Re: IBM PC Network
On 5/22/21 7:12 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when introduced to it after using Ethernet at UIUC. Having to learn CPI-C, LU-2, LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications Manager/2 on OS/2 to emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended to bury such information, and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it did or if it connected to a FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire to go review it). Given the things that I play with, I'd like to know more. But I suspect that this isn't the forum. When the network worked, it was fine, of course, but it seemed every week someone would do something that would switch a TR card in a PC to 4Mb, and the entire network would die, "beaconing" for an hour while the IT folks ran around trying to figure out where the issue lie. And, it was an office building, so not a ton of noise... My first post high school computer job was help desk support for my local city government. There were 500 or more computers and many of them were on Token Ring. -- The migration to Ethernet was under way. -- The way that the network team dealt with beaconing was 1) multiple independent rings, and 2) disconnecting wings / floors of buildings to quickly isolate things. It's entirely different to have a total network failure vs a floor / wing that can't use the network. Seeing the 370 (3090, as I recall, nice imposing looking machine) was impressive, and I will admit working in a firm with an IBM 370 architecture machine gave me a new and profound appreciation for the staying power of the mainframe (I started the job thinking, as all recently minted IT professionals no doubt think, that the mainframe was soon to be discarded in favor of UNIX and potentially the newly arrived Linux OS. That job changed my mind). *nod* I've got more of an affinity for mainframes than many friends. One of the things I play with -- which I was eluding to above -- is an IBM P/390-E. So I've spent some time with CM/2, MPTS, and the likes. I've currently got my P/390-E working via TCP/IP over 802.2 LLC/SNAP via a virtual OS/2 Warp 4 system routing to TCP/IP over Ethernet II. -- Your first statement really did trigger a lot of things in the realm that I play in. But, I never grew fond of TR, and as soon as IBM supported Ethernet, I was happy. (Plus, there was no TR driver in Linux initially, and we all desperately wanted to run Linux on our PCs to run a real OS instead of Win3.1 or OS/2. OS/2 was nice, to be fair, but it was not UNIX...) ~chuckle~ I started my Linux networking on 10Base2 and PPP back in the 2.0 days. I don't know when Token Ring was added to the Linux kernel. It was removed in the early 5.4, I think. -- Sadly, I don't think that Linux can be the multi-network router that I want. I suspect that honor is going to go to NetWare 4.x or maybe 5.x. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Link Rot
I've always thought that robots.txt would the be interesting stuff that should be archived, perhaps it could be behind a paywall. There's no law against archiving it other then subnets being blocked, which is easily bypassed as matt cutts wrote a blog post on silently spidering content. Also you can use the cloud proxies which call themselves sdwan. Yacy and other p2p web crawlers are another way to go. On Sat, May 22, 2021, 11:28 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 5/22/21 7:41 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works > > > > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the > >> article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% > >> Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of > articles > >> but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc > >> > https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking > > I've said it before--putting information on the web is like writing in > sand. Thank heavens for the Wayback machine (which is why I support > Brewster's efforts). > > However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has apparently > never been archived and many vendor's support pages have had robots.txt > files preventing them from being archived. > Still, it's better than nothing and I appreciate it. Were it more > complete, I might not have to spend so much time reverse-engineering > software. > > Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty > sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support > material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom line. > > The New HP Way. > > A nasty trend is adware sites are simply quoting text from a large > number of now defunct pages; go to the link and you get the > "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE THE ONE BILLIONTH VISITOR!" page. Run, do not > walk away. > > A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish > Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of text. > > --Chuck >
Re: IBM PC Network
On 5/22/21 6:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) Nor have I. BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance than 10 Mbit Ethernet. I've heard tell that Token Ring worked MUCH better on extremely busy networks. Purportedly Ethernet starts having problems when there are more and more systems and / or a higher and higher percentage of utilization is happening. I seem to remember that Ethernet had problems starting about 80% utilization while Token Ring could easily handle 95% utilization or higher. plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit. Sure they did. You can find commercial Token Ring cards that support, 4 Mbps, 16 Mbps, /and/ *100* Mbps. I see them on eBay monthly. I heard that IBM developed 1,000 Mbps / 1 Gbps Token Ring in the lab. But that no commercial products were ever made. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
Grant and et al, I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago up to about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer equipment. Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The whole works. I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. i have been selling off everything that I own and I have been using the funds to drive all around the country full filling my bucket list. Please help me by taking everything off my hands? I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I want to see go to a good home instead of hitting the trash. Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and Ethernet ISA cards. What info do you need? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 5/22/2021 12:03 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: Hi Rich, On 5/20/21 8:21 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: I have ISA ethernet and Arcnet boards. I'd be interested in knowing more about your ARCnet boards. Of course, that is if Randy doesn't end up using them.
