Re: Reason for GPS problems found!
Am Di 15. Juli 2008 schrieb thomasg: Hi ppl, I write this to community, not to devel or owners because everyone should know: *sbeh*, one of the people in #neo1973-germany IRC-channel found the reason for the GPS problems. The problem only occurs if a SD card is set in. Doesn't matter if it's mounted or in use, it just has to sit in the socket. The TTFF went from no fix at all to TTFF 120 seconds indoor(!!!), and about 40 seconds outdoor. Two other people could verify this with about the same results. We'll do more tests later, but for now we surely know what's causing the problem (and it seems to be a EMC problem). First results show at the same devices, even outdoor, that there is no fix in over 400 seconds with SD card, the signal seems to be at least 10 to 20 dB worse (so bad, that most satellites don't even appear). Testresults from other people appreciated. So we can assume this is pretty confirmed by quite some reports now. Thanks to community for the awesome help on this! Special thanks to *sbeh* for finding this. Please mail me directly ;-)!! We did quite some tests on this as fast as we could (and I never assumed we could be *that* fast), and it seems we found the root cause of the problem. ALL THIS IS PRELIMINARY INFO! Due to further tests to confirm. Just to let you all know we're on it, and please stop thinking about shielding the SDcard with tin foil or relocating internal gps-antenna. It won't probably help. The good news: *IF* all pans out, there's (or soon will be) a new kernel at Andy branch that stops SD-card clock when SDcard is idle. We hope this will almost cure the problem, at least reduce it to sth like you can't GPS while watching video from SD or the like (hope you can cope with that ;). We're about to verify a hw-fix so you could even watch video and still have GPS positioning during that. Please stay tuned and be patient, we'll come up with news *really soon*. And *please* don't try weird reworks and maybe break your FR by doing so ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!
Am Di 15. Juli 2008 schrieb Jonathan Spooner: but one thing that was not expected was that people would be spending money on a device that could have potential hardware issues. You're kidding, no? You ever bought a piece of HW you were guaranteed there is *definitively* no hardware bug in it? None, or you get a billion$? c'mon! Perhaps those complaining are those who can least afford to blow $399. That's why I say I don't like those people. They never noticed the bug, and when we are about to discuss it and to offer a solution they start whining. OOOh, the BAD bug. If only I never had bought... Instead of plain asking what we're going to do to MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY again. (what we are already about to do!) /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!
Am Di 15. Juli 2008 schrieb Jay Vaughan: You ever bought a piece of HW you were guaranteed there is *definitively* no hardware bug in it? None, or you get a billion$? c'mon! Ever heard of Consumers rights? Lemon Laws? You can't sell hardware that you know has bugs in it, legally, in many places around the world. Ever thought about I might feel personally offended by you publically assuming I sell hw I *know* or even have suspect there is a HW-bug in it. Ever heard of laws about this? Perhaps those complaining are those who can least afford to blow $399. That's why I say I don't like those people. They are your customers. This is an open source project, people have a chance to communicate. And I have this chance too. I just say I don't like those people... I'm not obliged to like them. They never noticed the bug, and when we are about to discuss it and to offer a solution they start whining. OOOh, the BAD bug. If only I never had bought... Instead of plain asking what we're going to do to MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY again. (what we are already about to do!) Sure will be nice when its done, but for now, we do need to keep talking about the issue, and the point needs to be made that this *is* a serious issue for many people, if it doesn't get resolved in a fashion that makes sense. I'm already miffed about the Glamo/SD issue - for me, Glamo was one of the great things about Freerunner on 'paper', and now its not so useful after all. I would be really turned off if the same thing happened to GPS. So, yes, please tune us into the fix when you've got one. But in the meantime, no need to get upset because your customers are communicating with each other.. Did you consider the public image that's being created by a statement like Ah well, this seems not to work. So the brick is useless for me. Damn the day I bought it This statement is offending and deprecating on all the people that are actually about to fix the issue that's so bitterly complained about. And it's an implicit lie as there's no problem we resigned on to solve it and put the device to use for the complaining customer. But honestly, I don't like to continue this debate, and I actually don't have the time to. Have some bugs to fix, U know ;-) Appreciate our efforts or not. ETX jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!
Am Mi 16. Juli 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): Mikko Rauhala wrote: We're about to verify a hw-fix so you could even watch video and still have GPS positioning during that. Excellent. One would hope official retailers *cough*pulster*cough* would be able to perform such an operation, once verified; perhaps allow for fixes being done by local hw-capable people (sadly not me) without voiding warranty... Well, I'm curious about that too. I've not a FR in my hands yet (HandsHeld-Linux should ship it on next days, and he talked me about analyzing some GPS issues...) but I'd like to know if this hw-fix will be doable by everyone or if it will need any special prerequisite. I already asked you to be patient. A hw-fix has to be developed, it has to be tested on dozens of devices, it has to be evaluated for costrisk vs. benefit (maybe there are other possible fixes. are they more effective? less dangerous?). Then it depends on purpose of any hw-fix: is it for MP of new devices, for rework at some lab where devices are sent in, or is it meant to be done by a DIY soldering iron noob... You see it's not that simple We have to think about multiple scenarios and come up with an answer to each of them, evaluating them, and then post some Standard Operating Procedure suggestions to customers/community. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA01BV4 died, please help me.
Am Mi 16. Juli 2008 schrieb Michael Shiloh: The OP says it fails to boot even with a full Nokia battery, so it's unlikely to be the dead battery problem. Yep The two other failures mentioned are (1) removing the battery while plugged into USB and (2) corrupting Flash memory Does anyone know exactly what is damaged by removing the battery while plugged into USB? Is there a way to verify that this in fact is the cause of the problem? This shouldn't cause any problem on GTA02 (on GTA01 there were some scream of death issues when removing bat while charged IIRC). At least we have no reports on this so far, I myself do remove bat while on charger frequently - no harm. Another poster suggested damaged Flash. In this case, inspection with the debug board should verify this and allow for repair. I presume you don't have a debug board? Check whether someone near you has a debug board, or send it to someone with a debug board. Well a device not starting on a full battery is to be considered broken and should be sent in for repair. My 2 cent. Of course you could check NOR, 'cause it'll not stat with bad NOR. But you're supposed to not be able to break NOR without debug-board. So no use in trying to get one, if you don't have already. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): Michael Shiloh wrote: The final method involves charging the battery manually, enough to allow Freerunner to boot. This requires an external power supply of about 4.5 Volts and should be done only if you feel comfortable with electronics and hardware and understand about short circuits. Let me know if you want to do this and I'll instruct you privately. Well, maybe this could be useful for other owners, isn't it? We mustn't advice customers to try potentially destructive or even dangerous procedures. Thus no public howto for manual charge of LiIon batteries! Well, I don't think that one would to that just for fun... I figure that who will try a procedure like that is enough experienced and/or wants to risk with his own device. I'm simply saying that the method should be well documented in public (since it's not the first time that occurs) underlining that it's only a very dangerous tip and that the Om team doesn't suggest it, then everyone can decide if following it. PS: BTW I hope I won't use it since I've ordered also some extra an battery and I've some compatible ones near me; I just wanted to express my idea... Actually I don't recommend this, not even with warning note. There are better ways do cope with this: hotswap or external LiIon charger/other cellphone. Battery has max chrg V of ~4.2V and max I of ~1A. Anybody needing to know more on it, shouldn't even think about it. The ones who think they understood the above: formating charge current when bat is deeply discharged shouldn't even exceed 50~100mA! Otherwise U might kill bat. LiIon is tricky! /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Ben Wilson: So the freerunner doesn't suffer from the problem in gta01 of squealing (and potential damage) if you remove the battery while it's charging? No reports so far. Seems we fixed that ;-) /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Can't boot Freerunner without battery - Was: Re: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Steven **: Perhaps it's been said before and I missed it... But why can't the Neo boot off USB power alone? Boils down to sth like powering up a whole town after blackout. All components drawing a spike of energy same moment, which USB can't deliver. -next blackout. Werner's new U-boot extenuates this somewhat, but as much of this is inside PMU hardcoded, SW can't do much. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Antenna is pointing front longaxis. You have to hold device upright (lanyard hole to ground, AUX-key to sky)! /jOERG Am Sa 12. Juli 2008 schrieb Jonathan Spooner: I've been playing with my GPS and finally got a fix using agps diag tool. I stood the gta02 up on my garden table using a pop bottle :-) I think bottom line the gta02 has a poor antenna in fact the first time I got a fix I did so at the point I rested my free stylus on top of the gta02! Once I had a fix I used the signal strength screen in the agps diag tool and its then plain to see the signal is precarious at best with an average strength of around 28 which is greatly affected by orientation and nearby objects from hands, stylus, people etc pretty much what you'd expect in a device thats receiving a very weak signal except we know the say system is working so that only leaves the gta02 internal antenna as the problem. Thoughts? Jon Russell Sears wrote: I played with it a bit more and think i figured out why i wasn't getting locks quickly. It looks like my Freerunner's GPS is working after all! :) I've updated the wiki GPS_Problems page with some basic information about how GPS devices obtain initial locks, and added more troubleshooting information... It would have saved me a few hours; hopefully someone else will find it useful. Someone familiar with GPS should probably check it for errors. Most of what I wrote is based on things I learned today by word-of-mouth and skimming wikipedia articles. -Rusty Russell Sears wrote: This might help too (I should add myself to it...): http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems I've only gotten a fix using the agps diagnostic tool gui. I did it in the middle of a clear night with nothing near by, by going to the signal strength screen, and slowly rotating the phone until the bars started turning from light blue to dark blue, and going with an orientation that seemed to work, kind of like with an old analog TV set... I don't know if doing it actually helped, but while playing this game, I got a fix in ~ 2-3 minutes, vs the tens of minutes I'd waited before that. Bumble, after 10-15 minutes of waiting, do you see any satellites in the ss tab of the agps diagnostic tool? Does it display a time in UTC after a few minutes? If so, we're probably in the same boat. Is there a document explaining the exact handshaking procedure the chipset in the freerunner uses to lock onto the satellites? -Rusty andres wrote: On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 23:57 +0200, Bumbl wrote: Be happy I have never got a fix up to now although trying on different locations for 45min each. I'll consider to use my waranty. probably this is related http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FreeRunner_GPS_antenna_repair_SOP ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Antenna is pointing front longaxis. You have to hold device upright (lanyard hole to ground, AUX-key to sky)! /jOERG Am Di 8. Juli 2008 schrieb atweb: Hello, On Monday, I had a fix after an hour (eating by mom and laying FR in my card at the north side of the house). Today, the GPS found lot of satellites but did not get a fix (see screenshots). cu Markus signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS issue related to GPS antenna selector ?
