslims countries. You have no right to speak here among atheists. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549294-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Since when are we obligated to accept `Abdu'l-Baha's judgment on a matter of history? And history of another religion? I see. So you don't think Abdu'l-Baha knew anything about Muhammad's motivations. An unprovoked raid is an act of offense. Last I heard expelling people from their homes, requisitioning their property, etc. constituted provocation. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549311-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan is a covenant breaker __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549312-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. Granted, but this is not what Iskandar is attacking. He is having a temper tantrum because he doesn't want Gilberto on this list. I've not seen Gilberto representing any of the positions which most of us find objectionable about Muslims today. I think his perennialism is dead wrong but I don't see why we can't discuss that rational rather than take these kinds of pot-shots at Islam. I think perennialism leaves us in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their recent letter to the Counsellors. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549315-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think perennialism leaves us in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their recent letter to the Counsellors. Same here, tho I think what they are objecting to is not triumphalism per se, but such things as the Holier than thou attitude that typically accompanies it, and the idea that at some point we are going to take over the world and tell people how to act. Don C -- - - - Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549317-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
perennialism/triumphalism Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Is the letter available to the public online? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Don Calkins montana...@great-falls.net wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think perennialism leaves us in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their recent letter to the Counsellors. Same here, tho I think what they are objecting to is not triumphalism per se, but such things as the Holier than thou attitude that typically accompanies it, and the idea that at some point we are going to take over the world and tell people how to act. Don C -- - - - Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549317-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549318-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Read your Iqan. Atheist trumps all beliefs and faiths, it is certain. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549323-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: perennialism/triumphalism Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Is the letter available to the public online? It is being passed around the internet, but I don't think it is on any particular website. It was just released a day or so ago. It outlines the next Five Year Plan and most of it would not be of use to you, but let me see if I can't find the portion that condemns triumphalism. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549324-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: I am a man from Mars. Argue your points from a rational point of view, not because `Abdu'l-Baha said something in defense of Islam to a Christian audience. Well if you were from Mars I'd probably want to know about your Martian beliefs in order to figure out how much common ground we had. But let's say you weren't Bahai/Babi or Muslim on the one side, or pacifist on the other... I would probably point out that according to some sources, the raids were an attempt to recover property which the Muslims had lost to the Meccans when they became refugees during the hijra. Yes, I know that. Still, lying in ambush waiting for a trading caravan, in the forbidden month of Rajab, and shaving your head in order to give the false impression that your intention was pilgrimage (hajj), being deceitful, is not exactly an act of defense. Besides, how do you know that it was that particular caravan that had taken your property? No, I was not condemning Islam. I am just stating the facts such as jihad and the facts that were in that video. Or permission to beat your wife. These are facts. In my view, they mean that the time of Islamic. Dispensation has passed. It's not a condemnation. I don't appreciate being lectured at regarding what a moral code of conduct for a Baha'i should be. I'd like to be given the latitude of making my own judgment based on my own understanding. I think that if you don't like being told what Bahais are supposed to believe, then I would ask you to keep that feeling in mind before you lecture Muslims about what Islam teaches. You should give Muslims the latitude to make their own judgement based on their own understanding. I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all. You did not leave the list when you were asked to. That's just common netiquette. Nothing religious about it. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549326-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Sen, what you are desrcribing is police or sheriff function. I'm talking about jihad the way it is normally understood to mean. Holy War, or unholy war. When someone puts a sword to your neck until you say the shahadah. That's ugly and unholy. Baha'u'llah did not forbid police function. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Sen Sonja sen.so...@casema.nl wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 29 Dec 2010 at 20:01, Gilberto Simpson wrote: I'm just interested in discussing the forms of warfare / jihad which would have permissible under Muhammad (saaws) or the Imams. Are you saying that Muhammad and/or the Imams led offensive raids? In my Church and State and on my blog, I've presented an alternative explanation of the role of Muhammad and the Meccan Muslims in Medina. Basically, I think the elders of Medina decided to outsource their security, as Taif and Mecca had done: contracting a particular group to provide external security. In the case of Medina, that meant running patrols in the surrounding area, maintaining friendly contacts with nomadic peoples, collecting taxes from caravans passing through the territory dominated by Medina, and encouraging caravans to come to Medina. This effort (jihad) was what was required of the Meccan Muslims, in return for a place of refuge for them in the settlement. Surah 2:218, for example, refers to those who have migrated and have engaged in jihad (haajaruu wa jaahhaduu), but this jihand is simply the `efforts´ (jahuud, jihaad) that the migrants had to make in return for their residence in Medina. At that time, there was no state of war with Mecca. The few Medinan Muslims did not participate in the jihad, they were not part of that contract. For more detail see my blog at: http://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/muhammad-at- medina/#politics Sen sen.so...@casema.nl senmcglinn.wordpress.com -- -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549327-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Since when are we obligated to accept `Abdu'l-Baha's judgment on a matter of history? And history of another religion? I see. So you don't think Abdu'l-Baha knew anything about Muhammad's motivations. It is `Abdu'l-Baha's understang and judgement of history. I am not sure we are obligated to just swallow it whole, uncritically. An unprovoked raid is an act of offense. Last I heard expelling people from their homes, requisitioning their property, etc. constituted provocation. And being deceitful in your actions, shaving your head in the month of Rajab, pretending that you intended to go on hajj, is defensive? Best regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549330-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all. Ibn Ishaq and the other sources you referenced aren't Muslim texts. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549332-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Nice. So, now, I am the bad guy. I am having a temper tantrum. Thanks for the ad hominem, Susan. Go ahead. Hurl more personal attacks on me. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. Granted, but this is not what Iskandar is attacking. He is having a temper tantrum because he doesn't want Gilberto on this list. I've not seen Gilberto representing any of the positions which most of us find objectionable about Muslims today. I think his perennialism is dead wrong but I don't see why we can't discuss that rational rather than take these kinds of pot-shots at Islam. I think perennialism leaves us in the Dark Ages, but triumphalism is not good either. I was rather pleased to see the House of Justice criticize that attitude in their recent letter to the Counsellors. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549315-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549333-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. It's in Bukhari too. There are dark passages in the Quran as well. Beating your wife is one. Not befriending Jews/Christians is another. Killing the mushrikeen wherever you find them is yet another. I have not interest in your interpretations. Let the text of the book that you believe is the very last book of God speak for itself. Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. I am telling you what your Muslim texts say. That's all. Ibn Ishaq and the other sources you referenced aren't Muslim texts. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549334-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Iskandar wrote: It is `Abdu'l-Baha's understang and judgement of history. I am not sure we are obligated to just swallow it whole, uncritically. I say: No it is not. Abdulbaha was being diplomatic by covering muhammad's sins and the satanic origins of Quran. With the invention of the Internet, the days of diplomacy have ended. It is now the day of truths. Also note that abdulbaha was only diplomatic with the Christians in American and Europe and Arabian countries, because the people who were attracted to abdulbaha were interested in Arabs and Indians.He didn't say those things to Pars-Iranians. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549335-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. I didn't say all of that. But in the same way that Bahais don't view pilgrim's notes as binding or authoritative, Ibn Ishaq is also not binding or authoritative. He was a Muslim historian. Fine. Nobody is saying he got everything right. It's in Bukhari too. I just did a search in Bukhari under Rajab and nothing about caravan raids came up. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549337-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Don't compare Baha'i to Islam. There is no comparison. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549341-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? Earlier you were saying that the raids were for purposes of getting their property back. Now you are questioning the early sources? How convenient. There were more than half a dozen raids, not all of them were successful. The Nakhla raid occurred in Rajab. And there was yet another caravan raid later and that precipitated the battle of Badr. How do you know that the caravan that was attacked was actually the folks who had taken your property? Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. I didn't say all of that. But in the same way that Bahais don't view pilgrim's notes as binding or authoritative, Ibn Ishaq is also not binding or authoritative. He was a Muslim historian. Fine. Nobody is saying he got everything right. It's in Bukhari too. I just did a search in Bukhari under Rajab and nothing about caravan raids came up. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549345-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Of course he will deny it. He believes allah, some guy with a long beard, send the koran to muhammad. How could this koran possibly say anything improper, and how could mohamed do anything improper? Moses wasnt a murderer according to this guy. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549350-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549351-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn Ishaq is an unreliable Muslim liar? Or, is he a Jewish liar? Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. Ibn Ishaq has an anti-Muslim agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list and you had been asked to leave and you still refuse. So, why don't you give up? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549351-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549363-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what happened in Medina with what happened at Masada centuries earlier. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1454189 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549365-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the second time you have projected the anti-Muslim Jewish historian comment onto Gilberto, and yet he has not made that statement a single time..Not exactly the most fair tactic. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn Ishaq is an unreliable Muslim liar? Or, is he a Jewish liar? Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. Ibn Ishaq has an anti-Muslim agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list and you had been asked to leave and you still refuse. So, why don't you give up? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549351-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549363-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549367-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what happened in Medina with what happened at Masada centuries earlier. Some Jews will betray their own people for the right price. And Susan Maneck picks the appropriate anti-Bahai quotes every time. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549369-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Because he is so conveniently selective and always evasive. Did the caravan raids occur or not? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549367-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 16:54:29 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is the second time you have projected the anti-Muslim Jewish historian comment onto Gilberto, and yet he has not made that statement a single time..Not exactly the most fair tactic. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.comwrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. Maybe it is and maybe it is not. But it is in early histories. Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. But stories about Muhammad's caravan raids are in Bukhari. Are you saying ibn Ishaq is an unreliable Muslim liar? Or, is he a Jewish liar? Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. Ibn Ishaq has an anti-Muslim agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list and you had been asked to leave and you still refuse. So, why don't you give up? On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv So, now you just want to deny all the raid episodes altogether? No. You made a specific claim that Muhammad had the Muslims attack defenseless caravans in the month of Rajab (one of the forbidden months) and that your claim could be supported by Muslim sources (and you specifically mentioned Bukhari). What I'm telling you is that I checked Bukhari and it didn't seem to be there. I think what you can do is a) actually find Muslim sources (i.e. the Quran, authentic hadith) which support what you say or... b) give up your anti-Muslim crusade altogether , maybe focus on the Bahai Writings... __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549351-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549363-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549367-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549370-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Interesting. What about the caravan raids? Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®, typed with fat fingers on a small device. -Original Message- From: Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com Sender: bounce-549365-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 15:41:02 To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, sorry, I forgot that ibn Ishaq was an anti-Muslim Jewish historian. Actually there are historians who question the historicity of what is said to have happened to the Banu Qurayza. They suggest Ibn Ishaq relied to heavily on Jewish sources which conflated what happened in Medina with what happened at Masada centuries earlier. http://www.jstor.org/pss/1454189 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549365-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549372-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Walid N. Arafat and Barakat Ahmadhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakat_Ahmad have disputed that the Banu Qurayza were killed on quite such a large scale.[62]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-Meri1-61 Sounds like the Iranian policy that not that many Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Barakat Ahmad is an Ahmadiyya follower. http://aaiil.org/uk/alahmadiyya/1980/08aug/alahmadiyya_198008.pdf __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549377-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I did not say that particular story is in Bukhari. What you said was You are being very selective again. Very convenient. Doesn't surprise me. Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that ibn Ishaq was a Jewish anti-Muslim text. It's in Bukhari too. That's an exact quote. I did not know you had the Nakhla raid in mind. The it refers to the caravan raid story, not one particular raid. Are you denying that any raid ever took place? I already gave you a reason for at least some of the raids. So, the raids did take place. Now, you shave your head in the month of Rajab and lie in wait for a caravan of traders. What is that? Defense? I do not have an anti-Muslim cmpaign. You have a funny way of showing it. It may seem funny to you. But the issues regarding violence, women, apostasy, najas, finality, etc., etc. are not funny. As I said, I'm just telling you the facts, from your books. That is not an anti-Muslim campaign or agenda. You have an anti-Baha'i campaign on this list I think initially I was honestly very curious about the Bahai Faith and wanted to gain a better understanding of how it could be so similar to Islam in certain respects (believing in Muhammad, the Quran, the Imams, etc.) while being different in other respects. At this point, I think I have a better understanding of where the differences are. I don't expect (and never did expect) to convert anybody. But if someone is telling me that they believe in Muhammad, the Quran, the Imams, etc. then I would still think that has certain kinds of implications and I wouldn't expect them pour out the kind of hatred and resentment that I've seen from some people on the list. There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. The issues are the facts. the facts that are unfortunate, dark, and inconvenient but true facts nonetheless. Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. You are welcome to enjoy the paradise with the virgin hooris there or with the boys there. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549378-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Watt finds Arafat's arguments not entirely convincing,[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-Kurayza-0 while Meir J. Kister has contradicted the arguments of Arafat and Ahmad.[66]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#cite_note-65 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549379-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. And just fyi, I think the Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, and I am a Muslim. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549253-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549381-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Matt, you are lying, if it was beautiful you'd be Baha'i. Firuz has it backwards. Individual persons are supposed to be respected, but false ideologies and harmful philosophies are rejected. Religious ideas are harmful to society, especially quranic ideas. Baha'is say that Quran may have served a purpose and was okay a thousand of years ago, but today it is false and expired and in fact harmful to society now. Atheists say it wasn't even good a thousand years ago, let alone today. BUT, Baha'i ideas are harmless since Bahaullah dismisses the idea of a god altogether. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549382-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the caravan raids? What about them. The Meccans had expelled the Muslims and expropriated their property. The caravans raids were attempts to address that wrong. It doesn't have to be the same exact property. As for Muslim breaking carrying this out during the four months when war was to be suspended, this was a rule that the Meccans had devised for their own benefit. Is there some reason the Muslims should have played by their rules? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549383-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. The Writings go further than that. They say we should consort with the followers of all religions with joy and spirituality. I don't see much of that evident here of late. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549384-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, is there a reason you are INSISTING that Muhamed did nothing wrong? Jesus's was an illegitimate child (Mary had sex outside marriage) and Moses was murderer. But Muhammad is sinless? A Muslim is a Muslim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549385-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549386-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan is intentionally spinning things again. I would be delighted to discuss other topics with matt and Gilberto, like football or video games. Would love that discussion even if they are muslims (consort with all people). But if they want to discuss religion, I cannot agree that their Allah is real and that their muhamed is sinless. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549387-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Matt, Please don't misinterpret the Teaching of my religion. Are you saying I should respect the Iranian Islamic rulers for whatever they believe and for whatever they do to my fellow Iranian Baha'is, just because they are Muslims? Where have you found such interpretations. If you want to discuss certain Baha'i Teaching, please give a quote and then we will discuss it here. After all here is a Bahai-Study list. And I don't believe everything that Muslims believe is Islamic. Of course, out of respect, the Muslims have the right to believe in anything they like to believe, but I should not have any respect for their beliefs. Telling Muslims some facts about their religions is not disrespect either. On 31/12/2010 6:46 AM, Matt Haase wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. And just fyi, I think the Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, and I am a Muslim. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549253-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu mailto:leave-549253-953325..e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu mailto:ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai...@list.jccc..edu mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st http://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www..mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549381-51117.0c33fa62beb7a768b168eeaa91e9a...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3348 - Release Date: 12/30/10 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549394-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think ungodly really means atheist here. Thinking about the Persian word (ashrAr) means more to me as enemies. I think your quote below is out of context. I think we should look at all the quotes of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Guardian in this regard. Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? On 31/12/2010 7:46 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. The Writings go further than that. They say we should consort with the followers of all religions with joy and spirituality. I don't see much of that evident here of late. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org Unsubscribe: send a blank email tomailto:leave-549384-51117.0c33fa62beb7a768b168eeaa91e9a...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body toly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) -news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public -http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public -http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG -www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3348 - Release Date: 12/30/10 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549395-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, How about Hidden Words saying Treasure the companionship of the righteous and eschew all fellowship with the ungodly. I don't think ungodly really means atheist here. Thinking about the Persian word (ashrAr) means more to me as enemies. I think your quote below is out of context. I think we should look at all the quotes of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Guardian in this regard. Can you consort with Jihadist or Shia ruling clerics of Iran with spirit of joy and spirituality? It doesn't say *all* followers of all religions. Don C On 31/12/2010 7:46 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. The Writings go further than that. They say we should consort with the followers of all religions with joy and spirituality. I don't see much of that evident here of late. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as:mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org Unsubscribe: send a blank email tomailto:leave-549384-51117.0c33fa62beb7a768b168eeaa91e9a...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body toly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe:http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web -http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) -news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public -http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public -http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG -www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3348 - Release Date: 12/30/10 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:montana...@great-falls.net Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549395-556775.d8a8bdfdb6d02ff7e74a19a520225...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- - - - Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549397-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Matt should definitely answer for himself, but I thought your response was really a good example. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Please don't misinterpret the Teaching of my religion. I think that is a really good guideline for all sides. Are you saying I should respect the Iranian Islamic rulers for whatever they believe and for whatever they do to my fellow Iranian Baha'is, just because they are Muslims? Speaking for myself, you should feel free to make all kinds of specific criticisms of the actions of the Iranian government. But then when you characterize their negative practices as Islamic then you give the impression of painting all Muslims with the same brush. Where have you found such interpretations. If you want to discuss certain Baha'i Teaching, please give a quote and then we will discuss it here. I think that's also a good guideline for all sides. After all here is a Bahai-Study list. And I don't believe everything that Muslims believe is Islamic. I hope you can see the irony when you presume to define Islam for Muslims, but then ask please don't misinterpret the teaching of my religion. Maybe both categories of offensive statements can be avoided? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549398-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 31/12/2010 11:25 AM, Gilberto Simpson wrote: Speaking for myself, you should feel free to make all kinds of specific criticisms of the actions of the Iranian government. But then when you characterize their negative practices as Islamic then you give the impression of painting all Muslims with the same brush. Actually I characterize their practice as unIslamic but they are the ones who say they are real Muslims, and all their actions are Islamic and they bring their own Islamic Scriptures to prove that their actions are Islamic and they are following Sharia. Of course you as Sunni may not think of them as true Muslims and they do not consider you guys as true Muslims either. I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549399-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think respect applies to persons, not to ideas or belief systems or ideologies. If you critique a Christian or Islamic doctrine, belief, law, or teaching, it doesn't mean you are disrespecting the Christian or Muslim person. That's why you consort with people of all Faiths or no faith and you don't consider a Christian or an atheist najas. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. And just fyi, I think the Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, and I am a Muslim. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549400-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv What about the caravan raids? What about them. The Meccans had expelled the Muslims and expropriated their property. The caravans raids were attempts to address that wrong. It doesn't have to be the same exact property. As for Muslim breaking carrying this out during the four months when war was to be suspended, this was a rule that the Meccans had devised for their own benefit. Is there some reason the Muslims should have played by their rules? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549383-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549401-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. Well, what can I say. This is not the first time that you are wrong. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? List purpose? Excuse me? What is the purpose of a Baha'i studies list? To continue to hear from Gilberto that Islam is the last religion, Quran the last word, and Muhammad the last prophet of God, again and again, and again? Is that the list purpose. You know fully well that the list has ceased to be a Baha'i studies list for a long time. I'm just trying to show you and to show all that the list has been hijacked by Gilberto and his agenda. Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. It's regrettable that you find *my behaviour offensive. Ad hominems against me were not enough. Oh well. As long as Gilberto stays, I seriously doubt if there will ever be any issues related to Baha'i studies on this list. Again, this is not the first time that you are wrong, both with regards to Gilberto's intentions and agenda and with regards to my behaviour. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. Well, I tell you what: I will stick around. If you don't like it, *you* are free to leave. How do you like that? I have no paranoia towards Gilberto. All I'm saying is that there has been no real or serious study of the Baha'i Faith on this list since Gilberto has been around. Of, sorry, It's all my fault. I am the paranoid culprit throwing a temper tantrum. Best regards, Iskandar __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549403-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone who finds *my* behaviour offensive is free to leave. It won't surprise me, however, if Susan magically finds the tool to remove members and removes me first. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549404-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Not that I have any value for this list whatsoever, but if Iskandar is removed, please remove me too. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Anyone who finds *my* behaviour offensive is free to leave. It won't surprise me, however, if Susan magically finds the tool to remove members and removes me first. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv There is no hatred nor resentment on my part. Your behaviour suggests otherwise. The issues are the facts And what do these so-called facts have to do with the list purpose? Now that you know what the issues and the differences, etc., are, it is high time for you to honour the requests for you to remove yourself The demand he leave only substantiates his statement that your actions are based on resentment and hatred. But since you keep repeating this let me make this the following clear. I asked Gilberto to remove himself from this list a couple of a years okay after a dispute between the two of you in which I thought you were in the right. He was quite for awhile and then began to post again and but I have not seen him repeat the offensive behaviour Your behaviour however, has been offensive. My position is that Gilberto is now free to remain on this list and if you don't like it you are free to leave. if you do not have any other hidden intentions. That's all. No hard feelings. lakum deenokum va leeya deenee. Leave us alone, and let us wayward apostate Baha'is go to hell. Gilberto has never taken this attitude towards us. It is your own paranoia speaking here. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549404-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549405-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
*[Shakir 9:28]* O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
*[Pickthal 9:28]* O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
*[Yusufali 9:28]* O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty,
for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Jesus Christ told the Jews that if they had known Moses, they would have known or accepted Him (Jesus). And I believe both The Bab and Baha'u'llah reiterate the same notion in many instances. I think what you say, dear Firouz, is quite profound. Thanks. Best regards, Iskandar On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549407-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Assuming you are trying to restart our earlier conversation about
whether or not Islam/Bahai Faith has a concept of people being
unclean... here is the last e-mail which was sent out but never got a
response:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical
reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of its
revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not
literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that they
should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from
literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in Mecca.
It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then.
I wouln't use the word literal in the context but I think I
understand your argument. And there are definitely Muslims who read it
in the way you suggest. What I would suggest is that you connect this
to the the later verse
[9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds
uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are
unbelievers.
And compare it to the treatment of those with spiritual diseases
according to the Bahai Faith. In the Bahai faith covenant breakers are
said to have contagious spiritual diseases and are shunned. In Islam
in the early generation, the polytheists were kept out of Mecca. But
just as shunning covenat breakers doesn't mean you have to do extra
ablutions if you accidentally bump into a covenant breaker, the
Muslims don't have to renew their ablutions if they bump into a
polytheist because the polytheist isn't ritually unclean. But their
spiritual influence was to be decisively excluded from Mecca. In other
words, in both cases there is a spiritual condition, which doesn't
affect ritual purity, but it does imply a different treatment in the
world. (which explains why economic factors could be mentioned). Do
you understand?
[end quote]
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549409-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan and Iskandar, Alláh'u'Abhá We are all brothers, and beyond differences of opinion, is that spiritual bond. with all respect and love I say I think that your debate is losing its meaning. Please take some air, I do not think this is offensive or hurtful to anyone surely there are better ways to solve this problem. I'm not very fond of reading the messages on this list. But if Iskandar believes that the dynamics of the list is moving away from its original purpose, then it would be good to analyze if it is happening. Even if Gilberto is very polite and friendly, it is not right on this list - which should be devoted to the study of the Faith - is geared disproportionately towards validation of the Fe with respect to expectations of a Muslim. I do not think the solution is to expel Gilberto, but the moderator would do well not to allow litanic discussions on the relationship between the Faith and the Islam. I know that Baha'i academics, as yourselves, do not usually say such words in public, but I'm not academic or scholarly, then, tonight, I will pray so that the solution is provided. warmest, husa __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549410-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I am not interested in knowing what you do when/if you accidentally bump
into an atheist. I couldn't care less.
I am just reading what the text says. Nothing more and nothing less. And
it's not the kind of thing that looks like it will be the last word of God.
Your spin is good for you. And what 9:125 says does not take away anything
from a plain reading of najas, nor does it add to it or modify it.
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Gilberto Simpson
gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِنَّمَا الْمُشْرِكُونَ نَجَسٌ فَلَا
يَقْرَبُوا الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ بَعْدَ عَامِهِمْ هَٰذَا ۚ وَإِنْ
خِفْتُمْ
عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ إِنْ شَاءَ ۚ إِنَّ
اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {28}
[Shakir 9:28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean,
so
they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you
fear
poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely
Allah is Knowing Wise.