RE: SCSI2SD
I've also used a version 5.1 SCSI2SD on a VAXstation 4000/60 without problem.
RE: Link Rot
> However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has > apparently Yes, who would have ever thought FTPs would be dropping like flies though? Web sites? Sure. But FTP - how else were you going to distribute all those drivers, patches, etc... Short answer just don't bother doing it > Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty > sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support > material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom > line. > > The New HP Way. No, the new HP way is to make it very hard to find information (if it exists) then move it behind a pay wall and finally get rid of it... I've run into this a few times with firmware that used to be freely available from Compaq FTP now being behind a "support contract needed" pay wall... The one company that gets kudos for maintaining their support site is Adaptec - after multiple mergers and buyouts you can still get drivers and manuals for products as old as the 1540... Too bad there is no easy way to archive their site... > A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish > Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of > text. You can't monetize a page of text as easily as you can a video view on YouTube Luckily so far I have never ever had to watch one of these videos for info that can be gleaned from text. Other videos, such as techniques on soldering, are a different story as those skills cannot be taught simply by reading about them I continue to have my own personal archive of pages and YouTube videos for things I find useful. Because you never know...
Re: Link Rot
On 5/22/21 7:41 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works > > On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk > wrote: > >> Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the >> article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% >> Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles >> but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc >> https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking I've said it before--putting information on the web is like writing in sand. Thank heavens for the Wayback machine (which is why I support Brewster's efforts). However, it's far from perfect--in particular ftp content has apparently never been archived and many vendor's support pages have had robots.txt files preventing them from being archived. Still, it's better than nothing and I appreciate it. Were it more complete, I might not have to spend so much time reverse-engineering software. Try searching for some of the older, say, HP support pages. I'm pretty sure that some "executive' made the decision to pull all of the support material for old systems, as that doesn't contribute to the bottom line. The New HP Way. A nasty trend is adware sites are simply quoting text from a large number of now defunct pages; go to the link and you get the "CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE THE ONE BILLIONTH VISITOR!" page. Run, do not walk away. A more disturbing popular trend is information being placed in long-ish Youtube videos that could have been summarized concisely in a page of text. --Chuck
Re: Link Rot
link rot is weird in what disapears vs still works On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 6:45 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the > article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% > Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles > but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etc > https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking
Re: IBM PC Network
On 5/22/2021 7:50 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance than 10 Mbit Ethernet. We won a number of large contracts when other network companies used twisted pair 10 Mbit Ethernet in "noisy" environments and their networks failed miserably. I guess that's a selling point of TR, but I loathed it when introduced to it after using Ethernet at UIUC. Having to learn CPI-C, LU-2, LU-6.2, APPC, etc. and configure Communications Manager/2 on OS/2 to emulate a FEP (3174?, not sure, my mind tended to bury such information, and in fact I'm not sure if that's what it did or if it connected to a FEP, that info is gone and I've no desire to go review it). When the network worked, it was fine, of course, but it seemed every week someone would do something that would switch a TR card in a PC to 4Mb, and the entire network would die, "beaconing" for an hour while the IT folks ran around trying to figure out where the issue lie. And, it was an office building, so not a ton of noise... Seeing the 370 (3090, as I recall, nice imposing looking machine) was impressive, and I will admit working in a firm with an IBM 370 architecture machine gave me a new and profound appreciation for the staying power of the mainframe (I started the job thinking, as all recently minted IT professionals no doubt think, that the mainframe was soon to be discarded in favor of UNIX and potentially the newly arrived Linux OS. That job changed my mind). But, I never grew fond of TR, and as soon as IBM supported Ethernet, I was happy. (Plus, there was no TR driver in Linux initially, and we all desperately wanted to run Linux on our PCs to run a real OS instead of Win3.1 or OS/2. OS/2 was nice, to be fair, but it was not UNIX...) Jim