Am So 13. Juli 2008 schrieb Philippe Guillebert: Hello, Thanks to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Freerunner_Hardware_Issues , I ran into the following (and quite scary) thread : http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/2008-April/55.html So I was wondering, maybe the poor GPS performance issue many FR seem to have, especially on the internal antenna, is related to the GPS antenna MUX (the part responsible for the switch between internal antenna, and external antenna if you hook one up) selecting the external antenna, even when there isn't one ? The randomness of this issue could be explained because driving the mux with levels like 26% Vdd is kind of grey zone and can result in some devices working as expected and some selecting the ext. antenna without one and then having bad reception. I see one way to test this theory, by driving the select signal VCONT to 0V (Werner Almesberger talks about shorting R7616) and see if this improve reception on the internal antenna. This is pure speculation, I didn't test anything and perhaps that's just plain stupid but I'd love to hear from someone that focused on this issue back in April. IIRC Andy did all of these tests and found they didn't solve or even alter the symptoms (see later posts in same thread). Though the circuit design is definitely flaky, it doesn't seem to trigger any of the suspected problems. Anyway thanks for the feedback jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)
Am Do 10. Juli 2008 schrieb Stroller: On 10 Jul 2008, at 07:17, Michael Kluge wrote: It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not aware of the other list up to now). Urg, if you must, for the present. IMO it's better if the correct list was simply addressed in the first place. I tend to set Xposted topics to [ignore], as they are impossible to follow on and just waste my time. Xposting is considered bad practice anyway /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SanDisk micro SDHC 8GB card under testing
Am Do 10. Juli 2008 schrieb ian douglas: Shawn Rutledge wrote: What about on the GTA01? The biggest I have tried so far is 2 gig because I wasn't sure if SDHC was working. I sold my GTA01 months ago earlier this year, so I can only test on my GTA02v5. I imagine someone with a v6 Freerunner can do some additional testing. There's no difference between A5 and A6 /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: AW: RE: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
No use in connecting a FR to any source to charge bat, as long as it doesn't boot up. Actually it drains battery even further, instead of charging. Battery is only charged when booting succeeds. Jumpstart the battery is very unlikely to help you out. Get FR booted by any means 1.:Remove sim-card! 2.:Use wallcharger to startup. 3:borrow battery, apply 4.5V (5V!!!) to + and minus of battery connector in FR. After 5~10sec FR should come up and you don't need startup-battery or 4.5V-power-source any more - remove it! FR should run happily from wallcharger. Now *don't* power down, and insert dead battery. battery is going to charge now. Alternative way: find a charger for nokia-bat, or even use an old nokia to charge dead battery. e.g. 6230i. If you find a friend who could lend a battery to you, maybe he might prefer to take your bat and charge it for a short while. sorry for the inconvenience. Usually we shouldn't see dead batteries. We expect to fix the deep-discharge of bat at software side. The problems with no startup on dead bat are partially a hw-issue. Though Werner has a new u-boot that might help (coming soon), especially when you got a device that flashes red aux-led (good sign!). cheers jOERG Am So 13. Juli 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ok...I`ll wait for Michael`s explanation... thx Ursprüngliche Nachricht Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Datum: 13.07.2008 17:16 An: List for Openmoko community discussioncommunity@lists.openmoko.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Michael Shiloh[EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down If your battery falls below a certain level then FreeRunner sometimes will not charge it. We are working on fixes for this but in the short term you have these options. 1. Jump start your battery. Michael will explain how, Takes 5 seconds. 2. Get a stand alone battery charger from Nokia ( for battery types 4bl, 5bl, 6bl) 3. Get a replacement battery. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of arne anka Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 7:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down while surfing the device-owners list i've stumbled over this: Sometimes it happened (I think to all of us! ;) ) that NEO1973's battery goesfully discharged, and for this I follow the instruction on the wiki pages(detach battery 20 seconds, attach to USB, wait 1 hour, start the Phone). anyway -- the guy posting this seemed to have killed his battery (not finished the thread yet). regarding you usb-only: maybe your usb port does not supply 500mAh? btw: your leds flash? mine do nothing -- is this related to the asu image? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Anyone using FR as a phone?
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Scott Derrick: I don't get some people have experienced audio issues? Is this an indication of the level of quality control in manufacture ring? Scott This is a short form of description of the *very* random and statistic nature of this issue. We got some reports from customers about this noise. We are still investigating on what conditions need to come together to produce this problem. Seems like carrier, band(850,900,1800,1900), location, time of day, weather(yeah!), way to hold the device(!), open or closed doors and windows etc etc etc, all influence this. On my setups to reproduce, I constantly failed to create this noise on FR, but had bad noise on a decent Nokia I used for reference purposes. Mention this, just to illustrate the problems we see on evaluating the issue. Thus far we have no clear data on that, and we have no exact reports on number of people who experience this problem. As soon as things are more clear, we will report on it. Meanwhile we are about to improve the hw to cope with this (a little difficult without exact idea of the way this happens). /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: wiki:gps: rephrasing?
Antenna is pointing front longaxis. You have to hold device upright (lanyard hole to ground, AUX-key to sky)! /jOERG Am So 13. Juli 2008 schrieb arne anka: hi, i found http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Problems#Basic_GPS_debugging which starts as follows: ... (the screen the right way up, with the top of the phone facing up, and the screen facing the horizon) ... well, i have to confess my command of english is not sufficient to understand it. could someone please rephrase? thx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Qtopia Speakerphone
Am So 13. Juli 2008 schrieb Yochai Gal: Hi all, the qtopia image makes the FreeRunner almost a usable phone, but I have a problem. I was able to get the audio to work by creating the symlink below, but the speakerphone still doesn't work --- it emits a loud beep sound instead. Any ideas? Thanks so much. lln -s /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios /etc/alsa yochai The mixer settings for speakerphone, which are restored from /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios, have to be fixed to eliminate path from mic to speaker, to avoid this feedback. Also there is a second place to look at to tweak sidetone path (that's what it's called, also the alsamixer settings are named in a braindead way here! Don't get fooled!), in modem setup. There's some AT-command to send to modem to stop sidetone path in modem. Mickey knows more on this. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: AW: Re: AW: RE: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
Am So 13. Juli 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: It mean the same as one know this from a car with a very low battery... (bridged ) just put another battery (I think it`s important, that the second battery have the same Volt) parallel to the original battery. If so, the FR can take the power from the two batteries... This might fail: if your battery is dead, it has low voltage. Now you jumpstart with a second battery, and FR boots. But same time the dead bat's internal protection might trigger for too high charging current from much higher voltage from parallel battery. This protection circuit needs to reset, what might not happen until you stop to try to charge it, and in fact discharge it a short while. So it's better practice to start the FR just from the good battery, and insert the dead one after boot has completed and jumpstart bat has been removed. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Anyone using FR as a phone?
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Tim Schmidt: On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Meanwhile we are about to improve the hw to cope with this (a little difficult without exact idea of the way this happens). Meaning, the improvement will show up in a new rev of the Freerunner, or in the next model phone? Depends on which kind of improvement we are ending with. Obviously sth like a metal case for shielding can't be done as a simple FR product revision - just for example. Simple change of a component value is a completely different story. For now no results thus no statement. ;-) /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: unable to start up freerunner after batterie was full down
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): Michael Shiloh wrote: The final method involves charging the battery manually, enough to allow Freerunner to boot. This requires an external power supply of about 4.5 Volts and should be done only if you feel comfortable with electronics and hardware and understand about short circuits. Let me know if you want to do this and I'll instruct you privately. Well, maybe this could be useful for other owners, isn't it? We mustn't advice customers to try potentially destructive or even dangerous procedures. Thus no public howto for manual charge of LiIon batteries! /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Anyone using FR as a phone?
