Re: REL APL-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 3:21 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote:

Bill,
The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a 
modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+.

 I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it 
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip

 Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task 
images that will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions 
of APL-11. On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 
for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a character 
set for Vt220 for the APL character set.

When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the 
available workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.

Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at 
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf
  and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf

The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ 
task from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this 
work back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If 
I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If 
anyone could help with that I’d really appreciate it!



According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for.
Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it
there.  I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone
else is interested.

bill

Re: REL APL-11

[Marc Howard via cctalk]

The only things I remember about APL were:

1. Square  divide symbol formed something that looked like a
domino (1 over 1) and was the random number generator.
2. Someone always finds a way to do a moderate sized task in one line of
code.  The ultimate obfuscated code contest.

Marc


On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:35 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote:
> > Stupid question time.  I last used APL in a class in 1975.  Back then
> you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.  How does
> one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Marc Howard
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org > wrote:
> >
> > On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >  I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I
> will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <
> http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
> > >
> > >  Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to
> run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+
> > > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and
> REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the
> > > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that
> modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
> > > The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also
> contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set.
> > >
> > > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to
> maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can
> > > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single
> precision version.
> > >
> > > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
> http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <
> http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
> > >   and the APL11 installation guide at
> http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf 
> > >
> > > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an
> I/D RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this
> work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today.
> If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded.
> If anyone could help with that I’d really appreciate it!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Mark
> >
> > Thanks Mark!
> >
> >
> > I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there
> from 1978-1983.  At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up
> over the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our
> PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the
> Fall of 1978 when I started.  We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL
> character set and keyboards.
> >
> > --
> > John H. Reinhardt
> >
> Marc,
>
>On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a
> table showing the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set.
> There are also instructions there on how to do it.  It's a combination of
> characters and backspaces.  Kinda tough on a video terminal but workable on
> a printer.
>
> --
> John H. Reinhardt
>
>

APL-11

[Mark Matlock via cctalk]

>According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for.
>Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it
>there.  I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone
>else is interested.
>
>bill
   The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I’m not sure if you can mount that with 
RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on 
HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. I looked for the original 
DOS-11 formatted DEC distribution tape but can’t find it at this time. Let me 
know if you need anything.

Mark

Re: REL APL-11

[Marc Howard via cctalk]

Stupid question time.  I last used APL in a class in 1975.  Back then you
needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.  How does one
input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?

Thanks,

Marc Howard

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >  I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will
> make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip <
> http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip>
> >
> >  Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run
> task images that will run under RSX11M or M+
> > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8
> versions of APL-11. On the disk are the
> > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified
> APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
> > The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a
> character set for Vt220 for the APL character set.
> >
> > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize
> the available workspace, On my system, I can
> > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision
> version.
> >
> > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at
> http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf <
> http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf>
> >   and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf
> 
> >
> > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D
> RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work
> back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I
> link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If
> anyone could help with that I’d really appreciate it!
> >
> > Best,
> > Mark
>
> Thanks Mark!
>
>
> I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from
> 1978-1983.  At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over
> the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70
> running RSTS/E.  Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of
> 1978 when I started.  We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character
> set and keyboards.
>
> --
> John H. Reinhardt
>
>

Re: APL-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 2:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote:




On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
 wrote:

On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?

APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/


Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the
name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX.

The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on
all three OSes.  It also appears to be more feature rich and supports
ASCII as well as APL terminals.

I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history
that has been lost.

bill


Has anyone ever figured out what happened to all the OMSI software?  The more I 
learn, the more I’m amazed.  I’d love to know where in their old building they 
had PDP-11’s squirreled away.  I spent a lot of time there in the 70’s and 
early 80’s, yet never realized they were doing all this.  The software I’d 
really love to get access to is their graphical version of Wumpus.



Somewhere around here I have OMSI Pascal.  I think I may even
still have the documentation. Didn't know what other languages
they did til I read the docs on APL-11 and saw that DEC had
contracted them to create it.

Don't imagine there is much chance of Mary Erichsen being around.
She was the contact listed for Pascal-2 from them in the Sourcebook.

bill

Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration - failure modes

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 3:43 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
 wrote:
> In restoring my PDP-8/s, diodes were the problem. Turns out they have
> steel leads that rust. Easy to see with a microscope.
> Badly rusted ones broke the glass body.

Good to know.  My PDP-8/S was stored indoors but my Straight-8 was in
a storage locker for years before I got it.