Re: IBM PC Network
Bill, On Sat, 22 May 2021 17:43:44 -0400 Bill Degnan wrote: > You mean a Tokenray network? Wow, never heard of "Tokenray" ;) BTW: 16 Mbit Token Ring was much more reliable (especially in "noisy" environments) and considerably faster with more consistent performance than 10 Mbit Ethernet. We won a number of large contracts when other network companies used twisted pair 10 Mbit Ethernet in "noisy" environments and their networks failed miserably. When Ethernet finally went to 100 Mbit, it also had better noise margins and nearly everyone moved to that (except folks with mainframe computers). Ultimately, IBM supported Ethernet on mainframes, so that "ended" Token Ring networks (plus IBM never upgraded Token Ring past 16 Mbit). Regularly upgrading networks was one of the things that made the networking/systems-integration business so terrific. Oh yes, that and we used to charge about $250-$350 a node for network cards with a 40% margin. Ah, those were the days ;) Cheers, Lyle -- > On Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:34 PM Lyle Bickley via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hi Grant, > > > > On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 > > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > > > they would be willing to part with? > > > > My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations > > "back in the day" ;) > > > > It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use > > existing > > 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of > > our installations were network only). > > > > IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a > > network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised > > in > > "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I > > tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had > > bought > > my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their > > 10,000+ > > workstations! > > > > Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and > > related > > hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). > > > > We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - > > but > > IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration > > firm > > and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert > > all > > of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double > > dipping" ;) > > > > By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring > > (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. > > > > All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > > -- > > > > > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > > > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > > > > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > > > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > > > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > > > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > 73 NM6Y > > Bickley Consulting West > > https://bickleywest.com > > > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Link Rot
Interesting article on Link Rot and its prevalence. According to the article even sources being referenced as early as 2018 have about a 60% Rot.I think all of us in this hobby can relate nor only to loss of articles but from sites, drivers, file repositories, etchttps://www.theverge.com/2021/5/21/22447690/link-rot-research-new-york-times-domain-hijacking
Re: IBM PC Network
You mean a Tokenray network? On Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:34 PM Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > Hi Grant, > > On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 > Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > > they would be willing to part with? > > My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations > "back in the day" ;) > > It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use > existing > 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of > our installations were network only). > > IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a > network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised > in > "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I > tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had > bought > my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their > 10,000+ > workstations! > > Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and > related > hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). > > We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - > but > IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration > firm > and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert > all > of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double > dipping" ;) > > By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring > (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. > > All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > > > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > > > > > > > > -- > 73 NM6Y > Bickley Consulting West > https://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >
Re: IBM PC Network