Am Mo 14. Juli 2008 schrieb Yaroslav Halchenko: then why not to ask Randy S (who already steadily experiencing such an issue without much of fiddling with weather/location/manner of holding) to do additional troubleshooting and if it is unit specific, just to send the unit back for the replacement (and for you to troubleshoot on a defective unit 'as a reference')? It's not unit specific. This at least we already can say. Slight variations in severity, but I didn't get to reproduce it even with known bad devices, here at my lab. This known bad FR performed better than a Nokia6210 I used for reference. At my lab. :-/ But it's basically a EMI-shielding issue, it seems. We're on it. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: External Cell Antenna
The GSM-antenna connector is near hole and near one of the two screws, inside of Neo. You see when opening back-lid. HTH jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: freerunner unable to work with 3G SIMCards?
Am Di 8. Juli 2008 schrieb Jeffrey Ratcliffe: Tried 4 more German SIMs - none of the them worked: D2 Mannesmann (7 years old) Vodafone O2 T-D1 (T-Mobile) I don't see any pattern. Who has a German SIM working in their FR? I tried o2 (9Y old): ok Vodaphone (unknown but probably recent): ok Ay'yildiz (or sth like that, E+, new): ok Sometimes there are strange issues with the PIN of Ay.. being reenabled, when swapping cards? :-/ /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: questions about our mailinglists
here we go again XD let's stop it NOW! /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Am Mo 7. Juli 2008 schrieb thomasg: Btw. - I took a picture of my GPS_antenna, and I just can't imagine, that this will be able to get a GPS signal without siginficant loss to the reciever (that has only a sensitivity of -155 dBm in the best case). http://c.imagehost.org/0230/gps_antenna.jpg Please can you elaborate on this? What's wrong with the backside/amplifier of the antenna? Do you have any examples an antenna should look like? please see: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/hardware/attachments/20080507/9a64aa3c/GPSPhonePerformanceComparison050608-0001.pdf cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Car charger to GTA02
Am Sa 5. Juli 2008 schrieb Marco Trevisan (Treviño): btw has ever written the howto (we was talking about some months ago) for adding an ID resistor to a standard USB charger? Too many different usb-connectors out there, most of them molded and break when you open. So any howto very unlikely to appear. I'm currently looking for suppliers for adapters, maybe we may find one (see kernel-ml) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dallas/Austin Group Purchase
Am Do 3. Juli 2008 schrieb Josh Valdez: Just wondering if there is any more interest in the Dallas area for a group purchase. So far there are only three people. Also, we might be able to work something out with the Austin purchase as they almost have 20. To anyone in Austin, have you ordered yet? Congrats! your posting made it to 88% on spamassassin. Nobody loves HTML-mail! /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: applying screen protector
Am Sa 5. Juli 2008 schrieb arne anka: hi, after a sight seeing tour cross town ups gave my om on thursday, yesterday they dropped off the parcel! now, i'd like to apply a screen protector -- how do i disassemble the freerunner so the protector fits the whole screen? i found http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 but two questions remain: - do the steps apply to the freerunenr as well? yes - which screws are to be removed? the two right and left of the lanyard yes hole? one has a sticker on top -- what does that mean? nothing, I guess. just force screwdriver thru it /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: applying screen protector
Am So 6. Juli 2008 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: hole? one has a sticker on top -- what does that mean? nothing, I guess. just force screwdriver thru it btw: these are torx! Don't spoil with a phillips driver!!! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual Band GSM
Am Sa 5. Juli 2008 schrieb Mikko Rauhala: la, 2008-07-05 kello 14:01 +0200, Sean Lynch kirjoitti: Does anyone know if there are any plans for a Dual Band GSM openmoko phone? It'd be nice to have an 850/900 phone for use in the States or in Europe. You're confused. The phones are triband 850/1800/1900 and 900/1800/1900, called 850 and 900 models for short because that's where they differ. (In hindsight, this probably invites the confusion for people who don't know GSM.) The upshot, generalizing horribly much, is that either phone will work on both sides of the pond in densely populated areas (where 1800/1900 service is common), but not necessarily in the more rural areas of the wrong side (where 850/900 is commonly needed). One _does_ hope future models will be quad for increased flexibility (GTA03?). That's the plan /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: discount on invisibleshield protectors
Am Mo 7. Juli 2008 schrieb Steven **: I don't have my Neo yet, but the case doesn't look like a material that would easily scratch. Am I mistaken? I posted my findings some weeks ago. No, I don't consider to protect Neo's housing (if it's only for I get a new one easily [sorry]. Or maybe I'd like some scars and shiny corners better than an ugly foil - though I guess you won't see scars. Search for scoopman on ML - ~10Y, no scars) Screen protection probably is worth a thought (improved tactile IF on my PalmpilotV), but I'd always use an oversize sheet applied when front lid off. No f**king match the corner, place it right, cut-to-exact-fit. YMMV though /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Assassin visiting the morgue...
+1 need a dictionary to figure out what a particular app (diversity, assassin...) is meant for :-( Just ridiculous, no? Please!!! Can we have decent names?! Even amaroK managed somehow. ;-) /j Am Mo 7. Juli 2008 schrieb Kevin Dean: How about Morbid and Macabre? On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Gilles Casse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Some recent projects names are a little bit 'haloweenistisc': assassin, morgue. Using them all along the year, on a dark device, argh... If this vein is pursued, please note that Alzheimer, Ebola, JackTheRipper are already reserved at sourceforge. What a chance :-) Gilles ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery life case design
Am Di 1. Juli 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I wonder, is it just me or are there enough people out there who are interested in having more power? Enough people to make it worth while some company (maybe openmoko) to tool up to produce a new back cover for the gta02 thats a few mm thicker so it can hold a battery the full size of the rear cover... then all we need is a custom battery that will fit in the cover and interface with the existing power pins on the rear of the gta02. Looking at it we could easily gain 4-5 times the power with a large flat battery pack. Don't forget there is WiFi and BT antenna on the backside, which you mustn't cover by a big battery. GPS at top of device is no problem though, I think, as long as it has it's 5mm clearance to next metal (the ceramic zone). cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Battery life case design
Am Mi 2. Juli 2008 schrieb Francesco Cat: FR only accepts 100 or 500 mA current I think. Nope, FR sets MAXIMUM USB current to either 0.1, 0.5, or 1A depending on what's detected to be connected. This doesn't mean it won't work with 600mA. Either you set FR to 500mA and lose ~100mA of power source, or you figure out what's going to happen when we push the limit to 1A and power source goes down with voltage at ~600mA until FR doesn't pull any more than that, might work too. At least see wallcharger that CAN deliver 2A, but happily feeds FR with just 1A. So yes, it will be powered by it in the sense that the FR battery will have a longer life; but it should not be enought i think because the FR seems to need more than 100 mA and I don't think it will accept something like 250mA. It's 500 or 100. You can set arbitrary USB current limits by software, overriding the built-in detection. So a current limit of 250mA or 630mA is perfectly feasible I think. See spec of PCF50633 PMU. BTW: 6.58 Volts??? Strange... It should provide 5Volts to simulate a USB... YEP! You'll need a LDO-regulator for 5V. 6.5V will burn the device and give you a very expensive yet exclusive doorstopper. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: not being able to use Skype is a big problem
Am Do 3. Juli 2008 schrieb Greg Bonett: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: ...there are plenty of open alternatives. :) On that note, has anyone been able to run any open voip software running on the FR? You might try to crosscompile twinklephone.com. When stripping out (by make-option) the KDE and QT stuff, and building a mere cmdline version, it should be pretty platform independent. commenting out the libboost-regex stuff will save you a lot of cumbersome library porting (heard building the whole Boost lib takes a scary xGB of diskspace :-o ) - I think it's only needed for the number-converting function, which you can easily live without for the first. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: not being able to use Skype is a big problem
Am Do 3. Juli 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 20:56:43 -0500 Forrest Sheng Bao [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: they both use ARM. freerunner is armv4, n8xx is armv5. (think of it like a pentium vs pentium-mmx - it has extra instructions in v5 compared to v4, but the vast majority of the core is the same). it can be run.. if you are lucky that the compiled binary doesn't use them. you can always write binary shims to interface binaries to existing libraries and system. you can manually hex-edit the binary and replace the armv4 instructions with v4 ones (insert etc). hacking a binary is not something that hasn't been done before. it's been done so many times there are many people who think of it as an art form... it just may be a LOT of work. Forget about editing skype-binaries - they're encrypted (p.8) and hashsum-checked (p.14 of [1]). I tried to edit a simple alsa-device definition :-(, then some months later I've seen this: [1]http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-europe-06/bh-eu-06-biondi/bh-eu-06-biondi-up.pdf Should cure any interest in skype :D also see p.64 p.114 /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: To clone a SIM via Freerunner ?
Am So 29. Juni 2008 schrieb Steven Le Roux: Hi all, I plan to clone a future SIM to have a sports phone to preserve my freerunner... But changing all the time from a unit to another will quickly get me bored... Is there a way to clone the SIM with the phone ? No way, neither with phone nor with other means. You can't read out the crypto. You can ask your provider for a twin-card. That's exactly what you want. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Ordering Free-for-all?