I have a stereo inspection microscope.  I'll definitely peer at the
diodes as part of the cleaning/evaluation process.

But I also have to line up a bunch of spare bulbs.  The leads on more
than half of the ones on my -8/S are fractured where they enter the
glass.

-ethan

Re: REL APL-11

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote:

Stupid question time.  I last used APL in a class in 1975.  Back then you 
needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.  How does one input 
or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment?

Thanks,

Marc Howard

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:

On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
>
> Bill,
>      I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it 
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip 
>
>      Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run 
task images that will run under RSX11M or M+
> In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 
versions of APL-11. On the disk are the
> Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified 
APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
> The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a 
character set for Vt220 for the APL character set.
>
>     When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize 
the available workspace, On my system, I can
> INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision 
version.
>
>     Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at 
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf 
>   and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf 

>
>     The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D 
RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back 
in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it 
with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could 
help with that I’d really appreciate it!
>
> Best,
> Mark

Thanks Mark!


I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 
1978-1983.  At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the 
summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running 
RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of 1978 when I 
started.  We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character set and 
keyboards.

-- 
John H. Reinhardt



Marc,

  On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a table 
showing the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set.  There are also 
instructions there on how to do it.  It's a combination of characters and 
backspaces.  Kinda tough on a video terminal but workable on a printer.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: REL APL-11

[John H. Reinhardt via cctalk]

On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:


Bill,
 I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it 
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip 

 Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task 
images that will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions 
of APL-11. On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 
for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a character 
set for Vt220 for the APL character set.

When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the 
available workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.

Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at 
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf 

  and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf 


The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ 
task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the 
mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with 
ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help 
with that I’d really appreciate it!

Best,
Mark


Thanks Mark!


I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 
1978-1983.  At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the 
summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running 
RSTS/E.  Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of 1978 when I 
started.  We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character set and 
keyboards.

--
John H. Reinhardt

Re: LegacyOS.org

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 4:07 PM, Peter Sjoberg via cctalk wrote:

I just stumbled over https://legacyos.org/ and checking here for what
you say about it only to find out that it seems like you missed it.

Have you all missed it or is it just not interesting ?



I saw it mentioned on LinkedIn yesterday and checked it out this
morning.  Very limited concept of Legacy OSes.

bill

LegacyOS.org

[Peter Sjoberg via cctalk]

I just stumbled over https://legacyos.org/ and checking here for what
you say about it only to find out that it seems like you missed it.

Have you all missed it or is it just not interesting ?

-- 
---
Techwiz, Peter Sjoberg GPG key (42DD) on keyserver & homepage
Key fingerprint =  EB81 3135 1636 576A DA83  826B 2455 0E88 42DD 
Homepage: http://www.techwiz.ca/~peters 
Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/henahadu/
Enigma: http://meinEnigma.com

Re: APL-11

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

I don't have an easy way to dump the ROMs at the moment.

TTFN - Guy

On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 13:49 -0600, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL
> > keyboard!  Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it
> > and will generate the correct character sequences.  ;-)
> 
> Cool!  When you get a chance, could you please dump the DECwriter III
> ROMs?
> 

Re: APL-11

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL
> keyboard!  Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it
> and will generate the correct character sequences.  ;-)
>

Cool!  When you get a chance, could you please dump the DECwriter III ROMs?

Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 1:48 PM Brendan McNeill via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending
> more time on our computers, if that were possible.  I have just completed
> the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in
> New Zealand.  You can view the restoration story and find appropriate
> resources here:  https://pdp-8.nz 
>

Very nicely done, and an excellent write-up.  That core memory repair was
amazing. It's interesting to read about a PDP-8 with such a high failure
rate -- I've personally worked on two straight-8 systems (one at LCM+L, and
one in my personal collection) where relatively few component failures were
found.  I wonder what accounts for the difference -- batches of diodes more
prone to failure, the environment the machines were stored in, or the
number of years of service...


>
> While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a
> Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off
> list.  I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this
> wonderful old machine with 4K of memory.
>

There's a 4K LISP as well, though it's a pseudo-LISP-1.5 dialect so it's a
bit different.