[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let
them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year.
If
ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve
you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let
them
not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye
fear
poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for
Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Assuming you are trying to restart our earlier conversation about
whether or not Islam/Bahai Faith has a concept of people being
unclean... here is the last e-mail which was sent out but never got a
response:
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D.
iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I do welcome and appreciate a spiritual and metaphorical
reading of that verse in Surah of Towbeh. I disagree that at the time of
its
revelation it was meant to be understood spiritually exclusively and not
literally. Immediately afterwards, it advises the believer Muslims that
they
should not have any concern about loss of trade, business, or income from
literally observing the law and not allowing the najas unbelievers in
Mecca.
It is obvious that a literal reading was required back then.
I wouln't use the word literal in the context but I think I
understand your argument. And there are definitely Muslims who read it
in the way you suggest. What I would suggest is that you connect this
to the the later verse
[9.125] And as for those in whose hearts is a disease, it adds
uncleanness to their uncleanness and they die while they are
unbelievers.
And compare it to the treatment of those with spiritual diseases
according to the Bahai Faith. In the Bahai faith covenant breakers are
said to have contagious spiritual diseases and are shunned. In Islam
in the early generation, the polytheists were kept out of Mecca. But
just as shunning covenat breakers doesn't mean you have to do extra
ablutions if you accidentally bump into a covenant breaker, the
Muslims don't have to renew their ablutions if they bump into a
polytheist because the polytheist isn't ritually unclean. But their
spiritual influence was to be decisively excluded from Mecca. In other
words, in both cases there is a spiritual condition, which doesn't
affect ritual purity, but it does imply a different treatment in the
world. (which explains why economic factors could be mentioned). Do
you understand?
[end quote]
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Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549412-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549413-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv You can call yourself whatever you want. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:55 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549414-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, such words have obviously an eschatological meaning, not institutional, collegial, or legal. http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El vie, 12/31/10, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com escribió: De: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: Stealth Jihad A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 12:55 am The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:husaynvil...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549412-237092.3be94ed465ba6b97bf89d88057a09...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549415-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Gilberto either doesn't understand, or pretends that he does not understand, or fails to admit that he doesn't get it. Either way, it does not matter. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:01 AM, HUSA husaynvil...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Gilberto, such words have obviously an eschatological meaning, not institutional, collegial, or legal. ** http://husaynvillar.blogspot.com/ http://husayntraduce.blogspot.com/ --- El *vie, 12/31/10, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com*escribió: De: Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: Stealth Jihad A: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Fecha: viernes, 31 de diciembre de 2010, 12:55 am The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.orghttp://e1.mc1132.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I think Baha'is are only true Muslims. So if Bahais are true Muslims what should Sunnis and Shias call themselves? __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549416-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian Demonization - Part 3 by Dr. Robert Dickson Crane The true facts of this “notorious” event were quite different, and the lessons to be learned from it were the exact opposite of Spencer’s conclusions. This Nakhla episode is recorded in great detail in the eight-volume Encyclopedia of Seerah, published in 1981 by the Seerah Foundation of London, with a foreward by Abdullah Naseeef, then President of King Abdulaziz University, beginning on page 567 of Volume One. Shortly before the first major war between the Quraysh from Mecca and the Muslims in Medina, known as the Battle of Badr in the Year 624, The Prophet sent out eight reconnaissance patrols to monitor the enemy’s movements. Four of them, known as sarayah (sing. sariyah), were not accompanied by the Prophet himself, and four, known as ghazawat (sing. ghazwah), were. Of the eight, with one exception, no-one on either side was either attacked or killed. During some of them peace treaties were made with local tribes. The single exception was the sariyah with twelve men led by Abdullah ibn Jahsh. He was carefully instructed to lead twelve men on a reconnaisance mission, not a military action. Instead, he attacked a Quraish caravan passing between Makkah and Ta’if and killed one man, Amr ibn al Hadrami, and captured two others. When he returned, the Prophet Muhammad condemned him and his actions, because he had been told strictly to avoid all hostile actions, especially since it was during one of the sacred months. Jahsh tried to explain that he thought it was the last day of Rajab. The Prophet then told him that, regardless, he had been ordered not to engage in fighting. Therefore, the Prophet refused to take any of the stolen goods, released the two prisoners, and paid blood money to the relatives of the deceased. Since this history of the Nakhla as recorded in the Sirah conforms with all the principles of the just war doctrine embodied in the Qur’an, one must question how one can call this the first Muslim raid of a caravan on Muhammad’s order and why one would term this the origin of war as the essence of Islam. [end quote] On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549413-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549417-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail -
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, that is not what I am saying. That is your knee-jerk reaction to what I am saying. Everything goes back to the Iranian Baha'is. I am sorry for what is happening to them, but it is not my fault. I speak out, I do what I can, but it is not my fault. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Matt, Please don't misinterpret the Teaching of my religion. Are you saying I should respect the Iranian Islamic rulers for whatever they believe and for whatever they do to my fellow Iranian Baha'is, just because they are Muslims? Where have you found such interpretations. If you want to discuss certain Baha'i Teaching, please give a quote and then we will discuss it here. After all here is a Bahai-Study list. And I don't believe everything that Muslims believe is Islamic. Of course, out of respect, the Muslims have the right to believe in anything they like to believe, but I should not have any respect for their beliefs. Telling Muslims some facts about their religions is not disrespect either. On 31/12/2010 6:46 AM, Matt Haase wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Yes, you should respect all people regardless of their religious affiliations. Even if you think we believe in stupid things, your religion says you have to respect people of all religions. It doesn't say, respect people of all religions, only if they agree with Baha'i teachings. And just fyi, I think the Baha'i Faith is a beautiful religion, and I am a Muslim. On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Firouz fir...@thai-bahais.org wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 30/12/2010 1:13 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. Dear Susan, Respecting Islam is not the same as respecting Muslims with whatever they believe as Islamic. I think these days what many Muslims believe is not the teaching of Islam, but mostly the teaching of some clergies or false Ahadith. Should we as Baha'is respect such Muslims with some distorted views of their religions. By not recognizing Baha'u'llah and this Day as the Day of God, Muslims have failed to be faithful to the Teachings of Holy Quran and Prophet Muhamad. What many Muslims believe today is some idle fancies and imagining. Best regards, Firouz __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549253-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.eduleave-549253-953325..e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai...@list.jccc..edu bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www..mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.nethttp://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:fir...@thai-bahais.org fir...@thai-bahais.org Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549381-51117.0c33fa62beb7a768b168eeaa91e9a...@list.jccc.edu leave-549381-51117.0c33fa62beb7a768b168eeaa91e9a...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3348 - Release Date: 12/30/10 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549394-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian Demonization - Part 3 by Dr. Robert Dickson Crane The true facts of this “notorious” event were quite different, and the lessons to be learned from it were the exact opposite of Spencer’s conclusions. This Nakhla episode is recorded in great detail in the eight-volume Encyclopedia of Seerah, published in 1981 by the Seerah Foundation of London, with a foreward by Abdullah Naseeef, then President of King Abdulaziz University, beginning on page 567 of Volume One. Shortly before the first major war between the Quraysh from Mecca and the Muslims in Medina, known as the Battle of Badr in the Year 624, The Prophet sent out eight reconnaissance patrols to monitor the enemy’s movements. Four of them, known as sarayah (sing. sariyah), were not accompanied by the Prophet himself, and four, known as ghazawat (sing. ghazwah), were. Of the eight, with one exception, no-one on either side was either attacked or killed. During some of them peace treaties were made with local tribes. The single exception was the sariyah with twelve men led by Abdullah ibn Jahsh. He was carefully instructed to lead twelve men on a reconnaisance mission, not a military action. Instead, he attacked a Quraish caravan passing between Makkah and Ta’if and killed one man, Amr ibn al Hadrami, and captured two others. When he returned, the Prophet Muhammad condemned him and his actions, because he had been told strictly to avoid all hostile actions, especially since it was during one of the sacred months. Jahsh tried to explain that he thought it was the last day of Rajab. The Prophet then told him that, regardless, he had been ordered not to engage in fighting. Therefore, the Prophet refused to take any of the stolen goods, released the two prisoners, and paid blood money to the relatives of the deceased. Since this history of the Nakhla as recorded in the Sirah conforms with all the principles of the just war doctrine embodied in the Qur’an, one must question how one can call this the first Muslim raid of a caravan on Muhammad’s order and why one would term this the origin of war as the essence of Islam. [end quote] On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully. __ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto: gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549413-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I don't really enjoy Islam-Bahai polemics either but if someone says something which seems disparaging, it is hard to let it by without comment. Maybe if the group could agree to a clear set of guidelines for conduct (no personal attacks, content should be relevant to the Bahai faith, etc.) that might make things better. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, HUSA husaynvil...@yahoo.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan and Iskandar, Alláh'u'Abhá We are all brothers, and beyond differences of opinion, is that spiritual bond. with all respect and love I say I think that your debate is losing its meaning. Please take some air, I do not think this is offensive or hurtful to anyone surely there are better ways to solve this problem. I'm not very fond of reading the messages on this list. But if Iskandar believes that the dynamics of the list is moving away from its original purpose, then it would be good to analyze if it is happening. Even if Gilberto is very polite and friendly, it is not right on this list - which should be devoted to the study of the Faith - is geared disproportionately towards validation of the Fe with respect to expectations of a Muslim. I do not think the solution is to expel Gilberto, but the moderator would do well not to allow litanic discussions on the relationship between the Faith and the Islam. I know that Baha'i academics, as yourselves, do not usually say such words in public, but I'm not academic or scholarly, then, tonight, I will pray so that the solution is provided. warmest, husa __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:gilberto.simp...