Am So 29. Juni 2008 schrieb Dylan Semler: On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 3:45 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The units are already shippin to EU. So see your disty there. The units for the US are on the docks, The USA office is closed 2,3,4 july Who gets three days off for the fourth of July? That's ridiculous! -- Dylan Type faster. Use Dvorak: http://dvzine.org Type better. Use a decent email-client. ;P Your post was just all quote. Bemuses me like hell. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Slashdot post but no web store?
Am Do 26. Juni 2008 schrieb Kevin Dean: *** audio quailty on the headphone is lousy due to a hardware bug - as mp3 player useless *** Quality rating is prone to individual bias. Well, for nerds there will be projects similar to this one http://www.redwineaudio.com/iMod.html or this one http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/apple-diymod-my-take-famous-imod-56k-killer-featuring-3g-4g-5g-nano-1g-269604/ I will come up with a DIY primer on how to cope with these way to lousy caps inside FR. Anyway there are ways to use the FR as a decent MP3-player without any mod at all, for all but the most high-end-audiophiles. A bug I reported (http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1377) means it fails at being a personal audio player for now. The headset that came in the box with the 1973 and the Freerunner aren't particularly good, but that's ENTIRELY a subjective thing. No we HAVE an issue with decoupling caps in FR (simply too small and cheap). However it depends on type of headphones used (impedance), and it's absolutely fine for line-out usage, like connecting to the car, home stereo etc. I connect my 1973 to my car's AUX input and it sounds just fine. The issue he has is with the headset, not the jack. Either way, his assessment is true - headset quality and audio issues make using the Freerunner as a DAP impossible today. Only (partially) true for usage with low impedance headphones. *** headphone only mono. i.e. only one side works *** This is wrong, mmontour corrected it it on Slashdot. Yep, definitely. I used it for MP3-player (with original headset), and it wasn't THAT bad. Lower frequencies quite weak with low-Z-hs and on standard EQ-setting. I'm used to $600-headphones, so I noticed this. YMMV. Stereo anyway, so this is wrong info. *** headphone unusable for making phone calls due to EM-interferences *** Not sure if it's EM interference, but all the software I've used simply couldn't route the GSM stuff to the headset. I'm assuming it's a software issue but this is true in my experience, the included headset can't be used to make calls. No, it's true, it's EMI to the mic. Probably you can fix it with a ferrite block on headset cable near to the jack (well, not quite nice... but as long as it helps. Not tested yet though - by me). *** GPS has 10 minutes TTFF - yes, in 2008 where every cheapo GPS gets a fix in 45secs *** I've not gotten a fix EVER on the GPS - it's a software issue, I assume because I've gotten the GPS hardware to respond while poking at it. Our tests on GPS TTFF where quite comparable with some of the best devices available. However note there is some data GPS *has* to download from sat for virgin fix, which may take as long as 12min due to low bandwidth the sats offer (just takes this time for them to send one complete set of ephem and alm), and this download needs signal 30dB better than that for mere position fix. On tests done at Taipei the TTFF was around ~40sec without(!) AGPS, IIRC. So this is a clear sw-issue. *** developer community alienated by Lauer Co. GNOME knew why they kicked Rasterman out. *** Actually, this one might be trolling. I don't know about social politics, and frankly don't care. True or not, it's not relevant to the hardware sucking or being amazing. Dunno whether Carsten and Mickey consider it worth to answer this. If they do, it'll make may day ;-) *** so called ASU software is pre-alpha and reinventing the wheel once again *** Fact. So what. Everybody knows. Never anybody stated anything different. To me he looks quite trollish. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bands
Am Fr 27. Juni 2008 schrieb W.Kenworthy: How is the freerunner switched between the two frequency band triplets? Software, new image, link, factory only, ... Asking because what happens if you move carriers and they support the other combination? different build, factory only. No way to switch /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: bands
Am Fr 27. Juni 2008 schrieb W.Kenworthy: :( Well, there's probably no single provider using more than 1 (maybe 2) band. The allowed bands depend on national regulations, usually 900/1800 or 850/1900. So switching provider is what 3-band is made for. If you try to find a reality example for your scenario, it probably will include a move out of your country. That's why the different versions are called US(850) and Standard(900) sometimes. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Battery life [was: Re: Can the Freerunner now be charged with 1 or with 2 Amp ?]
Am Di 24. Juni 2008 schrieb Yorick Moko: It is known that the way you charge a battery influences the lifetime. Have there been any tests as to which is the best way to charge the freerunner? Nope, didn't find the time to do the expected 500 charge/discharge cycles ;-) Honestly, this is nothing FR or OM specific. Considerations valid for all LiIon batteries apply here as well. AFAIK, it's much more important not to push the last electron into the battery that might fit in here, than to charge with lower current. Some notebooks allegedly have a treat battery nice option, that stops charging at ~75%..90%. You could do this by adjusting the Vbat-max setting of PMU. Til now, nobody cared about it yet. cheers jOERG PS: have a Nokia with a LiIon accu that's 7 Years old now, 100% uptime. Still is good for 70% of initial capacity. So yes, obviously LiIon *can* have longer live than just 2 years. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Am Di 24. Juni 2008 schrieb Jisakiel: As a matter of fact that database would not even be needed, as we *do* have a GPS to get positions. So, for instance: - A location is defined somehow, and *beforehand*. Say manually while being there, perhaps with some precission range attached (high: 1m, low: whatever error margin the GSM have). Or perhaps entering latitude and longitude, gotten from google maps manually or whatever. - That location consists in some GPS coordinates, perhaps some wifis visible, and basically in which towers are we connected to. - When in range again of those 3 GSM towers, we know we are close to the location defined, and depending on the needed precision we can turn on the GPS if needed. Perhaps even the distance can be calculated more or less easily from the GSM signal information (I'd have to have a detailed look at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA01_gsm_modem#AT.25EM and its applicability to GTA02 , but a quick glance shows some promising information: This information together with the list of neighbouring cells could be used for geolocation and potentially yield better results than using Signal-quality values for that. ) also see: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002434.html and: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html Please someone who's good at geographics/maps give it a try and report your findings. If I see a nice map with a couple of intersecting ring-segments, I'll invite you on a beer there :-) I'll push up the reward to a 50€ for this one ;-) For the first correct and nice done map. And here a link (not only) for people thinking this might be illegal (there have been some statements with words to this effect) http://www.heise.de/ct/Redaktion/bo/mobilfunk/dateiformat.html http://www.heise.de/ct/Redaktion/bo/mobilfunk/viag-netz.zip cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Am Mo 23. Juni 2008 schrieb Francesco Cat: the FreeRunner will have a true GPS integrated, not only an AGPS system, wouldn't it? Because I was given the address of this flyer: http://www.pulster.de/info/pdas/openmoko/freerunner-flyer.pdf and I hope it is just out-dated ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community AGPS is a true GPS, just a little bit faster ;-) /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS
Am Mo 23. Juni 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As I get it the AGPS is a 'true' GPS. The only differense is that agps is faster - it additionally uses signals from gsm stations for faster positioning. That's why it's called 'assisted gps'. Nope, it uses info from a AGPS-server somewhere in internet. This info is location specific for reducing bandwidth. As it is somewhat paradox you have to know where you are to use (A)GPS, one way is to look at GSM to get an idea of your approximate position. As well you could enter name of next big town by hand. GSM isn't exactly related to AGPS. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2.5mm or 3.5mm
The vote is closed. We decided to use 3.5mm. Please see original thread! /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possible Camera
Am Mi 18. Juni 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: i don't think it would be a problem. Simple avr processor can handle this camera. Yep, handle via I2C, no problem. But what are you going to do with the RGB-data-stream??? And here we have 400Mhz processor with i2c support. The question is do we have unused i2c bus to connect this camera? I2C is a bus. You don't have to have a unused one, you can share the existing system-wide I2C bus. But we don't have *any* sufficient number of GPIO spare on the CPU that you might use, not to mention there's a camera-interface that's dual-used for other things on FR. So no way to get the actual picture data to video-ram realtime for a viewfinder etc. Suggest: use USB /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OEM market,any thoughts about that??
Am Mo 16. Juni 2008 schrieb Al Johnson: On Sunday 15 June 2008, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Am Sa 14. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: A big percentage of requests I get are for this, however, they always want some hardware twist. They don't exactly know our hw, I guess (e.g it's not commonly known we have a low-voltage-RS232, I2C, and separate power feed on internal debug-con / testpoints). Also some mods on hw are quite easy to accomplish, either for us or for them. I suggest, you forward their requests to me, and I'll have a look at it and see what's feasible EE-side with reasonable effort/cost. Would be a pity to send them away, just because we didn't check what we can do for them, no? cheers jOERG Is there any documentation available for these interfaces? They may be a good alternative to USB for adding extra buttons, sensors or whatever in alternative cases. The debugcon should be kinda documented in the wiki IIRC. Most of the testpoints are documented right on the board by a printing. But no, I don't think there is a complete comprehensive doc yet. Maybe if I really don't know how to kill my time eventually... ;-) Anyway you're wellcome to ask. I'm not allowed to publish schematics, but I shall answer _every_ reasonable question regarding hardware. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Anyone working on a cron port?