- Josh



>
> --//
> bren...@mcneill.co.nz
> +64 21 881 883
>
>
>
>
>

Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration - failure modes

[Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk]

On 3/30/2020 12:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote:

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 1:48 PM Brendan McNeill via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending
more time on our computers, if that were possible.  I have just completed
the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in
New Zealand.  You can view the restoration story and find appropriate
resources here:  https://pdp-8.nz 


Very nicely done, and an excellent write-up.  That core memory repair was
amazing. It's interesting to read about a PDP-8 with such a high failure
rate -- I've personally worked on two straight-8 systems (one at LCM+L, and
one in my personal collection) where relatively few component failures were
found.  I wonder what accounts for the difference -- batches of diodes more
prone to failure, the environment the machines were stored in, or the
number of years of service...



While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a
Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off
list.  I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this
wonderful old machine with 4K of memory.


There's a 4K LISP as well, though it's a pseudo-LISP-1.5 dialect so it's a
bit different.

- Josh


In restoring my PDP-8/s, diodes were the problem. Turns out they have 
steel leads that rust. Easy to see with a microscope.

Badly rusted ones broke the glass body.

I had to replace more than 200. Most turned into ~600 Ohm resistors, 
some open circuit. I'm sure I'm going to have to
replace all of them over time. So how (and where) the machine was stored 
probably plays a big part in it's reliability.


Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

REL APL-11

[Mark Matlock via cctalk]

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:58:46 -0400
> From: Bill Gunshannon  >
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>   mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
> Subject: APL-11
> Message-ID:
>   
>   
> >
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> Haven't given up on DIBOL.  May try installing the RT-11 version and
> see if it runs.
> 
> But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head.  :-)
> 
> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?  Manual claims it
> runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
> my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
> out of curiosity) in more than two decades.

Bill,
I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it 
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip 

Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task 
images that will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions 
of APL-11. On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 
for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a character 
set for Vt220 for the APL character set.

   When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the 
available workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.

   Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at 
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf 

 and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf 


   The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task 
are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the 
mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with 
ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help 
with that I’d really appreciate it!

Best,
Mark

> 
> I have the source to something called APL-11 for Unix but it is
> not the same thing.  Actually, not even close.  :-)
> 
> Would love to see a few pointers.
> 
> Oh, and in case anyone is curious about my endeavors
> The SIMH system I am  using now is based on the 11/70 and was built
> with only 2M of memory.  Why you would do that under SIMH where there
> is really no memory constraint at all, I can not fathom.  I used to
> have a bunch of 11/44's and that has been my favorite since my original
> 11/24 system died long, long ago./  I am going to configure a SIMH
> System using the 11/44 as my model and then reinstall everything in
> order to have a really good system for playing with this stuff.
> 
> Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from
> the sourcebooks.  A lot of nice software that should have been saved
> for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost.
> 
> bill

REL APL-11

[Mark Matlock via cctalk]

Bill,
   The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a 
modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+.

I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it 
available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip

Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task 
images that will run under RSX11M or M+
In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions 
of APL-11. On the disk are the
Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 
for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased
The workspace (.BXWA from ~3 to ~6 bytes). It also contains a character 
set for Vt220 for the APL character set.

   When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the 
available workspace, On my system, I can
INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version.

   Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at 
http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf
 and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf

   The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task 
from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work 
back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If I 
link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If 
anyone could help with that I’d really appreciate it!

Best,
Mark

Re: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment)

[geneb via cctalk]

On Mon, 30 Mar 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:


I was preparing to make the leap and buy my first personal computer--a
PDP-8/E back in the day.   The attraction was not just the low price of
around $5000, but the fact that there was FORTRAN available for it.  DEC
made a big deal of that in their promotions.

Wrote an emulator for it (in FORTRAN, of course) and still have my copy
of Introduction to Programming".  Never got the machine, however--other
things got in the way.

I just finished uploading this: 
https://archive.org/details/fortrancodingform


:)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: H7874 power supply

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 03/30/2020 11:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:





Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired 
logic level.  PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do 
power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't.  Do VAXen have power fail 
interrupt?  If yes, does anyone actually use it?


The VAX 11/780 absolutely had power fail, and it DID work.  
You could just walk up to the CPU and turn the key to 
standby, and it would power down everything but the memory.  
When you turned the key back to on, it would power up, load 
microcode and resume the paused system image VERY smoothly.
You could also power down the Unibus box, and it would 
recover all the devices and resume

when you turned it back on.
Anything tasks that ran off Massbus peripherals could keep 
running while the Unibus was off.
I did this quite often while swapping I/O devices and such 
after device drivers became loadable.