Hi Grant, On Sat, 22 May 2021 13:34:05 -0600 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that > they would be willing to part with? My company installed a several hundred IBM PC Network equipped workstations "back in the day" ;) It was a very stable network and had the advantage that one could use existing 75 ohm cable that could be simultaneously used for video (although, most of our installations were network only). IBM's NETBIOS was integrated into the IBM PC Network board. I wrote a network utility program to analyze NETBIOS networks (which was advertised in "Byte Magazine"). My largest software clients were TRW and the U.S. Navy. I tried to get the U.S. Navy as a client (unsuccessfully) - as they had bought my utility software and complained to me that it didn't support their 10,000+ workstations! Unfortunately, I long ago got rid of all my IBM PC Network cards and related hardware. (I still have some IBM Token Ring stuff, though). We also had several clients who "picked" Arcnet. We never recommended it - but IT folks had their own opinions - and we were a network/system-integration firm and would do whatever the the client asked for. (We later got to convert all of our Arcnet clients to IBM Token Ring or Ethernet. Kinda like "double dipping" ;) By the late 1980's I had converted all of our clients to Token Ring (especially those with IBM Mainframes) or Ethernet. All the PC Network hardware was ultimately scrapped... Cheers, Lyle -- > The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM > PC Network (and ARCnet) again. > > Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise > / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like > to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not > aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Re: IBM PC Network
On 5/22/21 12:34 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network > > > I have the tech ref on bitsavers. This was sytek cable modem tech. In small networks you had a little frequency translator box locally
IBM PC Network
Q: Does anyone have any IBM PC Network hardware and / or software that they would be willing to part with? The recent "COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernet" thread got me thinking about IBM PC Network (and ARCnet) again. Sadly, Wikipedia's IBM PC Network article [1] is about the most concise / complete source of information that I've seen in the past. I'd like to learn more. I knew about the F connectors on coax cable, but was not aware of centralized device needed to do frequency translation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Network -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: ECND -was- COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
I tend to agree with everything you said. Though, minor nitpick, I think you meant 80286 when you typed 80206. ;-) True, 0 looks like 8 with cheap glasses :-) What is an ECNE? ECNE was Enterprise CNE. You had to pass the CNE, then additional tests on SNA networking, 3+ Open, some of the various gateways (Telephone), routers, and TCP/IP. There weren't a lot of us, so they came out with the Master/CNE which I also got with Infrastructure/Advanced access domains. Still have the pins and the framed certs, those got me the job at the IEEE Computer Society despite being kicked out of college in the 80's. :-) C
Re: ECND -was- COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
I tend to agree with everything you said. Though, minor nitpick, I think you meant 80286 when you typed 80206. ;-) On 5/22/21 1:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Novel ECNE (I so don't get to drag that out much anymore. Drat) What is an ECNE? I know what a CNE and CNA are. But I've not heard of ECNE before. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
I think "compatible" is a weird things with Novell Ethernet labeled / citified cards as it's my understanding that Novell didn't actually sell the vast majority of NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. Instead, they licensed / certified that other manufacturer cards adhered to their standard. Thus there were a LOT of non-Novell NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. And that it's mostly by design. Correct. Novell got out of the hardware market after the NP600 Ethernet cards and those impressive ISA disk controller cards. Both were pretty impressive, if I recall the NP600 had the entire IPX/SPX protocol on it to offload work from the CPU and the disk card could do mirroring right on the controller. But newer CPUs just pointed to the whole "the CPU is quicker anyway" so Novell got out of that business and licensed boards like the NE2000 for a pittance. That, the Intel Etherexpress, and the 3c509 pretty much did it for Ethernet till PCI. I'm curious to know what network stack you're going to run on that system. I don't know if it's an 8088, 80286, 80386 or what. Each obviously has different capabilities. Though I guess the 8-bit ISA slots indicate that it's probably 8088 or 80286. Though I think that Compaq may have used the 8086 too. Whatever it is, chances are good that memory will be small if not tight. Pretty much all 80206's had 16 bit busses, the only ones I saw with 8 bit were XT's upgraded with the Mountain/286 or that oddball Microsoft card. The Mountain was the weirdest, 8 bit card, 80286 with a couple of K of cache memory, and a plug to go into the 8086 CPU socket. That was it, no memory, no disk, no kidding. CZ Novel ECNE (I so don't get to drag that out much anymore. Drat)
Re: SCSI2SD