Am So 15. Juni 2008 schrieb Peter J. Holzer: On 2008-06-15 02:29:48 -0700, ian douglas wrote: Suppose I could check the project page, but it's 2:30am and I'm tired and lazy. I was updating and installing some software on my Freerunner tonight to test mp3 playback and noticed again that there's still no mention of a cron engine in the opkg library. Anybody know if it's being worked on? I think that'd be an especially handy tool to have. I'd go so far as to call it 'essential', at least in my circumstance. I think a straight port of cron would be simple but not very useful. Cron is really designed for computers which run 24/7. A cron-like tool for a phone (or any other device which is suspended most of the time) at least needs the ability to wake up the device in time for a scheduled job to run and go back to suspend mode after it has finished. But many jobs usually don't need to run at a fixed time. They can just run the next time the device is woken up by the user. Or the next time the device has AC power. Yes, cron, at, and rtcwake have to be merged and augmented by awareness of powerstate (like kpowersave e.g) and some other environmental sensitivity (g-meters, GSM-signal etc) I really wonder why THIS wasn't a GSoC project... cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
Am So 15. Juni 2008 schrieb Mikael Lammentausta: User John running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running rm -rf /* because...? Because sudo can be configured to accept users in certain groups to run certain commands with or without a password. rm can be restricted, whereas opkg can be permitted without password. IMO, running everything as root introduces a whole world of possible exploitations without any real benefits. YEP, exactly. Really wonder whether ssh is open to GPRS :-o (I had to fire up GPRS to check, my simcard doesn't allow right now. shame on me :-/ ) For sure it's no good idea to run the web-browser as root. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Anyone working on a cron port?
Am So 15. Juni 2008 schrieb arne anka: anacron see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anacron #Drawbacks Also anacron doesn't address the rtcwake topic. We should plan for something more versatile that's merging cron(/anacron), at/batch, rtcwake, and the other powermanagement and wake-from-suspend reasons to make a nice cute task-scheduler /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
If you have root AND user, root can make a backup copy of user's valuable data every once in a while, and user or the virus she imported while browsing the web can NOT destroy this backup. I can't follow your arguments. It's NOT an evil person we need to fence in, it's bad behaviour of applications that go nuts on (virus|bug|user fault|*) If we don't start to care about this topic NOW, we will see lots of poor designed apps that rely on having root access where they shouldn't, and we end up in a situation like M$, where the whole system is so much root-centric that you simply can't switch to a sane user-management anymore, because it would break half the system. To fix those apps later is a major PITA. I just talked to Wolfgang Spraul and he answered But right now we are selling to hardcore developers only, so it's not our #1 priority. Once our software becomes more stable and mature, this needs to be addressed seriously. The good news is that the FOSS community is pretty paranoid about this, so I'm sure over time we will have a good solution. It's a FOSS project and you are the community, so just contribute! I'd say, do it *now*, as long as it's easy. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?
Am Sa 14. Juni 2008 schrieb Rok Jaklič: Hi. I am sorry to be just one of the other 2 billion people who want to buy this phone, but since I have to buy new phone, time is a pretty hard limit for me. Since phone is already being produced in factory does anyone has some estimated date when ordinary people could buy this phone? In German OM-Forum freeyourphone.de I read, [quote] www.truebox.co.uk hat geschrieben: We will be ready to ship Freerunner kits, to those of you who expressed an interest to buy before 6th June, on the 1st July (UK postage willing, in your hand next day). We will be emailing you more details soon. We may have others to ship on 1st July if you let us know you want one now. [/quote] No idea how they estimated this date. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OEM market,any thoughts about that??
Am Sa 14. Juni 2008 schrieb steve: A big percentage of requests I get are for this, however, they always want some hardware twist. They don't exactly know our hw, I guess (e.g it's not commonly known we have a low-voltage-RS232, I2C, and separate power feed on internal debug-con / testpoints). Also some mods on hw are quite easy to accomplish, either for us or for them. I suggest, you forward their requests to me, and I'll have a look at it and see what's feasible EE-side with reasonable effort/cost. Would be a pity to send them away, just because we didn't check what we can do for them, no? cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Invisible Shield
Am So 15. Juni 2008 schrieb Ajit Natarajan: Hi Steve, I recall a message posted a few days ago that Invisible Shield is willing to make a custom full body protector for FR if they can get a unit in house. Any update on whether a unit can be sent to them or if a unit has already been sent? Thanks. Ajit Hey, Ajit. I already told you they shall apply directly by using their official office address, so we have some guarantee they intend to do some useful thing and will send back the device. Please don't nag. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Chris Wright: Since the alternative to using QVGA is using VGA with a faster GPU and processor, One last time: ...OR USING VGA IN QVGA MODE WITH SAME PROCESSOR, AND SWITCH TO VGA WHENEVER YOU NEED THIS RESOLUTION. It's all about nothing else than just saving some 5 bucks on the screen (which probably will not apply whenever this comes to reality, because you have to buy QVGA-screens from antiquities collectors then), and the allegedly *better* (huh?) quality of QVGA when compared to a VGA in QVGA-mode. All of this are moot arguments!!! and this is a phone that runs on batteries, I'm inclined to encourage the use of QVGA on future Openmoko phones. And WTF is the rationale behind this??? You're suggesting we should use slower cpu for saving battery or what? Yeah our GTA04 will probably have 8bit cpu and a 7-segment display, but no screen at all, and 4000h of standby time. (btw: standby isn't related to cpu-power-consumption at all) I have a phone from 2002 with a battery that used to last a week; it annoys me to deal with much less than that. Don't ask what I'm annoyed of! Aaahrg, really sorry, but [ignore thread] now (last one of hw-dev leaving pointless discussion). /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why not use foru
Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb arne anka: Plus, forums usually have provisions for storage and selective notifications. you mail client doesn't store your email? wow! :) do you store everry mail? No, kmail does (since I managed to do pop3-alike msg-retrieving over imap. IMAP SUCKS) as somebody said, the signal/noise-ratio here is rather bad (and i know, this thread is adding to it), take the iphone-prices and -plans thread(s), so there's a lot of mails one would delete -- but still sometimes you You're DELETING mails? Fella, get you a decent harddisk! Not worth the electric energy and keyboard wear. know, you read something in a amil long deleted and need to find it again. Your fault. Just too bad. If you delete, you should know what you do. I just go do a sweep search over my mail archive. but, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/ offers an archive, though it would be nice if every mail in thread)/date/user/... view has a visible timestamp appended. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why not use forum?
Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb AVee: On Thursday 12 June 2008 17:30, Leonti Bielski wrote: Hi! I was wondering - why are we not using forum for community? It's much better to view, you can subscribe and unsubscribe to the topics you want and etc. The main Personally I don't like mailing list because it's not that comfortable and I can see no advatages of using mailing list instead of forum? Can anyone explain to me why we can't install We really aren't going to redo this discussion again, are we? Last time we had these discussion[1] it ended up with some seting up a forum[2] on http://forums.makeopensource.com/ Go there and be happy with your forum if thats what you really want, but please stop redoing the same discussion over and over again. AVee [1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/thread.html [2] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-July/008008.html -- Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community Thanks for this post! :-) I suggest stopping this thread now, due to everybodies lack of anything new to contribute. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
Am Sa 14. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: On 6/13/08, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Nijs wrote: no problems. what i don't want is people to get their hopes up. this was in the context of people asking if they can play vga video and me going good luck!. there is reality - and you can sit and hack away spend lots of time and get 1 case to work, and work well. as i said - it will depend on codec, bitrate, quality etc. mpeg4 decode in hw is great - but remember it is also limiting to just mp4 - all your mpeg1, ogg, etc. videos will not work. also as long as mplayer is accessing glamo hardware it must run as root. admittedly we run everything as root - but come the day when we don't... this is trouble. Hi. Can someone clear up for me why everything runs as root? When I heard the iPhone ran everything as root I kinda sneered at it but now I can't be so smug. What are the engineering reasons for this? The reason is that the user normally wants to run a lot of root applications such as rdate, power off, opkg, etc. Of course this should be solved, but it should not be a top priority. My opinion is averse. There's no valid reason to abandon the very simple concept of users, groups, and permissions, just to have an easy start on development (fixing apps later on is a PITA). If you don't care from beginning, you'll end up where Vista is right now. Where is the problem to chmod any file in /dev, /sys, etc. to do rdate, power off, opkg etc (ok, for opkg I myself would prefer to be asked for root pw). Or make apps SUID! Do we really have to repeat this annoyance yet *another* time? If the user *really* wants to run these apps in the way you assumed (being pissed off to relogin as root), why not use ageold mechanisms like sudoers, wheel etc? To me it seems this is an *extreme* inattentiveness of developers, even worse a ridiculous one. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why not use newsgroup?
Am Fr 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Martin Bernreuther: Am Freitag, 13. Juni 2008 schrieb Alexey Feldgendler: By default you just download the headers without having to get the text of every message, You can do that with IMAP, which is the modern protocol for accessing your mail. You can receive only the headers on the IMAP server??? We're NOT talking about downloading only the headers from the IMAP server to a client machine, right? If the email is on the IMAP server, it's already too late: you've got the email (with an impact to your quota) and you have to get rid of it. just move to /mydev/null. Real bargain: only 2cent/meg. We care! *MyDev*, get rid of your data ;-) /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OEM market,any thoughts about that??