Jon

Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> > RobI'd say 3.3 nF. M is probably a voltage rating.
> Odd for it to be split. I could just barely imagine that from mechanical 
> stress. Or perhaps severe overvoltage. Where is this part used?
> paul


Tolerance rating -- +/- 20%
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/capacitors/capacitor-codes-markings.php

Will

Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 30, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have just opened up one of my other VLC machines. The part in question is
> marked
> 
> .0033M
> Z5U
> 
> I guess this means a 3.3nF capacitor? Or will it mean 3.3uF?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob

I'd say 3.3 nF.  M is probably a voltage rating.

Odd for it to be split.  I could just barely imagine that from mechanical 
stress.  Or perhaps severe overvoltage.  Where is this part used?

paul

Re: APL-11

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? 
>> APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version
>> http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/
> 
> Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the
> name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX.
> 
> The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on
> all three OSes.  It also appears to be more feature rich and supports
> ASCII as well as APL terminals.
> 
> I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history
> that has been lost.
> 
> bill

Has anyone ever figured out what happened to all the OMSI software?  The more I 
learn, the more I’m amazed.  I’d love to know where in their old building they 
had PDP-11’s squirreled away.  I spent a lot of time there in the 70’s and 
early 80’s, yet never realized they were doing all this.  The software I’d 
really love to get access to is their graphical version of Wumpus.

Zane

RE: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via
> cctalk
> Sent: 30 March 2020 07:31
> To: 'Peter Coghlan' ; 'General Discussion:
On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts' 
> Subject: RE: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor
> 
> I don't know, but thanks for pointing out that it might not be a
capacitor.
> I have two more VLCs so I will open them up and see what the markings are,
> the markings on this one are almost illegible.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Peter
> > Coghlan
> via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 30 March 2020 00:56
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> > Subject: Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor
> >
> > >
> > > Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I
> > > would check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C
> > > from one of my VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked
> > > capacitor and some other high ESR ones, so I will replace those.
> > > However, I also noticed a ceramic disk capacitor that appears to be
> > > split all around the edge. Is that a known failure mode?
> > >
> >
> > Is it definately a capacitor?
> >
> > I've had some damaged surge arrestors / MOVs / VDRs that look very
> > similar
> to
> > ceramic disc capacitors.


I have just opened up one of my other VLC machines. The part in question is
marked

.0033M
Z5U

I guess this means a 3.3nF capacitor? Or will it mean 3.3uF?

Thanks

Rob

> >
> > Regards,
> > Peter Coghlan.

Re: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I was preparing to make the leap and buy my first personal computer--a
PDP-8/E back in the day.   The attraction was not just the low price of
around $5000, but the fact that there was FORTRAN available for it.  DEC
made a big deal of that in their promotions.

Wrote an emulator for it (in FORTRAN, of course) and still have my copy
of Introduction to Programming".  Never got the machine, however--other
things got in the way.

I still routinely deal with FORTRAN (capitalize the name for dialects
earlier than F90).   It's still hard to beat for a portable, fast
mathematical HLL.  The big competitor back in the day from Europe,
Algol, appears to have disappeared from collective consciousness.

--Chuck

Re: APL-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? 


APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/


Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the
name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX.

The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on
all three OSes.  It also appears to be more feature rich and supports
ASCII as well as APL terminals.

I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history
that has been lost.

bill

Re: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment)

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

Since we are all at home exchanging stories, I thought I would regale 
you with my best punch card one:


My first job out of school was at Bell Canada in  Downtown Toronto.

I was trained as an FE on their Univac 418 II systems that ran a 
Canada-wide store-and-forward MSDS - Message Switching Data Service 
(MSDS - means something else now!)  I also got trained on the PDP11, 
then PDP8, and Interdata 50.


The year was 1972 or '73 I think.

Since there was very little operating to do with a real-time system, we 
didn't have operators and did all the operating ourselves.  One system 
ran H23 (it had to be shutdown for maintenance over midnight because the 
system would crash if the time went backwards after midnight), the 
other, use by stockbrokers and the T. Eaton Company started at 0600 and 
was turned down at 2100.


Being critical real time (after all, it fed about a thousand 110 baud 
teletypes across Canada :-) ) it would crash sometimes due to racing 
conditions that had not been forecast.  Instead of re-assembling the 
system (about four hours), the programmers would issue us with PARLO 
(PARameter LOader) cards to make patches after we loaded the enterprise 
code and before we started it.  This fixed the bugs by binary changes.