On 5/22/2021 10:29 AM, Zane Healy wrote: On May 21, 2021, at 5:15 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: On 5/21/2021 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I’m thinking about using them on some of my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I’ve gotten used to a quiet office. :-) Zane I've got a SCSI2SD V5 in my MicroVAX 3100 M95. It sits on the SCSI bus along with the CDrom drive and a couple of 18GB Compaq/Seagate drives. I've also got a SCSI2SD V6 in each of my two AlphaSever DS10 systems. I had a few issues with the MV and an earlier version of the V5 firmware, but the last few versions have been no trouble at all. In the MV3100 I mounted the SCSI2SD on a 3.5" 3-D printed mount which is mounted on a 3.5" to 5.25" mount and it's mounted in the front opening next to the CDROM drive. In the DS10's the 3.5" 3-D printed mount is put in the floppy opening. This is definitely good info John, how is the SCSI2SD performance on the DS10’s? I’m pondering using either an AlphaStation 200 4/233 or a AlphaStation 500/333 as a workstation, rather than my DEC PWS 433a or my Compaq XP1000/667, simply due to power usage, and heat generation. I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I’ll need. Once they have V6 boards back in stock, I’ll need to order a couple of those as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power consumption. Zane Zane, They perform adequately. They are no speed demons for sure since they're basically a SCSI-2 (there is a SCSI-2 Mode enable option) disk. They go about as fast as most drives with a 50-pin interface do. It's been a while since I configured them but I'm sure I have them set to the fastest speed. The SCSI2SD utility for V6 has a dropdown box with speed choices and mine are either set to "Synch, 10MB/s" or to "No Limit (safe)". Truthfully though I haven't used them in a while in the DS10's since I did an experiment with a P410 SmartArray card with two 256GB Samsung SSD's and it worked (and is still working). The only downside to that is they have to be configured somewhere else since the Alpha MSA utility doesn't understand them. But once configured (both cards and SSD) then they work great. The other downside is no boot support so I need to either boot from a normal SCSI drive or the SCSI2SD. I've thought about the latter, but haven't tried it yet. Though I have booted from the SCSI2SD before. I'm pretty sure at some point I experimented with using HBVS between two SCSI2SD drives (partitions on the same SD since I only have one card in each system) and it worked. But I can't find any notes so it might be something I intended to do but didn't. Regards, John H. Reinhardt
Re: SCSI2SD
> wrote: In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD?s in the device. I?m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a drive size limitation, or you?re trying to emulate something like 2GB or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB Boot Drive limitation. -Zane Zane, I am using SCSI2SD cards in a VAXstation 4000/90a, and in a MV3100-80 as well as an Alpha DS10. In the two VAXes, I use two SCSI2SD cards, configured identically with a system drive and a user drive on class 10 16GB microSD cards. So each microSD card has both the system drive and the user drive. Thus I can use VMS backup from one microSD card to another so that if one microSD card fails I can easily recover from it. So far I have not had hardware failures, but being able to recover from a bad software installation which has been VERY helpful. Mark
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On 5/22/21 11:16 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: The venerable options of LapLink and / or InterLnk (InterSvr) come to mind for transferring files. I forgot to mention, both LapLink and InterLnk (InterSvr) supported a parallel port cable too. It was quite a bit faster than the serial null modem cable. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On 5/20/21 9:09 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: I assume there is Windows on the Compaq? I think that it would need to be Windows for Workgroups; 3.1 / 3.11, to include networking support. Depending on the class of hardware that Randy's Compaq is, that may be a tall order for the system. If you only want "some" connection, not "fastest possible", then I would go with serial cable (I think the special one - so called "null modem" is required, but there are probably receipts for making one) via some kind of Unix laptop to connect with the rest of the world. The venerable options of LapLink and / or InterLnk (InterSvr) come to mind for transferring files. I've also seen a number of older DOS based networking things that are completely proprietary communications protocols. EtherDrive (?) comes to mind. -- I know that there are old threads on this list talking about them. I think I started some of them. I think your options are briefly described here: - TCP over RS-232 with Windows 3.1 and Internet Explorer 5 dialer https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/9018/tcp-over-rs-232-with-windows-3-1-and-internet-explorer-5-dialer PPP or SLIP protocols for serial line, then some net routing on laptop. Trumpet Winsock was the name of software that did such trick for me 25 years ago, when I configured and connected Windows95 on Pentium without net card to the Linux box, using PPP. It was not perfect but mostly worked. TCP/IP is one of many network stacks that could be used. I personally somewhat question the value of TCP/IP on early computers, mostly because I'm ignorant of viable client applications. As in the web browsers