I thought about similar things some time ago. This device makes for a nice embedded controller for industries etc. For sure it will be no big problem to sell without housing, and save a few bucks per device. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Click Feedback?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Esben Stien: That would be an extremely negligible latency and it would give us real time dropout less audio on the device, which is pretty crucial on such a thing as a phone. You really want dropouts in the audio when you use your system during a call?. There will be NO dropouts (at least for call audio). The GSM audio path isn't routed through the system, it's direct way [mic - 8753-mixer - GSM] analog only (by default, you may change this). We don't need low latency on a device like this, we need a way to mix concurrent sounds (like alsa dmix is supposed to do) in a way that's not eating up our cpu-resources. Low latency on audio means some 10 milliseconds, and is important for musicians, maybe powergamers, but very much ot for a handheld device. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Acceleration in our pockets
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Peter Nijs: Isn't the shared bus an advantage because now it can use DMA? Maybe that's why it is possible to hook up an sd-card to the glamo anyway. I see no other explanation why one would put an sd cardreader in a graphics ship. Please tell me if and why I'm wrong. Peter Good point. Would make perfect sense... /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual SIM?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Bumbl: would it, in theory, be possible to emulate a 2nd sim-card which was inserted and saved on the flash memory before and switch between it and the inserted one? SIM cards implement an on-board crypographic authentication mechanism that simply can't be downloaded and saved somewhere else. You may download and copy your contacts, that's it. Noting else. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual SIM?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Yorick Matthys: this should do the trick: http://ucables.com/ref/2-SIMS-IN1 or http://ucables.com/ref/SIM-CLONE you still need the IMSI and Ki numbers, but those can be obtained (at least that is what i read a long while ago) but emulating would be much more fun :) [quote] System Requirements: Software works best with Windows98 IMPORTANT NOTE: The device is only compatible with GSM SIM COMP128-V1, If you try to read a SIM card bought since June 2002 you may not be able to do it, because phone operator companies are changing the algorhythm for the implementation of KI and IMSI encryptation. [/quote] Do you have MORE THAN ONE simcard that's older than 6years and you still want to use them? /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual SIM?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb David Pottage: On Thu, June 12, 2008 3:21 pm, Bumbl wrote: would it, in theory, be possible to emulate a 2nd sim-card which was inserted and saved on the flash memory before and switch between it and the inserted one? In theory this is possible if you can extract the 128 bit crypto key inside the SIM which is used to authenticate the SIM card to the network. Because of weaknesses in the crypto algorithms used by GSM it is possible to extract that secret from a SIM card using about 60 000 chosen challenges, which can be done in about 12 hours. (assuming the SIM card does not have a retry counter) If you manage to do all of that, then yes you could have as software copy of one or more SIM cards and switch between them, thought the GSM module will only ever be able to use one at a time. And our GSM-module uses the card inserted in the reader by directly connecting to it, in the first place. You probably could emulate sim-auth profile over BT to the AT-port of GSM-module, though. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [OT]Re: Why not use forum?
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Loughran: The developers must prefer mailing lists. The day these lists go web-forum, I probably have to quit my job. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 speculation [UNOFFICIAL]
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Ron K. Jeffries: I am the one who predicted GTA03 in December 2008 here's my reasoning for targeting that date. as an aside, I think December is the LATEST date GTA03 will see the light of day. With the modest changes being made in GTA03, it would almost be irrelevant if delayed past then. GTA03 is a fairly small re-spin of GTA02. They are not doing anything very risky. The biggest change is a new GSM radio that supports EDGE, which is much faster than GPRS that GTA02 has. Well the old modem chipset is very... uncomfortable to cope with (FW etc), and it's EOL I heard. Anyway the hw-changes aren't this big for the rest of the circuit, to handle a new GSM-module. After all it's a module ;-) second, the Glamo graphics chip added to GTA02 (not in GTA01) was a disaster, pure and simple. so it will be ripped out. GTA01 is working without, so it seems not to be a risky adventure to kick it. third, the headset connector will change to 3.5 mm. I suspect but can not prove that there will also be improvements and cleanup in the audio circuitry. they are adding a camera to GTA03, which is a good thing. And looks like low risk. Simple interface. Well you never know... :-/ the case design will evidently be changed significantly. OpenMoko are NOT doing major surgery vs GTA02, such as switching to a new processor CONCLUSION for someone who is anxious to ~develop~ on Freerunner GTA02 is THE model to buy, because time is of the essence. for someone who has a reasonable alternative, and will mainly be a Freeruner USER rather than developer, it may or may not make sense to wait for GTA03. I have ZERO repeat NO (!!)inside information, so I may well be totally WRONG. There's nothing I can correct you, though I'm also not sure about many of the details you stated, and this is *no* verification of what you mentioned. My Motto Of The Year: plans change quickly... /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 speculation [UNOFFICIAL]
Am Do 12. Juni 2008 schrieb Ken Young: Ron K. Jeffries wrote: GTA03 is a fairly small re-spin of GTA02. They are not doing anything very risky. The biggest change is a new GSM radio that supports EDGE, which is much faster than GPRS that GTA02 has. Do we know if the problem which reduced the number of usable GSM frequencies from four to three will be fixed on the GTA03? To me, that seems like at least as big a problem as the Glamo. Nah, if you're not travelling twice a week around the whole world, you can happily live even with a dual-band cellphone on nearly every place in the world. For *me*, quad-band is very low priority on any phone I consider to buy. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Dual SIM?
Am Mi 11. Juni 2008 schrieb Adilson Oliveira: So, cells like the samsung d880 just swap electrically between the 2 SIM cards? The spec say you can use both cards at the same time but don't say exactly what same time means. There are phones out there that use 2 or 3 cards true-concurrently. I'm speaking of modules we can use for freerunner - I don't know of any that's supporting this feature. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Di 10. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 17:16:06 +0800 Wilkinson, Alex [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: 0n Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 01:43:08PM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: we are in a world where to get gfx support to run such high resolutions means we need to have closed drivers. and that is not Curious, why is that ? graphics is the most intensive thing your device is likely to do in terms of processing. if you want soft drop shadows, alpha blending (and trust me - everyone is drooling for it out there - the iphone is doing it already) the No, I won't trust you here! I give a SH*T on soft shadows, even on my desktop. I switch off animation because I think it's annoying waste of time to see the same movie over and over. Alpha blending? Eeew! Useless. Every single argument been mentioned multiple times here. Redundance. GTA03 has VGA - period! 04 even better i'd bet on it. 05 virtually no-one even thinking of now, not to mention sourceability of parts when it's coming to real. And now I'm definitely stopping to feed this tro.. er, thread, which btw seems nobody is looking on the weird subject any more :-/ ETX jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions
full ACK /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: No 3G for GTA03, 2G/EDGE only?
Am Mi 11. Juni 2008 schrieb ian douglas: As an aside, when comparing 2G and 3G: Even according to Apple, the new iPhone 3G model will get up to 10 hours of talk time on 2G but half as long (5 hours) in 3G mode. I'd love to learn more about how voice quality differs between 2G and 3G -- if a future GTA device gets 3G capability, I'd probably want to limit my calling to 2G but switch to 3G for data, if that'd even be possible. I heard Nokia needs a reboot to switch, and eats battery as if there's no tomorrow on 3G ;-) /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
Am Mo 9. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: On 6/9/08, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/6/9 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]: With a modular design like that, then you could have one device shipped out with many configurations possible. You could then buy the external case for playing games, one with a keyboard, etc. That would really set it appart. So how about thinking of th 03 and onward in such a modular way? Oh, my vote is for usb. I would also vote for a USB connection. Easier to set up, and the peripheral can take power from the phone. It is good that the Y cable is invented:) Was a fun and a pleasure ;-) You're welcome! /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb rakshat hooja: We also got a camera on GTA03. cheers jOERG Any specs of the camera. This was a quote of a previous posting of another OM-engineer (Carsten IIRC). Honestly I'm designing on the actual schematics and I have no idea yet about any camera specs at all. As mentioned before: plans change rapidly sometimes. ;-) And quote GTA03 is about evolution, not revolution/quote BTW the thread was/is about case design (which btw isn't my job anyway) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: InvisibleShield screen protectors
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Yorick Matthys: Does anybody know if the FreeRunner's case is adequatly scratch-resistant? (I'll post this question on the device-owner list) It's like every of those mockup-rubber softtouch-surfaces: amazingly insensitive to small scratches, but especially on aged plastics (probably when the softener has evaporated partly over the times, tested for some GTA01 case) you can eventually peel off the whole maybe 0.05mm thin coating with your fingernail by applying brute force, creating a e.g. 0.05x1.5x10mm bold scratch. So in some respect it's more sturdy than ordinary shiny plastic which gets dull by lots of microscopic scars very easy, in some respect the damage done to it is more severe when it ever happens (you probably couldn't scratch any other plastic, like the one found on the two outer 'rings' of Neo's case, with your fingernail). I have a 15 year old sony scoopman with same kind of surface. It has been living in my pocket for ~10y 24/7/365, and still looks pretty good. It has one ~1.0x1.5mm scratch of the kind described above, and one corner got shiny, rest almost as new. To use a screenprotector sounds like a good idea to me. Best way would be to remove the front lid (see wiki on how to do that) and place an oversized one directly on the LCM. You may use any type of protector that meets your taste and is large enough to cut it to fit. Just my 2 €cent, YMMV /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Carsten Haitzler: but there is definitely a i want as insane a dpi as i can get group here. this is for sure. the question is - is it really the majority of users. :) No it's not at all the question - other than for academic insight. If a VGA-screen isn't much more expensive than a Q, if we can drive a VGA as Q without problem or speed-penalty to do sane video etc., and if it's correct we used a VGA so far - we won't change this. No way! cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is case design changing for GTA03?
