Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- They real issue is not how many Jews were killed. One was too many. The real issue is that certain people claim that the Holocaust was ONLY about Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth. For details see: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/26.html Holocaust = A burnt sacrifice to god. This is a Jewish concept, from the Jewish bible. It was applied to the Jews who were gassesd and sent up in smoke. This is NOT a generic term for genocide. Can you gentiles understand this or do you need me to break it down into monosyllables? When you use the term holocaust, you are ONLY talking about the Jewish part of what happened in Christian Europe to the Jews. If you want to generalize about genocide, then you have to use a different word. If you say that the Germans practiced genocide in WWII, that would include the Gypsies, the Jews, the Orthodox Serbs and some I don't know about. When Jews talk about the holocaust they talk about their own part of it. If you would like to talk about a different part of WWII make up you own word. Joshua2 A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- Yardbird wrote: -Caveat Lector- I don't dispute anything you posted Kris regarding Finkelstein's claims. What I find interesting is that Finkelstein comes from a far left ideological position where questioning the motives of such figures as Elie Weisel is frowned upon usually. The problem here is that you don't know what you are talking about. It is precisely on the extreme left that you find the most extreme criticism of people like Weisel and the general Jewish establishment. It is strongly anti- Zionist, and with many of them, anti Jewish. But then again I have no idea what may be motivating Finkelstein; nevertheless, it is an intriguing dialogue that deserves to be followed by anyone familiar with the topic. The point I feel that is most relevant in his argument is his notion that abuses of the repayment shemes have led to little of this money being placed in the hands of the actual victims This is absolutely true. My mother is a graduate of Auschwitz and has yet to see any of the piddling dribble reach her. This is a shakedown. It's being carried out by the usual suspects. Greedy elites and their shyster henchman. In this case all the characters are Jews. and that Eastern Europe is due for some form of "shakedown" or "extortion" from the same organizations that are abusing the aforementioned system. I wouldn't feel too sorry for the Germans and the Swiss and the Poles and the others. They got away with murder, and their elites got away with most of the stolen wealth. THESE greedy elites with their shyster henchman are Catholics and protestants. Jamieson The lesson here is NEVER TRUST YOUR ELITES. Joshua2 -- CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMEN -- JUST VOTE FOR A CORPORATION A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/26/00 8:18:01 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : That means 8 million in May 1945. Well, there were fewer than 8 million : Jews in all of Nazi-occupied Europe. In other words, if these numbers are : correct, the Holocaust didn't happen. As my mother used to say, if everyone : who claims to be a Holocaust survivor actually is one, who did Hitler kill?" from: http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar - How many Jews were in areas that came to be controlled by the Germans before the war? 15. How many Jews were in areas that came to be controlled by the Germans before the war? The IHR says (original): Fewer than four million. The IHR says (revised): Fewer than six million. Nizkor replies: Didn't they just say in question 1 that there were "no credible demographic statistics"? About three million in Poland, a million in Hungary, more than a million in the area of Russia occupied by the Nazis, and many, many more all over Europe. According to the Nazis' own figures given in the Wannsee Protocol, there were eleven million Jews in occupied Europe in 1942. See the reply to question 1. Note also that if real historians had changed a Holocaust-related estimate from six million to four million or vice versa, the "revisionists" would be repeating it and citing it as proof that historians are changing their story and don't have any real figures to back up what they say. But when the revisionists change their own figures by two million, they don't raise much of a fuss, it seems. 1. What proof exists that the Nazis practiced genocide or deliberately killed six million Jews? The IHR says (original, Samisdat, and revised versions combined): None. The only evidence is the postwar testimony of individual "survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and no "survivor" claims to have actually witnessed any gassing. There are no contemporaneous documents and no hard evidence whatsoever: no mounds of ashes, no crematoria capable of disposing of millions of corpses, no piles of clothes, no human soap, no lamp shades made of human skin, no records, no credible demographic statistics. Nizkor replies: Lie piled upon lie, with not a shred of proof. This is as good a place as any to present some detailed evidence which is consistently ignored, as a sort of primer on Holocaust denial. It will make this reply much longer than the other sixty-five, but perhaps the reader will understand the necessity for this. Let's look at their claims one at a time: * Supposedly the only evidence, "the postwar testimony of individual survivors." First of all, consider the implicit conspiracy theory. Notice how the testimony of every single inmate of every Nazi camp is automatically dismissed as unconvincing. This total dismissal of inmates' testimony, along with the equally-total dismissal of the Nazis' own testimony (!), is the largest unspoken assumption of Holocaust-denial. This assumption, which is not often spelled out, is that the attempted Jewish genocide never took place, but rather that a secret conspiracy of Jews, starting around 1941, planted and forged myriad documents to prove that it did; then, after the war, they rounded up all the camp survivors and told them what to say. The conspirators also supposedly managed to torture hundreds of key Nazis into confessing to crimes which they never committed, or into framing their fellow Nazis for those crimes, and to plant hundreds of documents in Nazi files which were never discovered until after the war, and only then, in many cases, by sheer luck. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several telling entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148): February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness. March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor. Michael Shermer has pointed out that the Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.) In any case, most of the diary is quite mundane, and interesting
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- I don't dispute anything you posted Kris regarding Finkelstein's claims. What I find interesting is that Finkelstein comes from a far left ideological position where questioning the motives of such figures as Elie Weisel is frowned upon usually. But then again I have no idea what may be motivating Finkelstein; nevertheless, it is an intriguing dialogue that deserves to be followed by anyone familiar with the topic. The point I feel that is most relevant in his argument is his notion that abuses of the repayment shemes have led to little of this money being placed in the hands of the actual victims and that Eastern Europe is due for some form of "shakedown" or "extortion" from the same organizations that are abusing the aforementioned system. Jamieson A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- They real issue is not how many Jews were killed. One was too many. The real issue is that certain people claim that the Holocaust was ONLY about Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth. For details see: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/26.html A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/27/00 10:54:42 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't dispute anything you posted Kris regarding Finkelstein's claims. What I find interesting is that Finkelstein comes from a far left ideological position where questioning the motives Again the hegellian dialectic rears its head whether through direct or non-direct action. Many forces have been put into play. The conspiracy's head is in europe and the US is a cartoon, run by secret society buffoons. MHO Om K A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- No I despise Hegel and refuse to be accused of resorting to a "Hegelian dialectic". What is in contention, with Finkelstein and others, is the corruption inherent in the system. While Europe is held to account in re these "Holocaust negotiations" who dares to question the motives of Edgar Bronfman? Frankly the idea of finding yet another way to hold Europe and the post-Soviet Warsaw Pact nations hostage to monetary payments (or otherwise) to the USA smacks of a ruthlessly disguised attempt to exert even more control over their economies and force them, kicking, bleeding and screaming, into the global NWO. Essentially what is being demanded of the Swiss, and soon other nations, is a complete tossing up of their sovereignty and economies to US control and approval. If that isn't a conspiracy what is? Jamieson A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Shoah business
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/27/00 12:57:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No I despise Hegel and refuse to be accused of resorting to a "Hegelian dialectic". I don't accuse you. I was talking about how I interperet what you presented. Its just a framework for the false dialectic to hang its hat. yes, the holocaust is used by some for less than noble purposes, and the whole german-jewish question was chosen many years ago and has evovled into its own way of disinvoling people in what is really going on. MHO OM K A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html A HREF="http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