One morning, I was on duty as the 0600 system crashed immediately after 
I started it.  As trained, I switched all the peripherals over to the 
backup machine and loaded the program on there, carrying the PARLO cards 
over and running them before I started that system. Same crash happened, 
while the panic dump was still running between the first computer and 
the Uniservo VI C.


Lots more attempts happened, including running heavy cables across the 
floor to patch in spares that were not on the transfer switch, until 
first, second, and finally third level managers were standing behind me 
as I tried new things.  "A 20-year old does not need this kind of 
stress", I thought!


Upper management wanted to 'get somebody else' to work the computer by 
my boss told me to stand fast.  Suddenly, I had an idea.  We had an old 
IBM 028 punch sitting at the back of the room.


"Go and copy these PARLO cards" I said to the programmer.  She scowled 
at being told what to do by this young kid, especially since she was 
management and I was not. But as nobody had any better ideas the 
managers told her to do it.


Thankfully, my idea that the PARLO cards were worn thin so that the 
photo readers could see holes where there were not, was accurate. The 
028 used fingers to feel for the holes and so made a perfect copy!


After that they instituted a policy of changing the PARLO cards or 
re-assembling on a regular basis!


The attachment is a picture of where this happened.

cheers,

Nigel Johnson








On 30/03/2020 11:41, Diane Bruce wrote:

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce  wrote:


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk <

cctalk@classiccmp.org>

wrote:


...

...

A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73
to 80
with an index? Not very many. :-(

Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they 
were

later bug fixes.

The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the
company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards
from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about
putting them back exactly in order... So when the boss, who was sure he
And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read 
them right?


semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned 
a lot

about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great
businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess).
The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of 
that

back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible
coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into 
spaghetti

code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped.


Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I
remember.


Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were
for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between
the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly... But pointers in C 
that

Yep. yep.


I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison...

Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very
appreciated.


Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote
that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in.

Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too.


Warner

Diane



--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. 

Re: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration)

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

Since we are all at home exchanging stories, I thought I would regale 
you with my best punch card one:


My first job out of school was at Bell Canada in  Downtown Toronto.

I was trained as an FE on their Univac 418 II systems that ran a 
Canada-wide store-and-forward MSDS - Message Switching Data Service 
(MSDS - means something else now!)  I also got trained on the PDP11, 
then PDP8, and Interdata 50.


The year was 1972 or '73 I think.

Since there was very little operating to do with a real-time system, we 
didn't have operators and did all the operating ourselves.  One system 
ran H23 (it had to be shutdown for maintenance over midnight because the 
system would crash if the time went backwards after midnight), the 
other, use by stockbrokers and the T. Eaton Company started at 0600 and 
was turned down at 2100.


Being critical real time (after all, it fed about a thousand 110 baud 
teletypes across Canada :-) ) it would crash sometimes due to racing 
conditions that had not been forecast.  Instead of re-assembling the 
system (about four hours), the programmers would issue us with PARLO 
(PARameter LOader) cards to make patches after we loaded the enterprise 
code and before we started it.  This fixed the bugs by binary changes.


One morning, I was on duty as the 0600 system crashed immediately after 
I started it.  As trained, I switched all the peripherals over to the 
backup machine and loaded the program on there, carrying the PARLO cards 
over and running them before I started that system.  Same crash 
happened, while the panic dump was still running between the first 
computer and the Uniservo VI C.


Lots more attempts happened, including running heavy cables across the 
floor to patch in spares that were not on the transfer switch, until 
first, second, and finally third level managers were standing behind me 
as I tried new things.  "A 20-year old does not need this kind of 
stress", I thought!


Upper management wanted to 'get somebody else' to work the computer by 
my boss told me to stand fast.  Suddenly, I had an idea.  We had an old 
IBM 028 punch sitting at the back of the room.


"Go and copy these PARLO cards" I said to the programmer.  She scowled 
at being told what to do by this young kid, especially since she was 
management and I was not. But as nobody had any better ideas the 
managers told her to do it.


Thankfully, my idea that the PARLO cards were worn thin so that the 
photo readers could see holes where there were not, was accurate.  The 
028 used fingers to feel for the holes and so made a perfect copy!


After that they instituted a policy of changing the PARLO cards or 
re-assembling on a regular basis!


The attachment is a picture of where this happened.

cheers,

Nigel Johnson








On 30/03/2020 11:41, Diane Bruce wrote:

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce  wrote:


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk <

cctalk@classiccmp.org>

wrote:


...