Am So 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Ron K. Jeffries: I'm almost sure I read a comment saying (in passing) that Freerunner case design will change for GTA03. Is the change strictly to accommodate the new 3.5mm plug for the headset, or are other changes being considered? We also got a camera on GTA03. Changes will be significantly more noticeable than only making a 2.5mm hole 3.5mm ;-). Let me put it this way: probably we won't even consider to ship a lanyard for accessory. ;-) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flemming Richter Mikkelsen: When it comes to GTA03, I will not buy one (because I buy the GTA02), so I will not be the target. Maybe QVGA is a good solution, or maybe it should be an option when you buy If I got that right, we just need to tune some of the LCD-driver settings, to get QVGA performance on a VGA screen(OWTTE). So the ONLY argument for a QVGA screen is the marginal lower price (and it allegedly looks better than a VGA in QVGA mode which I don't understand) - but this would clearly be no bargain at all if we go for more expensive offer of QVGA *OR* VGA option. Absolute nonsense, it costs 100 somecoin to replace the screen with a 30 somecoin cheaper one 'on customer order'. I opt for VGA and give us a way to drive it QVGA whenever speed is a main concern (think someone said this before?). For GTA03 I'd prefer to have the SAME LCM as GTA02, just to reduce design risk. NO capacitive ts, NO QVGA LCD screen! :-/ Just my 2 cents from HW-dev /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
Am Do 5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh: AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple satellite triangulation. It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all possible channels and download the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and alm in uBlox paper. [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in sub-meter accuracy. Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after typing the above. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
Am Fr 6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flyin_bbb8: just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems to get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System). Aaaaha, I seen it being used for all sorts of archeology and buildings construction purposes. And from the info in the uBlox-paper, regarding the protocol options it doesn't seem to me like there is much chance for better precision by the way they do A-GPS. Better precision would mean info on meteorological interference (like exact amount clouds on the way to sat) at the very location of the receiver. To get this, you need... a reference receiver, so we are at D-GPS again. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode
Am Mi 4. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Green: Somebody in the thread at some point said: | On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:53:29AM -0700, Matt Mets wrote: | I believe this has been discussed at some point, but there is a | file-storage module that emulates a mass storage device: | http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/file_storage.html | | I don't see it included in the preview ASU package, but it should be | trivial to build separately. | | The issue (that I see, anyway) is that it requires exclusive access to | the drive that it uses for the storage. | | I think we could get around with pretending to be a digital camera / media | player instead. IIRC the protocol prefered by windows for these is more | like a file server protocol (i.e. commands at file level) although maybe | windows doesn't allow to download files from media players and may not | allow to upload on cameras. | But that should get around the exclusive access problem. | | Also there could be an image file which is shared via USB storage so no | need to unmount the SD card. That is true, Joerg also mentioned a separate partition which works as well. Each requires a fixed allocation of storage from the medium but it isn't death. The thing that bothers me is the effective requirement to force unmount the filesystem either way. It's for sure you wanted that filesystem mounted in the device when it isn't presented as mass storage gadget, so it limits you to scenarios where you never hold the files in there open long term. So media playing or camera kind of usage would be OK as we are familiar with from mp3 players as mass storage, but there are many other kinds of access that hold a handle open on the file long term, eg, database file. Especially when it's your /home that is getting shared, on a Linux box you might have a few painful bleeding stumps if you plugged it in and forced umount (which some folk anyway deliver by looking in lsof -n | grep mountpoint and killing everything). Another side of it is I use the GTA02 tethered by USB cable to a host for power and Ethernet-over-USB access, if I used the mass storage gadget as well then I would likely not want the modal behaviour that my storage filesystem is forced unmounted the whole while I am hooked to the host. I would transfer files and then want to do something with the files during a session. These objections don't really kill mass storage gadget as something to consider, but sharing a filesystem at the network layer just doesn't have these problems and acts like we are used to in normal Linux usage. ~ It's annoying that basically Windows will drive us to decide which way to jump or if to implement both, but there we are. Sometimes it's quite inspiring to look to the ways others cope with the issue. Nokia for instance is popping up a requester asking whether you want to have mass storage profile or [fill in any conflicting mode here], then when you select mass storage device it even disconnects GSM and blocks UI (I've been told) - I'd guess they have the same kind of problems and solved them by doing what we would call init 1. And hey, we can do same - no? Not cute, but very clean and simple. Probably when you want mass storage, you have to live with solutions like this. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode
Am Mi 4. Juni 2008 schrieb Andy Green: Somebody in the thread at some point said: Yes init 1 sounds like the kind of medicine that matches the problem, but actually doing telinit 1 when you want to share storage is pretty harsh. I know it's a bit unfair but imagine if that was how things were on a Linux laptop. Actually that's the way things are on laptops (admittedly Mac). You hold a button on boot, and the whole device is nothing but a very expensive external USB(/firewire)-storage device. Even they didn't consider to have any UI up during this mode. AFAIK (No Mac here) Anyway to me it's not of this high priority to have WixXXx-compatible mass storage. As long as things will PnP with all kinda *nix-systems. so just my 2 €cent jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: duplicate mail
Am Mi 4. Juni 2008 schrieb Philippe Guillebert: Hi list, Am I the only one to get some of the e-mails on this list twice ou more ? looks like the issue is back ... didn't motice it lately. But it's individual issue, seems we won't fix it. I do an occasional CTRL-* on my mail-UA to delete all duplicates (that's kmail) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: TinyURL [Was: OT: ajax image galleries]
Am Do 5. Juni 2008 schrieb AVee: On Wednesday 04 June 2008 22:55, Andy Powell wrote: tinyurl is useful instead of typing in twattishly long urls which many sites insist on using. Generally you don;t want to click on a link provided by someone you don't know/trust. Not only that but if I use this url as an example - look what your mail client / this mailing list does to it (break it on wrap) If looked, the long url is perfectly fine, on one line and clickable. So the mailing list doesn't break anything, neither does does my mail client. Having said that, tinyurl might actually make live easier for some people (e.g. those who should get a decent mail client), I don't 'hate' them. But please at least also include the original url. These mails are archived and both the email and the linked page may outlive the tinyurl service. You might end up loosing usefull information there. +1. Never consider to click a tiny-url /j btw: my URLs I see aren't mangled in any way btw2: html-only postings are skipped by default @admin: could we have a filter for this? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OT: TinyURL
Am Do 5. Juni 2008 schrieb Stroller: On 4 Jun 2008, at 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote: ... TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for abuse: 1: Discover browser 0-day exploit 2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website 3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery 4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it 5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit Or even easier: 1: Link to goatse. TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it. TinyURL itself protects you from this. All you do is go to http://tinyurl.com/preview.php, click on the enable previews link and it sets a cookie on your PC. Thereafter, everytime you click on a TinyURL link it shows you first what website the link redirects to, and you then have to click again to make a manual redirection. Maybe your email client is perfect, and never has a problem with mangled URLs, but for the rest of us TinyURL is very useful. Stroller. Aww,forget it signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)
I'm just working on improving the schematics (like quite some other guys of OM staff), but we at EE are not deciding on key features of future products, we are provided with specs on what to design. Anyway your suggestions and requests will be noticed when posted in this list. cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Our new Main page of wiki
Am Mo 5. Mai 2008 schrieb steve: Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=sita.openmoko.org) by sita.openmoko.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1K32Dg-0001Yg-F5; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:04:32 +0200 Received: from smtp115.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.88]) by sita.openmoko.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jt5nq-0005hh-NB for community@lists.openmoko.org; Mon, 05 May 2008 20:52:59 +0200 WOW! yahoo is great ;-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gsmd correctness question
Am Mo 2. Juni 2008 schrieb Bin Chen: Hi, I am just looking at the code of gsmd2, I doubt whether a condition has been processed. Suppose a command is send but during the wait time of the response, another unsolicited command sent to the AP and the name is the same: AT+CREG? +CREG: 2 (1) +CREG: 0,1 (2) The (1) is an unsolicited command from BP side but the (2) is the actual response for the AT+CREG? A brief googling and look at AT+CREG? makes me think this never will happen. I guess +CREG: response should be always the same, no matter whether solicited or unsolicited. An unsolicited response may occur on right mode (CREG=1 or 2) whenever cell reselect or sth like that happens. Your response under (2) tells mode=0, status=1 which due to the 0-mode wouldn't allow for unsolicited creg-responses. Not thoroughly checked though. Please compare format of possible unsolicited creg-answers. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Our new Main page of wiki
Am Mo 2. Juni 2008 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: Am Mo 5. Mai 2008 schrieb steve: Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=sita.openmoko.org) by sita.openmoko.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1K32Dg-0001Yg-F5; Mon, 02 Jun 2008 07:04:32 +0200 Received: from smtp115.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.88]) by sita.openmoko.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jt5nq-0005hh-NB for community@lists.openmoko.org; Mon, 05 May 2008 20:52:59 +0200 WOW! yahoo is great ;-) Ooops, no! It's sita.openmoko. Thanks for moderating our mail! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: gsmd correctness question
Am Mo 2. Juni 2008 schrieb Michael 'Mickey' Lauer: On Monday 02 June 2008 11:34:07 Bin Chen wrote: I am just looking at the code of gsmd2, I doubt whether a condition has been processed. Suppose a command is send but during the wait time of the response, another unsolicited command sent to the AP and the name is the same: AT+CREG? +CREG: 2 (1) +CREG: 0,1 (2) The (1) is an unsolicited command from BP side but the (2) is the actual response for the AT+CREG? command, if this case happens, has gsmd2 processed it correctly? I don't know about gsmd2 offhand, however in general there are two ways to deal with this problem: 1.) Disable sending unsolicited responses between commands. There's a 07.07 command to control that. 2.) Allow sending unsolicited responses at all times (this is better for latency) and dedicate an own GSM channel for unsolicited responses. Which latency? /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)
I'm not sure about my NDA, but this topic has been around quite some while
now. So mickeyl says it's about evolution, not revolution. GTA03 -the
recycled name- (which I'm working on the electric schematics of the device
right now) is an improved version of GTA02 (if plans don't change ;), fixing
some bugs/annoyances/EndOfLive-chips-issues of GTA02/FR (like kicking
glamo) and introducing some gimmicks not worth (IMHO) to mention in the tech
specs (mostly design). We will have a 3.5mm audio connector mostly compliant
to
http://content.omtp.org/Lists/Publications/Attachments/36/OMTP_Local_Connectivity_Wired_Analogue_Audio_v1_0.pdf
(augmented with some of my weird ideas like stereo line-in, if it pans out)
and it's our first goal to make a (even more) stable device based on what we
done so far.
