Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi, On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert wrote: > > I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, > to do this via a GR. The mildest vote in the U.S. House of Representatives is the naming of a U.S. Post Office. I think it would be such a vote. How can someone not be for it? By the way, we are behind the times. Many universities have avoided the term since 2016. [2] It was also in the newspapers a year ago. > the GR should give the new name I did not wish to bind future generations. > just because some group of racists happens to use the same word For better or for worse, we are part of a larger world. For the German speakers among us, it may make sense that "Führer" isn't a great word, either. [1] We live with history. > did you engage with the FTP master team That would not achieve the intended purpose. Voting in unison can be therapeutic for a group. Our discussions are too aggressive or accusatory, and too long. For once, there would be peace. We can use a little more consensus. Isn't this conversation milder and shorter than most? > Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more inspiration to do good. Some call it culture. The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better. > I'd suggest the debian archive team Personally, I like Archive Operations. I also had the FTP vs HTTP thingy on my mind, but all the technical questions miss the human point: It was to seek common ground among people. > It is *very* silly I was not offended. Please call me anything—just do not lie. (You didn't.) Kind regards Felix Lechner [1] Given the extraordinary atrocities, that comparison is only illustrative. It was also not my idea, but I can't find the reference. [2] https://www.thecollegefix.com/rice-u-away-master-term-cites-negative-historical-connotation/
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 16306 March 1977, Felix Lechner wrote: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about. I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is, to do this via a GR. Without even ever asking the team what they think about a change. Not that I am against a change, and I can even see some of the reasoning behind it. I'm sure the team can find something entirely without an entirely needless GR. Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start with hostnames for example). -- bye, Joerg
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
> While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated > technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we > should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves. This doesn't change anything about this thread or this email, but in the spirit of trying to be really clear, I believe master is a harmful word as well, even if it's used in a sense where the implication is not slavery -- since it still causes harm to our friends working alongside us to create an operating system. I've done the best I can to fix it where I see it but still live with legacy usage. My position is that there is no part of the name "ftp master" that I find particularly relevant anymore. Part two of my position is that Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project. It takes us eons to do anything major, and if that decision is perceived as controversial in any way, it takes an order of magnitude longer. With a lot of hostility and the same conversations but with a different flavor of the year. At this point I could script half the traffic on -vote and -project. A GR will serve to turn something that can be done by under 10 people into a series of tragic and passive aggressive blog posts around the etymology of words. To be honest, I have better ways to spend my time. It strikes me as possible and likely the ftpteam agrees that the name is outmoded (both for "ftp" and "master") and can make the change internally (if I had my way, "debian archive team"), or internally with the DPL if that's something that needs to be done. Doing a GR is a signal of failure to let those doing the work make their own decision on their responsibilities, in my mind. The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A records[1][2] Fondly, paultag [1]: this is actually going to be hard :) [2]: I may live to regret these words
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
> "Timo" == Timo Röhling writes: Timo> I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL Timo> can agree, including the current one. I would also happily Timo> ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project Timo> should have a say. What I do not want is force a GR decision Timo> upon them. +1 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
Hi Felix, * Felix Lechner [2021-11-03 14:27]: I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. [...] PROPOSED TEXT In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] shocks the conscience. Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the "master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. "Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) [3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster [4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", https://ftp-master.debian.org/ [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard I'm not going to repeat Karsten's arguments; I agree with him that our usage of master is not associated with slavery in such a way that we absolutely need to abandon the word. Neither is wizard (unless anyone insists on "Grand Wizard" as title). While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves. I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL can agree, including the current one. I would also happily ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project should have a say. What I do not want is force a GR decision upon them. Cheers Timo -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ╭╮ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ │ Timo Röhling │ ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │ ⠈⠳⣄ ╰╯ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
On 11/3/21 10:27 PM, Felix Lechner wrote: > Hi, > > I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution. > > Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has > received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the > "master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] Gosh... it's becoming crazy... Let's rename the FTP master team because FTP is obsolete, not because of "master" which is there in the sense "professor", or the one who knows (like Chinese "xifu"). If we're about to engage once more in such a SJW thing for the wrong reasons, misunderstanding the word "master" in this case. I'll vote no! > There should be little controversy. There is: you are mistaking with the meaning of "master" in this case. We aren't the slaves of the FTP master team!!! > What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! It is *very* silly to do a GR for such a (wrong) thing. Please don't waste the time of everyone. We have other procedures in Debian, like asking the DPL to do it, if the FTP master team agrees. Also, did you engage with the FTP master team at least, before writing this message? That would be appropriate, IMO. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) P.S: Please do not take it the wrong way: saying something is silly is not the same as calling someone silly... I do respect Felix (and everyone else), and in this instance as well.
Re: Renaming the FTP Masters
I agree. I also don't know if this is something we can just do with the DPL or not. The name master isn't great, as is ftp. No one has suggested a name yet. If this was my proposal, I'd suggest the debian archive team. Why can't we just change the name without a GR between the ftpteam and DPL? Paul On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 6:45 PM Scott Kitterman wrote: > > > On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner < > felix.lech...@lease-up.com> wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General > Resolution. > > > >Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has > >received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the > >"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4] > > > >There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could > >all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free > >software! > > > >What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading! > > > >Kind regards > >Felix Lechner > > > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd > >[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/ > >[3] > https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/ > >[4] > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html > > > >* * * > > > >PROPOSED TEXT > > > >In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project > >will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master" > >has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1] > > > >While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as > >a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the > >word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3] > >shocks the conscience. > > > >Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also > >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard" > >to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the > >use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members. > > > >Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the > >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment. > > > >"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass) > > > >[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery > >[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) > >[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", > >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster > >[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", > >https://ftp-master.debian.org/ > >[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard > > > > I'd suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR > should give the new name. Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time. > > Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be > done quickly if it's to be done. > > Scott K > >