...

A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73
to 80
with an index? Not very many. :-(


Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were
later bug fixes.

The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the
company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards
from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about
putting them back exactly in order...  So when the boss, who was sure he

And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read them right?


semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot
about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great
businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess).

The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of that
back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible
coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into spaghetti
code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped.


Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I
remember.


Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were
for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between
the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly...  But pointers in C that

Yep. yep.


I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison...

Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very
appreciated.


Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote
that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in.

Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too.


Warner

Diane


 


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. 

Re: H7874 power supply

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

Vectoring through 24 was very important back in the core memory days 
when the memory would still be there after a power failure and you 
wnated the system to keep running, as was our Ontario Bellboy paging 
controller.


cheers,

Nigel



On 30/03/2020 12:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:



On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk 
 wrote:


Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work.
For my VAX my notes say it didn't.

  A VAX would certainly be harder.  You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK 
signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses.

Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired 
logic level.  PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do 
power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't.  Do VAXen have power fail 
interrupt?  If yes, does anyone actually use it?

paul


 


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me 
to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number 
of system administrators along the way.
   Nigel Johnson 


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message

Re: H7874 power supply

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work.
>> For my VAX my notes say it didn't.
> 
>  A VAX would certainly be harder.  You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK 
> signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses.

Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired 
logic level.  PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do 
power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't.  Do VAXen have power fail 
interrupt?  If yes, does anyone actually use it?

paul

Re: APL-11

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? 


APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/

Re: APL-11

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 11:07 -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> wrote:
> > 
> > Haven't given up on DIBOL.  May try installing the RT-11 version
> > and
> > see if it runs.
> > 
> > But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head.  :-)
> > 
> > Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?  Manual claims it
> > runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
> > my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
> > out of curiosity) in more than two decades.
> 
> Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for
> it!
> e.g. just overlays for the keyboard.

I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL
keyboard!  Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it
and will generate the correct character sequences.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy

Re: APL-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 3/30/20 11:07 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:


Haven't given up on DIBOL.  May try installing the RT-11 version and
see if it runs.

But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head.  :-)

Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?  Manual claims it
runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
out of curiosity) in more than two decades.


Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for it!
e.g. just overlays for the keyboard.


Actually, it supports using a standard ASCII keyboard as well as
Tek 4013 terminals.  I used other APL systems that did likewise,
usually by using di-graphs.



bill

RE: H7874 power supply

[Robert Armstrong via cctalk]

>Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work.
> For my VAX my notes say it didn't.

  A VAX would certainly be harder.  You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK 
signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses.  It'd be really 
handy to find even a schematic for the backplane so we could see which signals 
are actually connected, but I did some searching and came up with nothing.

  Oh, and I did try to power up the H7874 on the bench for testing, but it 
wouldn't turn on there either.  It probably has a minimum load requirement, or 
it needs some signal from the backplane to turn on.  FWIW, the R400x does not 
have a power switch - the only way to turn it on or off is thru the H7874, 
either by the circuit breaker or the power control bus.  The R400x also has 
several large power resistors on the M7493 SCSI connector module; those may be 
there to provide a minimum load for the power supply.  

Bob

Re: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration)

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > ...
...
> >
> > A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73
> > to 80
> > with an index? Not very many. :-(
> >
> 
> Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were
> later bug fixes.
> 
> The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the
> company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards
> from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about
> putting them back exactly in order...  So when the boss, who was sure he

And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read them right?

> semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot
> about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great
> businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess).

The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of that
back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible
coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into spaghetti
code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped.

> > Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I
> > remember.
> >
> 
> Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were
> for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between
> the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly...  But pointers in C that

Yep. yep.

> I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison...

Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very
appreciated.

> 
> Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote
> that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in.

Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too.

> 
> Warner

Diane
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> ...
> >
> > He was lucky the card deck was in order. One of my first jobs was to read
> > in old, horrible FORTRAN IV from punch card, then check it against a
> > listing the boss had and edit to match... This was the same place we
> wrote
>
> A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73
> to 80
> with an index? Not very many. :-(
>

Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were
later bug fixes.

The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the
company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards
from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about
putting them back exactly in order...  So when the boss, who was sure he
did a program just like that back "when he was running this place out of my
barn," discovered things weren't perfect it fell to me to 'fix' it because
I was minimum wage high school kid help... No totally dropped decks, at
least, and once I got them read into the computer I could edit them with a
semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot
about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great
businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess).