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549410-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549422-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:26 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv I find the idea of reconnaissance missions, in 624, quite amusing to say the least. Since you like Ibn Ishaq, here's how he actually describes the event: The Messenger sent Abd Allah out with a detachment of eight men of the Emigrants without any Ansari, or Helpers, among them. He wrote a letter, but ordered him not to look at it until he had traveled for two days. Then he was to carry out what he was commanded to do. When Abd Allah opened the letter it said, 'March until you reach Nakhlah, between Mecca and Ta'if. Lie in wait for the Quraysh there, *and find out for us what they are doing.' *After traveling for two days and reading the letter, Abd Allah said, 'To hear is to obey.' He told his companions, 'The Prophet has commanded me to go to Nakhlah and lie in wait for the Quraysh.’ (Ibn Ishaq, page 286) So basically Ibn Ishaq agrees that Nakhlah was intended as a reconnaissance mission. On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv From “Fascist-Islamophobia”: A Case Study in Totalitarian Demonization - Part 3 by Dr. Robert Dickson Crane The true facts of this “notorious” event were quite different, and the lessons to be learned from it were the exact opposite of Spencer’s conclusions. This Nakhla episode is recorded in great detail in the eight-volume Encyclopedia of Seerah, published in 1981 by the Seerah Foundation of London, with a foreward by Abdullah Naseeef, then President of King Abdulaziz University, beginning on page 567 of Volume One. Shortly before the first major war between the Quraysh from Mecca and the Muslims in Medina, known as the Battle of Badr in the Year 624, The Prophet sent out eight reconnaissance patrols to monitor the enemy’s movements. Four of them, known as sarayah (sing. sariyah), were not accompanied by the Prophet himself, and four, known as ghazawat (sing. ghazwah), were. Of the eight, with one exception, no-one on either side was either attacked or killed. During some of them peace treaties were made with local tribes. The single exception was the sariyah with twelve men led by Abdullah ibn Jahsh. He was carefully instructed to lead twelve men on a reconnaisance mission, not a military action. Instead, he attacked a Quraish caravan passing between Makkah and Ta’if and killed one man, Amr ibn al Hadrami, and captured two others. When he returned, the Prophet Muhammad condemned him and his actions, because he had been told strictly to avoid all hostile actions, especially since it was during one of the sacred months. Jahsh tried to explain that he thought it was the last day of Rajab. The Prophet then told him that, regardless, he had been ordered not to engage in fighting. Therefore, the Prophet refused to take any of the stolen goods, released the two prisoners, and paid blood money to the relatives of the deceased. Since this history of the Nakhla as recorded in the Sirah conforms with all the principles of the just war doctrine embodied in the Qur’an, one must question how one can call this the first Muslim raid of a caravan on Muhammad’s order and why one would term this the origin of war as the essence of Islam. [end quote] On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Gilberto Simpson gilberto.simp...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, that's interesting. Someone from Atlanta steals your stuff. You can't find him. You just go and steal some stuff from a person who is traveling to or from Atlanta. First we aren't really talking about a modern metropolis so that's not the right analogy. Its a tribal society so its more like a particular street gang has a certain territory. They have your belongings and on top of that, it is likely that your belongings are actually part of the caravan and being sold elsewhere. So you interrupt the caravan to a) prevent your belongings from being traded and b) to recoup some of the loss. But, you don't know if you have the right guy. That's the point. You are just assuming. The four months are regarded in a special category in Islam. Nether did Muhammad abrogate the four months thing. Actually many of the pre-Islamic rite and rituals are carried over right into Islam. Besides, being deceitful is not terribly ethical behaviour. It's not clear what you are saying. Did the raids occur in Rajab or not? The Nakhlah raid was in Rajab and one of Abdullah ibn Jahsh's guys, Ukkash ibn Mihsan had shaved his head, deceitfully.
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is part of a McCarthyite attack on academia that has been going on for the last decade. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideosharetask=viewvideoItemid=70video_id=378 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549155-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549159-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Instead of making a blanket statement, try to analyze and discuss the points that are made and argued one by one. Here is a different news report: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_eu/eu_denmark_terror_arrests What a wonderful religion. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is part of a McCarthyite attack on academia that has been going on for the last decade. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideosharetask=viewvideoItemid=70video_id=378 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549155-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549159-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549160-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I completely agree with Iskandar. I carefully watched the entire video and found nothing in it against academics. I found it factual and consistent with everything we know about Jihadists. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv Instead of making a blanket statement, try to analyze and discuss the points that are made and argued one by one. Here is a different news report: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_eu/eu_denmark_terror_arrests What a wonderful religion. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv This is part of a McCarthyite attack on academia that has been going on for the last decade. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. iskandar@gmail.com wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://abnsat.com/abnnew/index.php?option=com_hwdvideosharetask=viewvideoItemid=70video_id=378 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:sman...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549155-738796.0f462312a2f7bdde70e0bbead78e3...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: leave-549159-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ahang.rabb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549160-1092882.b08fc62d23e686946d4de995cae13...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549161-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv What a wonderful religion. My religion is Baha'i which teaches us to respect Islam. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549164-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