GTA04 OTOH is about breaking new shores trying to bring exiting new power to
the Neo line.
{{to the best of my knowledge this info is not exceeding a summary of what's
been already published by others in IRC and mailing lists so far. Maybe Sean,
our boss, likes to give more detail}}
Nobody should wait for GTA03 if you decided you like have an 02 (for some of
the GTA01 owners YMMV).
GTA04 is a different thing and I dare to assume won't escape of vaporware
status this year.
All this been told to you by some other person ;-). Plans change rapidly
sometimes. Please don't quote me when you think you have to complain about I
dunno.
Your hardware development guy
jOERG
Am Di 3. Juni 2008 schrieb Sergey Volkov:
Hello, openmoko community.
I have a question regarding future products of Openmoko. Wiki says
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA that GTA03 is actually HXD8, a car
navigation system. This claim is based on a post by Michael Lauer,
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017061.html.
But IMHO that inference is not obvious:
Martin Bernreuther writes:
looking at the Wiki, there're also speculations about another Neo-like
device:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8
This seems not to correspond to the GTA04. (Maybe HXD8==GTA03?)
Is there a more complete roadmap about the Neo-Productline somewhere?
And Michael Lauer replies:
device: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8
This cat is long out of the box. It's the Dash Express device.
For me the actual question of GTA03 vs. GTA04 remains unanswered.
Also, Michael Lauer recently posted
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/003020.html
following on the openmoko-kernel list:
I don't want to talk too much about future products, but I would vote
against
going away from NAND for 03 -- there's too many business risks. 03 is
about
evolution. 04 is revolution.
This makes the issue completely unclear, esp. GTA03 part. AFAIK (my
opinion stems from
the discussion which took place in May on the hardware list) GTA04 is
a brand new
device based on a more advanced SoC. But it's very hard to find any info on
03.
Could anybody unveil the GTA03 mystery? What are the hardware specs, will
the
shared-slow-videoRAM-bus issue be fixed (for me it's the main reason
to wait for the
next device)?
Any comments from openmoko employees are especially welcome ! (:
PS don't kick me too hard, it's my first post to this list (;
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Re: Private data protection.
Am So 1. Juni 2008 schrieb Kim Alvefur: On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 10:55 +0300, Ilja O. wrote: Also portable self-destruction hardware would be nice. echo overload /sys/devices/blaha/battery LOL :-) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner test
Am Sa 31. Mai 2008 schrieb Mike Montour: Kevin Dean wrote: I'd like to reconfirm this before reporting, or at least kill my theory before reporting on it and creating a false lead. It seems that the SIM itself is important. Two likely factors affecting GSM buzz are: which band it's using (850 or 1900), and the transmitted signal strength (how far it is from the tower). If you had SIMs from different carriers I could easily see these factors being different. I can't think of a reason that two SIMs from the same carrier would differ, except for randomness in which tower it happened to use. It looks like one of the 'Engineering Mode' AT commands can at least report which band you're on and the base-station ID. There is also a transmit power field listed, but when I tested it a minute ago it was always 0. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA01_gsm_modem#Serving_Cell_Information_.282.2C1.29 you read this field during a call when actually transmitting audio (NO silence)? For the rest: ACK /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode
Am Sa 31. Mai 2008 schrieb Lally Singh: On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: wild speculation Having two memory card slots (one for OS, one easy accessible for usage with changeable memory cards) could be nicer than standard (current) architecture. You flush operating system with simple card reader. Ant this eliminates need in backup OS (currently stored in NOR flash, afaik). Also this would make phones' main memory easy expandable. It sounds nice! /wild speculation Also, a second, externally-accessible slot would be nice for external peripherals that need more than what USB can provide. You're talking about bandwidth of SD vs USB1.1, not 500mA power supply, right? /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2.5mm or 3.5mm
Am Sa 31. Mai 2008 schrieb Mike Montour: Joerg Reisenweber wrote: your link: that's it Thanks for sharing your thoughts and giving this link If you do choose a 4-pin 3.5mm connector to be compatible with iPhone (or with another major vendor), please double-check that you use the same pin assignments. This forum post: http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=5262651 says that the iPhone plug uses: tip=R, ring1=L, ring2=Common, sleeve=Mic (which is not what I would have guessed). WAAH, they're NOT compatible to usual headphones which have tip1=L 2=R, (3)=4=GND. 3=GND, 4=mic makes their HS inoperable with any usual Walkman, though you still can use Walkman HP on their IPhone (the jack shorts 3 + 4). base4 is sleeve = shielding by definition and by design of jacks, so this is a bad choice for mic signal :-((( What a crap is THIS? Our design goal is to be compatible to classic 3.5mm headphones at very first, (while still supporting full mic functionality for HS) so at least left and right won't be connected the way apple does. In fact we already did and will follow / stay close to: Nokia AV-connector spec. http://www.forum.nokia.com/main/resources/technologies/connectivity/av_connector.html and maybe augment this. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner test
Am Sa 31. Mai 2008 schrieb Mike Montour: Joerg Reisenweber wrote: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA01_gsm_modem#Serving_Cell_Information_.282.2C1.29 you read this field during a call when actually transmitting audio (NO silence)? I called the Neo from my other (non-GSM) phone and listened to that other phone. The Neo was transmitting some audio, although it was only its GSM buzz and an echo of the audio from the other phone. So transmitter should be !=0 then, I guess. Looks like a bug. Please try to do multiple readings of this value, while making sure there is some real data (voice) to actually transmit. Reading of tx-pwr might be very momentary. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
2.5mm or 3.5mm
Hi community! A short poll: on a future GTA0x (2), would you prefer to have A) standard 2.5mm headset (mic+phones) connector, where you have to buy a cheap adapter if you want to use your old headphones, (the way like it's for GTA01/02) or B) classic 3.5mm headphones Walkman(R) connector, where you have to DIY an adapter for any standard cellphone headset? (or does anybody know of 3.5mm headSET standards or adapters?) please hurry to vote, we have to make a decision. Thanks cheers jOERG Openmoko-HW-development signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: kids phone
Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello, I'm contemplating making a kids phone from a Freerunner. I'm supposing the software part will be doable: - interface with a few large icons - it should be possible to make a call to the phone and it will answer automatically in a particular state. Also I will need some form of case that is fairly sturdy and protects the touch screen. - How thick can a protective cover be while the touch screen still works? No actual tests done, but I think a relatively flexible material may have a decent thickness if you only need finger-touch precision. /jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: 2.5mm or 3.5mm
Am Fr 30. Mai 2008 schrieb niclone: Joerg Reisenweber a écrit : Hi community! A short poll: on a future GTA0x (2), would you prefer to have A) standard 2.5mm headset (mic+phones) connector, where you have to buy a cheap adapter if you want to use your old headphones, (the way like it's for GTA01/02) or B) classic 3.5mm headphones Walkman(R) connector, where you have to DIY an adapter for any standard cellphone headset? (or does anybody know of 3.5mm headSET standards or adapters?) B) 3.5mm or C) 3.5mm with 4 contacts, BUT backward compatible with standard 3.5mm headphones jacks. This mean that the mic contact must be the one which is far from the ground contact, not at the tip one like in GTA01 (and GTA02?) C) is exactly what we planned thus far. You can easily create an adapter from 3.5mm 4ring male to 2.5mm GTA01/2-style receptacle. Anyway I didn't see these adapters for sale anywhere, so I came with this poll to you. Thanks everybody for your quick answers. Seems 3.5 is very popular and we planned for he right thing :-) cheers jOERG signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