> > malloc for FORTRAN and passed around all kinds of crazy data structures
> > that offset into the malloc arena so it would run on both the pdp-11 and
> > the vax...
>
> Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I
> remember.
>

Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were
for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between
the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly...  But pointers in C that
I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison...
Thankfully none of the boss' code was like this, and it got left behind
when they moved to this code base.


> I also remember the implementation of Fortran on the university computer
> one could abuse the assigned goto and have it execute your own assembler
> code on the fly.  ;)
>

Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote
that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in.

Warner


> >
> > Warner
> >
>
> Diane
> --
> - d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
>

Re: APL-11

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Haven't given up on DIBOL.  May try installing the RT-11 version and
> see if it runs.
> 
> But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head.  :-)
> 
> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?  Manual claims it
> runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
> my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
> out of curiosity) in more than two decades.

Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for it!
e.g. just overlays for the keyboard.

I remember interfacing our universities APL interpreter with some glue assembler
to the file system adding a new T bar. ;)

> 
> Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from
> the sourcebooks.  A lot of nice software that should have been saved
> for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost.

:-(

> 
> bill

Diane
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

APL-11

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Haven't given up on DIBOL.  May try installing the RT-11 version and
see if it runs.

But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head.  :-)

Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11?  Manual claims it
runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from
my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs
out of curiosity) in more than two decades.

I have the source to something called APL-11 for Unix but it is
not the same thing.  Actually, not even close.  :-)

Would love to see a few pointers.

Oh, and in case anyone is curious about my endeavors
The SIMH system I am  using now is based on the 11/70 and was built
with only 2M of memory.  Why you would do that under SIMH where there
is really no memory constraint at all, I can not fathom.  I used to
have a bunch of 11/44's and that has been my favorite since my original
11/24 system died long, long ago./  I am going to configure a SIMH
System using the 11/44 as my model and then reinstall everything in
order to have a really good system for playing with this stuff.

Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from
the sourcebooks.  A lot of nice software that should have been saved
for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost.

bill

Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
...
> 
> He was lucky the card deck was in order. One of my first jobs was to read
> in old, horrible FORTRAN IV from punch card, then check it against a
> listing the boss had and edit to match... This was the same place we wrote

A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 to 80
with an index? Not very many. :-(

> malloc for FORTRAN and passed around all kinds of crazy data structures
> that offset into the malloc arena so it would run on both the pdp-11 and
> the vax...

Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I remember.

I also remember the implementation of Fortran on the university computer
one could abuse the assigned goto and have it execute your own assembler
code on the fly.  ;)

> 
> Warner
> 

Diane
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

RE: H7874 power supply

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctech  On Behalf Of Robert
> Armstrong via cctech
> Sent: 29 March 2020 23:15
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'
> ; 'Maciej W. Rozycki' 
> Subject: RE: H7874 power supply
> 
>   Remembering that I have the R400x enclosure and I'm only interested in
> powering disk drives - I looked up the specs for the RF7x drives, and they 
> all use
> about 1.5A at 5V and 2.5-3A operating at 12V.  There's a 5-6A spinup surge on
> the 12V supply, but as long as you spin them up in sequence you can probably
> gloss over that.  Anyway, I have 4xRF7x drives and two SCSI drives, so figure
> maybe 20A at 12V and 10A at 5V.  That's entirely doable with an ATX supply.
> 
>   The fans, annoyingly, are 24VDC so those would either have to be replaced
> with 12V fans or I'd have to kludge up an extra 24V supply.
> 
>   My next step was to figure out the pinout of the connectors on the back of 
> the
> H7874.  The big, high current, pins aren't marked anywhere inside the H7874
> that I could find but, conveniently, they ARE marked on the R400x backplane.
> There are also a couple of high density connectors sandwiched in between the
> power pins; the lower one doesn't appear to be used but the upper one has a
> few connections.  From looking at the backplane it appears that only four pins
> in the upper connector are actually connected.  That's a guess though, because
> I can't see that back side of the backplane.
> 
>   I needed to see more of the backplane to figure out where these four
> connections went, so I removed all the drives from the R400x.  Then, on a
> whim, I stuck the H7874 back in there and tried to power it up.  It works!  It
> appears that I don't have a bad power supply after all; I have a bad drive
> somewhere.  Don't I feel silly :)
> 

I would just say that you must be hugely relieved! Looks like for this 
enclosure an ATX supply could well work. For my VAX my notes say it didn't. It 
would still be worth checking the ESR on the electrolytic capacitors and 
replacing any suspect ones while you are at it.