that existed for the time can do very little today without a lot of help. Telnet / rlogin are mostly dead for security reasons. And I'm not aware of any SSH / HTTPS implementations that have been created for old OSs. Thus, file and printer sharing are the main things that networking older systems seems to offer to me. With that in mind, it seems to me like other network stacks might be easier to work with; IPX (NetWare), NetBIOS (IBM / Microsoft / Artisoft), DECnet (Digital), Vines (Banyan). - MINUET for DOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Internet_Users_Essential_Tool You may have some basic clients in this package, provided they are still relevant in modern web environment (and if they are available to download). On the page above there are some links you may follow. Things could be better if you had something Unixy on old computer, but web browsing is not going to be fun, just passable experience. Other protocols - like, for sending mails - could have moved on too and it is hard to tell what current servers will tell if you try old clients with them... You will find out :-) . Ya. Hence why I think TCP/IP for contemporary Internet on old computers is so problematic. There are some SSL/TLS stripping proxies that can be used to allow clients that don't support contemporary web security standards via the intermediary gateway almost doing a protocol conversion between unencrypted and contemporary encryption. Then you get into old browsers not understanding contemporary HTML. Let's not even think about HTTP/2. Fortunately, SMTP hasn't changed much. Sure, there's now ESMTP, but many / most systems will fall back to stock SMTP with little difficulty. The biggest hurdle that I see is authentication and the likely need to do that over an encrypted channel. Fortunately it's trivial to stand up a private contemporary SMTP server that will allow retro clients to communicate in retro methods and then turn around and speak contemporary methods to contemporary servers. One of the thing you may want to be wary is, old terminal emulator (on Unixy OS) may not be prepared for some fancy attacks, when, say, something (a command or an email being viewed in your mail client on the terminal) produces certain charcter squence and makes your terminal do things... Unicode and UTF-8 immediately come to mind. Though I would hope that a proper TERMCAP and well behaved client software would largely work around most of that. For example (this one is few days old): - rxvt-unicode: possible remote code execution https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1961794 Yep. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: SCSI2SD
On 5/22/21 9:19 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD’s in the device. There should be SMART support so you can see what the state of the card is, assuming your SD will push that information out through SPI SD is not an SSD in that respect. People just live with the fact that an SD will just roll over and die without warning.
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
Hi Rich, On 5/20/21 8:21 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: I have ISA ethernet and Arcnet boards. I'd be interested in knowing more about your ARCnet boards. Of course, that is if Randy doesn't end up using them. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On 5/20/21 8:01 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: If anyone has ideas about boards or software to connect this original Compaq to the net let me know! As others have said, I would expect that many 16-bit ISA Ethernet cards to work in 8-bit ISA slots. You might look for NE-1000 (compatible*) Ethernet cards. My understanding is that the NE-1000 vs NE-2000 was 8-bit vs 16-bit (respectively). I would expect most, if not all NE-1xxx / NE-2xxx models to work as the subsets within the 1k / 2k range were effectively still 1k or 2k cards. I think "compatible" is a weird things with Novell Ethernet labeled / citified cards as it's my understanding that Novell didn't actually sell the vast majority of NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. Instead, they licensed / certified that other manufacturer cards adhered to their standard. Thus there were a LOT of non-Novell NE-1000 / NE-2000 cards. And that it's mostly by design. Browsing the ebay, I do not find a PC 8 bit ethernet board but still looking. You might consider one of the parallel port network cards. "Backpack" and "Rocket" terms come to mind. Though I could be completely conflating things. Then, the rest, a net set of tools in source would be great. I'm curious to know what network stack you're going to run on that system. I don't know if it's an 8088, 80286, 80386 or what. Each obviously has different capabilities. Though I guess the 8-bit ISA slots indicate that it's probably 8088 or 80286. Though I think that Compaq may have used the 8086 too. Whatever it is, chances are good that memory will be small if not tight. Having just acquired an old LANtastic box with CDs & floppies off of eBay -- for giggles & edutainment -- I would wonder about using that. Novell NetWare (Light) is probably a choice. LAN Manager / other SMB (NetBIOS) networking from IBM / Microsoft comes to mind. I think it would be really neat to establish an old PC Network using coax (?) from IBM with whatever software stack they used. I'd bet SMB / NetBIOS based. ARCnet is probably a choice as well. I'd like to get a pair of working ARCnet (and PC Net) cards to dabble with some day. I'd enjoy reading more about what you are doing / ultimately end up doing Randy. #hazFun -- Grant. . . . unix || die