>   So I don't need to fool with the ATX supply after all, or at least not 
> until my PS
> really does die.  Thanks for the help, and sorry for the false alarm.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:05 PM
> To: b...@jfcl.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'; 'Maciej W. Rozycki'
> Cc: r...@jarratt.me.uk
> Subject: RE: H7874 power supply
> 
> I have some notes I made about trying a PC PSU, I don't think it really 
> worked,
> there are signals to indicate power OK and perhaps others. But perhaps a more
> concerted effort might yield something that could work.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctech  On Behalf Of Robert
> > Armstrong via cctech
> > Sent: 29 March 2020 19:15
> > To: 'Maciej W. Rozycki' ; 'General Discussion:
> > On- Topic Posts' 
> > Cc: r...@jarratt.me.uk
> > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply
> >
> > >Maciej W. Rozycki  wrote:
> > >numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some
> > >leaking
> >
> >   Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too.
> >
> >   What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power
> > supply?  I don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down,
> > but as I understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply.  That's not a
> > problem for an ATX supply, and it would have all the required output
> > voltages.  You'd have to run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and
> > you'd lose the power control bus feature, but that's not a show stopper.
> >
> >   Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I
> > believe I only need
> > +12 and +5.  I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case.  I
> > +wonder how
> > much current I really need for the drives?  I should look that up and
> > I might be able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job.
> >
> > Thanks again,
> > Bob

Re: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

ok  that  is  the  larger  ones... we  are  trying  to  fill a  whole in a  
display
we  are seeking the  20 meg  iss  graves  10 platter.    the  40 meg that looks 
 the  same  is  ok  too   for a  visual...
If  anyone  was  one  let  us  know... it   completes a museum display   
even  better  yet  wold  e    the HP  branded  version of   it the  2883    or 
lesser   2884  or  the  40 meg  2888 

thank s   Ed#    smecc
In a message dated 3/30/2020 3:25:43 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
p.gebha...@ymail.com writes:

Hi Ed,

this exerciser supports the ISS 7330-type of drives, which come with capacities 
of 100MBytes and 200MBytes on 10-platter-placks (they are IBM-3336 equivalents).

Best regards,
Pierre

-
http://www.digitalheritage.de






Am Montag, 30. März 2020, 08:49:23 MESZ hat ED SHARPE via cctalk 
 Folgendes geschrieben: 





  I mean 
which  iss  drive  the  10 platter pack.  the  20 meg one?   Ed# 




In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

which  iss  drive  the  10 plotter  20 meg one?   Ed#
In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the 
> document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an 
> answer.

private msg sent
sorry, things have been crazy

Re: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

Hi Ed,

this exerciser supports the ISS 7330-type of drives, which come with capacities 
of 100MBytes and 200MBytes on 10-platter-placks (they are IBM-3336 equivalents).

Best regards,
Pierre

-
http://www.digitalheritage.de






Am Montag, 30. März 2020, 08:49:23 MESZ hat ED SHARPE via cctalk 
 Folgendes geschrieben: 





  I mean 
which  iss  drive  the  10 platter pack.  the  20 meg one?   Ed# 




In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

which  iss  drive  the  10 plotter  20 meg one?   Ed#
In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the 
> document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an 
> answer.

private msg sent
sorry, things have been crazy

Re: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

  I mean 
 which  iss  drive  the  10 platter pack.  the  20 meg one?   Ed# 




In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

which  iss  drive  the  10 plotter  20 meg one?   Ed#
In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the 
> document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an 
> answer.

private msg sent
sorry, things have been crazy

RE: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

I don't know, but thanks for pointing out that it might not be a capacitor.
I have two more VLCs so I will open them up and see what the markings are,
the markings on this one are almost illegible.

Thanks

Rob

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 30 March 2020 00:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

> Subject: Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor
> 
> >
> > Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I
> > would check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C from
> > one of my VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked capacitor and
> > some other high ESR ones, so I will replace those. However, I also
> > noticed a ceramic disk capacitor that appears to be split all around
> > the edge. Is that a known failure mode?
> >
> 
> Is it definately a capacitor?
> 
> I've had some damaged surge arrestors / MOVs / VDRs that look very similar
to
> ceramic disc capacitors.
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.