RE: SCSI2SD
> In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it > seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD’s > in the device. I’m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a > single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a > drive size limitation, or you’re trying to emulate something like 2GB > or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB > Boot Drive limitation. Agreed. I think it would just be a cost saving measure. You need to replace 2 or more drives and don't want to buy multiple SCSI2SD boards. As for drive size limitation you can always get around that with partitioning and wasting the space on the rest of the card. -Ali
Re: SCSI2SD
On May 22, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Ali wrote: > >> I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID >> configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they >> look like real HDD to the system but who knows? > > Looking at the FAQ it looks like it does: > > "Does SCSI2SD do ECC or mirroring ? > > No. However, you can configure SCSI2SD as up to four devices and use whatever > RAID, data duplication, striping, or mirroring capabilities your equipment > supports." > > In fact it looks like you can subdivide one card into four virtual drives and > do mirroring and RAID on one card. Kind of defeats the purpose but I guess it > can be a cheap solution to avoid having to buy multiple boards. > > Now if they would make an UW version > > -Ali In this the weakest link would appear to be the SD Card. As such it seems to me that the best solution would be to have 2 or more SCSI2SD’s in the device. I’m not sure what benefit would be achieved by using a single board to present multiple devices. Unless of course you had a drive size limitation, or you’re trying to emulate something like 2GB or 4GB drives. As an example, that would be handy for VAXen with a 1GB Boot Drive limitation. Zane
RE: SCSI2SD
> I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID > configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they > look like real HDD to the system but who knows? Looking at the FAQ it looks like it does: "Does SCSI2SD do ECC or mirroring ? No. However, you can configure SCSI2SD as up to four devices and use whatever RAID, data duplication, striping, or mirroring capabilities your equipment supports." In fact it looks like you can subdivide one card into four virtual drives and do mirroring and RAID on one card. Kind of defeats the purpose but I guess it can be a cheap solution to avoid having to buy multiple boards. Now if they would make an UW version -Ali
Re: SCSI2SD
On May 22, 2021, at 8:35 AM, Ali wrote: > >> I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I’ll need. Once >> they have V6 boards back in stock, I’ll need to order a couple of those >> as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power >> consumption. > > I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID > configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they look > like real HDD to the system but who knows? > > -Ali That is a good question. Since I’m primarily getting these for OpenVMS, one of the reasons I went with 4 boards to start is that I figure I can use Volume Shadowing on one of the systems. I do wish that they offered UW-SCSI, and SCA SCSI options. Zane
RE: SCSI2SD
> I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I’ll need. Once > they have V6 boards back in stock, I’ll need to order a couple of those > as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power > consumption. I am wondering if anyone has used these to replace HDDs in RAID configurations? My thought would be it should work fine as long as they look like real HDD to the system but who knows? -Ali
Re: SCSI2SD
On May 21, 2021, at 5:15 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/21/2021 3:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone have experience using a SCSI2SD board to replace a Hard Drive on >> a VAXstation or an AlphaStation? I’m thinking about using them on some of >> my systems to reduce the amount of noise. I’ve gotten used to a quiet >> office. :-) >> >> Zane >> >> >> > > I've got a SCSI2SD V5 in my MicroVAX 3100 M95. It sits on the SCSI bus along > with the CDrom drive and a couple of 18GB Compaq/Seagate drives. I've also > got a SCSI2SD V6 in each of my two AlphaSever DS10 systems. I had a few > issues with the MV and an earlier version of the V5 firmware, but the last > few versions have been no trouble at all. > > In the MV3100 I mounted the SCSI2SD on a 3.5" 3-D printed mount which is > mounted on a 3.5" to 5.25" mount and it's mounted in the front opening next > to the CDROM drive. > > In the DS10's the 3.5" 3-D printed mount is put in the floppy opening. This is definitely good info John, how is the SCSI2SD performance on the DS10’s? I’m pondering using either an AlphaStation 200 4/233 or a AlphaStation 500/333 as a workstation, rather than my DEC PWS 433a or my Compaq XP1000/667, simply due to power usage, and heat generation. I just placed an order for the initial 4 V5.2 boards I’ll need. Once they have V6 boards back in stock, I’ll need to order a couple of those as well. These should definitely help reduce heat, noise, and power consumption. Zane
